[KPzypher]

Flagship HP's are almost always way beyond their respective points of diminishing returns, especially since Focal threw down their $4,000 gauntlet in the form of their Utopia; I know that a TOTL Stax setup has been around for silly money even longer, but Stax fans are a weird bunch . Having auditioned the Utopia, LCD-4, SR-009+BHSE, and Verite closed, I realized that I didn't really need them despite all of them sounding very nice. I wasn't reduced to tears nor was there any FOMO pangs in my heart when I left the dealer with only the HE-500 that I brought along.

I honestly don't see the necessity of owning a flagship for the sake of owning a flagship. With that in mind, I couldn't care less what Fang decides to charge for the MDR-HE-R10. If his idea of an homage to the MDR-R10 is to copy the cup design and its MSRP (adjusting for inflation), then let him. The market will decide whether the product will succeed or fail.

Compare the build quality of Focal Utopia/Stellia against HFM's similarly priced products. I say there's a huge gap in build quality or materiel used between the two.

I'm not arguing HFM products doesn't sound good. That's all subjective so I'm not gonna argue with anyone on that front. I'm just saying its build quality doesn't correlate with their asking price. The build quality is similar across their lineup.

If Sony's R10 did not exist, what components of HE-R10 in today's standard are considered exotic??? That is my point.

 

[gikigill]

So, even if you just copied the housing and the R10 in the name, then it is still a copy.

I see people keep mentioning PHD degrees...last time I checked, no PHD had the privileges or rights to start copying

While you are at it, can I request an HE-OMahGawd to pay a homage to Stax-OmeGa ?
you can continue using Shangrila and Susvara drivers with the copies housing and the name can altered a bit to sound similar OMahGawd!!

Thank you

The whole debate reminds of Jeremy Clarksons youtube video titled "Top Gear Copyright Infringement".

He might be a PhD in Nanotech but building a nano diaphragm and building a reliable nano diaphragm are two entirely separate things.

Theres a good reason why the Sennheiser HD800/S still stands strong after over a decade while no one remembers Hifiman from that era as most of them have probably disintegrated/rusted at this point.

 

[gikigill]

Compare the build quality of Focal Utopia/Stellia against HFM's similarly priced products. I say there's a huge gap in build quality or materiel used between the two.

I'm not arguing HFM products doesn't sound good. That's all subjective so I'm not gonna argue with anyone on that front. I'm just saying its build quality doesn't correlate with their asking price. The build quality is similar across their lineup.

If Sony's R10 did not exist, what components of HE-R10 in today's standard are considered exotic??? That is my point.

Amen.

The copycat Hifiman R-10 draws all of its legitimacy and existence from the original Sony R-10.

Its sort of an illegitimate child of a King and will never inherit the throne.

EDIT: Since Hifiman is really into Indian names, they should read about Karna from the Mahabharata, who was birthed by the Queen Kunti before marriage who also gave birth to the 5 Pandavas, the protaganists or good guys in the epic but Karna was never accepted as the lawful ruler or as a heir in line to the throne despite being equal in abilities.

He was abandoned at birth and picked up by a family of charioteers and was thus a charioteer and not a king or heir in line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karna

The Hifiman Karna has quite the ring to it.

 

[kp297]

Compare the build quality of Focal Utopia/Stellia against HFM's similarly priced products. I say there's a huge gap in build quality or materiel used between the two.

I'm not arguing HFM products doesn't sound good. That's all subjective so I'm not gonna argue with anyone on that front. I'm just saying its build quality doesn't correlate with their asking price. The build quality is similar across their lineup.

If Sony's R10 did not exist, what components of HE-R10 in today's standard are considered exotic??? That is my point.

Amen.

The copycat Hifiman R-10 draws all of its legitimacy and existence from the original Sony R-10.

Its sort of an illegitimate child of a King and will never inherit the throne.

