[nanaholic]

So is the MDR-R10 not a good headphone by today's standards?

[Mod Edited]

Simply put - no. Technically; it measures rather poorly. The FR shows that is is a reverse U-shape which is the opposite of the Harmen Curve, and bass roll off too early compared to modern headphones so low end will be leaving a lot to be desired.

So the idea that Sony hasn't produced anything to that level is objectively not support by measurements. Using today's measurement-centric way of evaluating the R10, it would likely be deemed too bright and mid-centric and bass doesn't go low enough to justify it's equivalent of 4000 dollar in today's money.

 

[purk]

Beside the bass deficiency, I really can’t find anything wrong with them. They are just as detailed as anything else out there and quite stellar in midrange region. Soundstage size, width, and depth are even better than the HD800. The imaging and layering ability are also top class. The midrange is simply gorgeous though. It’s a genre specific headphones and not an all rounder. I agree that the bass is clearly not cutting it.

I used to take the R10 to the local meets and many listeners thought of them as the most natural headphones out there. Others simply didn’t like them due its bass light nature.

 

[sennfan83261]

[Mod Edited]

Beside the bass deficiency, I really can’t find anything wrong with them. They are just as detailed as anything else out there and quite stellar in midrange region. Soundstage size, width, and depth are even better than the HD800. The midrange is simply gorgeous. But I agree that the bass is clearly not cutting it.

You are supposed to listen with your eyes, not your ears.

 

[nanaholic]

Beside the bass deficiency, I really can’t find anything wrong with them. They are just as detailed as anything else out there and quite stellar in midrange region. Soundstage size, width, and depth are even better than the HD800. The midrange is simply gorgeous. But I agree that the bass is clearly not cutting it.

And a lot of people will also defend the new MDR-Z1R saying it has very wide and 3D soundstage and a tasty bottom end that's unrivalled by most except the best orthos, and don't hear that 10k spike that was blown way out of proportion and to ignore that review which-shall-not-be-named.

Point is, Sony headphones never measures particularly well, and applying modern standards and reviewing methodology to the R10, it would most certainly be roasted. So saying that the R10 hasn't been beaten by Sony themselves is a rather heavily loaded subjective opinion which seems to be driven more by its rarity and nostalgia, rather than objectivity. But that's the nature of this hobby anyway.

And FWIW, still doesn't excuse Hifiman for ripping off the design.

 

[nanaholic]

[Mod Edited]

This doesn't contradict what I said - the commonly accepted view for today is that a desirable FR should be slightly V shaped rather than completely flat, an a mid-emphasis exactly means it is reverse U-shaped, AND it means it's not "neutral".

All of these points would mean the R10 loses big marks as a TOTL flagship review using modern reviewing standards.

 

[purk]

And a lot of people will also defend the new MDR-Z1R saying it has very wide and 3D soundstage and a tasty bottom end that's unrivalled by most except the best orthos, and don't hear that 10k spike that was blown way out of proportion and to ignore that review which-shall-not-be-named.

Point is, Sony headphones never measures particularly well, and applying modern standards and reviewing methodology to the R10, it would most certainly be roasted. So saying that the R10 hasn't been beaten by Sony themselves is a rather heavily loaded subjective opinion which seems to be driven more by its rarity and nostalgia, rather than objectivity. But that's the nature of this hobby anyway.

And FWIW, still doesn't excuse Hifiman for ripping off the design.

Not to get off topic here but I had the MDR-Z1R and the size and depth of soundstage is only very good but not as realistic as even the CD3000 so let alone the original R10. The Qualia 010 is actually the best Sony headphones when it comes to speed, clarity, layering ability, and size of the staging . Bass is super tight and treble is one of its most impressive quality. It’s downfall is the midrange. All I am trying to say here is that we all have different set of standards and don’t forget our preference. I agree though that the R10 is simply not cutting it on raps, hard rock, or heavy metal but they are simply awesome with vocal, strings, violin, and many orchestral music. It’s a genre specific headphones and not an all rounder. I am curious what the HE-R10 will sound like.

@Hirsch, I saw that you are watching this thread. Would mind post a few things about the original R10?

 

[kman1211]

[Mod Edited]

This doesn't contradict what I said - the commonly accepted view for today is that a desirable FR should be slightly V shaped rather than completely flat, an a mid-emphasis exactly means it is reverse U-shaped, AND it means it's not "neutral".

All of these points would mean the R10 loses big marks as a TOTL flagship review using modern reviewing standards.

Modern reviewers and headphone manufacturers do tend to focus on the Harman Target curve or something similar as being the definition of neutral and in the current measurement focused reviews headphones that don’t follow the accepted curve are often dismissed or ignored regardless of their actual sound quality and even if they measure well in aspects other than FR response.