Components isn't the whole story. The implementation of those components is what's key. At the end of the day, sound quality, not the exotic component ingredient list, is why audiophiles purchase a particular gear. HE-R10 addresses a unique market need, and is exotic in what it offers. As of this post, I can not find other alternatives for a flagship nano-scale diaphragm closed back planars. With HE-R10 enough people have been thrilled with Hifiman flagship sound HE1000se and Susvara, so many know what they’re getting into.

Lastly, until the unit is released into the public, a reliable judgement can not be made. Pretending the original R10 can not, in any way, be improved on doesn't make much sense. R10 was manufactured with limitations of the era. Sony have made it clear with their existing product line that they wish to pursue a new house sound with a unique model line such as the Z1R, and not make a R10 direct successor. Ideally Sony would have made a direct R10 successor by now leveraging existing technologies, but they have not. The onus is on them to do this.

Don't get me wrong, charging flagship money for something that copies the same iconic design as another company is not a good thing, and in my eyes is in the same moral standing as IP theft. Hifiman had the opportunity to be original/distinctive and failed to seize that opportunity.

TLDR; Let's just wait it out before throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Worst case scenario, Hifiman becomes the laughing stock of this industry for years to come and pivots accordingly.

 

[headwig]

So, even if you just copied the housing and the R10 in the name, then it is still a copy.

I see people keep mentioning PHD degrees...last time I checked, no PHD had the privileges or rights to start copying

What exactly is wrong with copying one element of an old headphone design? By all accounts it was a good design. It's not made any more, and it's not under patent. Sony isn't planning to make money off the design, and Sony isn't complaining. What's the problem here? What are these privileges and rights you talk about - doesn't everyone have these, for something that's not under a current patent?

 

[gikigill]

What exactly is wrong with copying one element of an old headphone design? By all accounts it was a good design. It's not made any more, and it's not under patent. Sony isn't planning to make money off the design, and Sony isn't complaining. What's the problem here?

A few little things called shame, ethics, research and development for headphones and a sense of self awareness.
Now excuse me while i go to the shops in my Merkedes-Bonz with a three pointed star on the hood

 

[dleblanc343]

Moving on...

If I'm not mistaken, HE-R10 looks to be the very first hifiman headphone using solid wood, not just veneer. I remember Fang stated he used veneer as it was more reliable and didn't crack as often as solid wood. The HE-R10 must have solved this issue for Hifiman to be using solid wood in a flagship design.

False, one of my first HiFiMAN products seemingly uses real wood; the HE5-LE

What exactly is wrong with copying one element of an old headphone design? By all accounts it was a good design.

As a HiFiMAN fanboy, I actually think there is A LOT wrong with copying an old headphone design, particularly in this case where he slaps on identical cups, yet modifies driver configuration altogether. Sony literally engineered that cup specially to achieve a target tuning based on backwall reflections and internal acoustics. The driver config is different in the HE-R10, yet the cups stay identical...? Very questionable and potentially bottlenecking the headphone’s true potential at being something even better if engineered from A to Z.

My 2 cents of course

 

[freeza2001]

In the end of the day, if the He-R10 become a hit. I guarantee you hifiman is gonna pay homage to different headphone down the road. It saves them so much money on design and marketing.

If the vast enthusiastic community has no problem buying expansive knockoff headphone with crap build quality as long it sounds good. Is it really hifimans fault to capitalise on peoples stupidity?

 

[KPzypher]

Components isn't the whole story. The implementation of those components is what's key. At the end of the day, sound quality, not the exotic component ingredient list, is why audiophiles purchase a particular gear. HE-R10 addresses a unique market need, and is exotic in what it offers. As of this post, I can not find other alternatives for a flagship nano-scale diaphragm closed back planars. With HE-R10 enough people have been thrilled with Hifiman flagship sound HE1000se and Susvara, so many know what they’re getting into.

Lastly, until the unit is released into the public, a reliable judgement can not be made. Pretending the original R10 can not, in any way, be improved on doesn't make much sense. R10 was manufactured with limitations of the era. Sony have made it clear with their existing product line that they wish to pursue a new house sound with a unique model line such as the Z1R, and not make a R10 direct successor. Ideally Sony would have made a direct R10 successor by now leveraging existing technologies, but they have not. The onus is on them to do this.