What I think some people are not getting is you’re simply talking about modern reviewing standards; which whether people agree with or not is something they have to figure out on their own but reviewers often shape the market and flagships that don’t meet the status quo may not be successful due to it.

 

[KPzypher]

Modern reviewers and headphone manufacturers do tend to focus on the Harman Target curve or something similar as being the definition of neutral and in the current measurement focused reviews headphones that don’t follow the accepted curve are often dismissed or ignored regardless of their actual sound quality and even if they measure well in aspects other than FR response.

What I think some people are not getting is you’re simply talking about modern reviewing standards; which whether people agree with or not is something they have to figure out on their own but reviewers often shape the market and flagships that don’t meet the status quo may not be successful due to it.

BINGO!
Harman curve is just a target FR based on "generalized" listener preference.

Some people prefer boosted bass, some like forward mids, and some enjoy music with treble emphasis. People perceive and process dips and peaks differently. Truth is we all have our own definition of what 'ideal sound' should be.

Not sure why some people are so stuck on the Harman curve. I understand and respect measurements when it comes to measuring things like 'distortion,' but when it comes to sound signature, I know what like and don't need a graph telling me what to look for. I'd rather have something that sounds pleasing to my ears, rather than trying to convince myself not to like the HP because it doesn't closely follow the Harman target.

 

[6PANDEMONIUM6]

Seriously? A chi-fi R10 clone? I thought that you were better than this Hifiman. . . .

This isn't a joke, you're supposed to be of the world's best headphone manufacturers. $5500 for a closed back, Planar, R-10 knockoff?

You are not being a clown, you have become the entire circus.

 

[WadaHiFi]

Seriously? A chi-fi R10 clone? I thought that you were better than this Hifiman. . . .

This isn't a joke, you're supposed to be of the world's best headphone manufacturers. $5500 for a closed back, Planar, R-10 knockoff?

You are not being a clown, you have become the entire circus.

plus it is bt too

 

[Edric Li]

BINGO!
Harman curve is just a target FR based on "generalized" listener preference.

Some people prefer boosted bass, some like forward mids, and some enjoy music with treble emphasis. People perceive and process dips and peaks differently. Truth is we all have our own definition of what 'ideal sound' should be.

Not sure why some people are so stuck on the Harman curve. I understand and respect measurements when it comes to measuring things like 'distortion,' but when it comes to sound signature, I know what like and don't need a graph telling me what to look for. I'd rather have something that sounds pleasing to my ears, rather than trying to convince myself not to like the HP because it doesn't closely follow the Harman target.

Completely agreed. I personally am not a fan of the Harman curve, in ear or over ear, and I think it has to do to a certain degree with their methodology. Headphones listening suffers from fatigue factors to a much higher degree than speakers. Lab listening speaks more about the wow-factor of a headphone than the enjoyment over long listening sessions.

 

[elvergun]

Imagine if this is a Deva or 400i 2020 with wood cups...and a $$$$ price tag.

Whatever it is, I hope owners don't open the box just to find out that one of the drivers is not working.

 

[genck]

Whatever it is, I hope owners don't open the box just to find out that one of the drivers is not working.

Nah, that will happen 30 seconds after the music starts

 

[sennfan83261]

Very sad to see them exploiting the law in this controversial way.

Unless the MDR-10 term is trademarked and is active, how is it exploiting the law? The MDR-10 patents are expired, thus the subject matter that they claimed are in the public domain for anyone to use. Of course, that does not shield Hifiman's HE-R10 from criticisms of being a knock-off, copycat, being unoriginal, etc. Imagine the criticism when the sound quality of the HE-R10 is found out to be a step down from Sony's MDR-10. A lot of popcorn will be had then.

 

[Edric Li]

Fang Bian said in the product release presentation, streamed live, "I checked (the law), they (Sony) can't take me to court (for copying their design)."

This man is not paying no homage. This man has no dignity.

For Mandarin speakers, here's the full live stream of Fang Bian's presentation:
https://taobaolive.taobao.com/room/index.htm?feedId=274521788743

43:30 - Bian says Sony R10 is not as good as people claims it to be. He prefers Bose NC700, Sony XB900N and Sony WH-1000XM3 over Sony R10. (Edit: see Bian's clarification: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hif...k-headphone-from-hifiman.939483/post-15792113)
49:30 - Bian addresses the haters, "I know people out there will accuse us of copying Sony. This product is not paying homage to Sony ('s design). Sony and I are competitors. Homage or not, all we (Hifiman and Sony) should care about is making good product. Even though Sony owns more market share, you (Sony) won't be able to sue me. I researched Sony's patents; they are expired. (Audience applaud in laughter)"