Don't get me wrong, charging flagship money for something that copies the same iconic design as another company is not a good thing, and in my eyes is in the same moral standing as IP theft. Hifiman had the opportunity to be original/distinctive and failed to seize that opportunity.

TLDR; Let's just wait it out before throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Worst case scenario, Hifiman becomes the laughing stock of this industry for years to come and pivots accordingly.

Well that's the thing. Sound quality cannot be the only yardstick in terms of pricing, when 'sound quality' here is subjective. And the manufacturer should definitely not be the ones to pass that verdict. Build quality, craftsmanship, components used all have to be on similar level/comparable to the asking price. Look at Focal Stellia, Meze Empyrean, Sony MDR-Z1r, HP-3, Ether 2, Verite, etc. etc. Sound aside, compare the build quality of those (still far cheaper to boot) to this product that seemingly has the same headband as the $300 Deva? What market need does HE-R10 address? and you still haven't explained what's exotic about this product outside of its copied appearance. Implementation of the components? OK, tell me how it's implemented.

You say reliable judgement cannot be made until it's released. Yet you also say you cannot find other alternatives. And you know this how? Have you auditioned these? And marketing jargon/BS aside, what does nano-scale diaphragm even mean??? Not once have I passed judgement on HE-R10's sound quality (I obviously don't know). But I can visibly see (from videos and pictures online) its build quality and pass my subjective judgement. On the other hand, your entire self-justification is hinged on its alleged sound quality.

This is not about beating the sonic performance of the original R10. I'm sure its not insurmountable to 'sonically' surpass something that came out decades ago with today's technology. It's their reasoning behind the pricing strategy outside of the forced homage to the original R10.

Like I said before, if Sony's R-10 did not exist, what's special about this HE-R10??

I think i've said enough on this topic. I'll take the bench for a while.

 

[KPzypher]

In the end of the day, if the He-R10 become a hit. I guarantee you hifiman is gonna pay homage to different headphone down the road. It saves them so much money on design and marketing.

If the vast enthusiastic community has no problem buying expansive knockoff headphone with crap build quality as long it sounds good. Is it really hifimans fault to capitalise on peoples stupidity?

You're right. You cannot fault the company for consumer behavior. After all, these are for-profit companies.

 

[kp297]

Well that's the thing. Sound quality cannot be the only yardstick in terms of pricing, when 'sound quality' here is subjective. And the manufacturer should definitely not be the ones to pass that verdict. Build quality, craftsmanship, components used all have to be on similar level/comparable to the asking price. Look at Focal Stellia, Meze Empyrean, Sony MDR-Z1r, HP-3, Ether 2, Verite, etc. etc. Sound aside, compare the build quality of those (still far cheaper to boot) to this product that seemingly has the same headband as the $300 Deva? What market need does HE-R10 address? and you still haven't explained what's exotic about this product outside of its copied appearance. Implementation of the components? OK, tell me how it's implemented.

You say reliable judgement cannot be made until it's released. Yet you also say you cannot find other alternatives. And you know this how? Have you auditioned these? And marketing jargon/BS aside, what does nano-scale diaphragm even mean??? Not once have I passed judgement on HE-R10's sound quality (I obviously don't know). But I can visibly see (from videos and pictures online) its build quality and pass my subjective judgement. On the other hand, your entire self-justification is hinged on its alleged sound quality.

This is not about beating the sonic performance of the original R10. I'm sure its not insurmountable to 'sonically' surpass something that came out decades ago with today's technology. It's their reasoning behind the pricing strategy outside of the forced homage to the original R10.

Like I said before, if Sony's R-10 did not exist, what's special about this HE-R10??

I think i've said enough on this topic. I'll take the bench for a while.

Ok, I'll break this down as you've missed some points. I'll join you on the bench, we can share some Gatorade.


1. "Sound aside, compare the build quality of those (still far cheaper to boot) to this product that seemingly has the same headband as the $300 Deva? What market need does HE-R10 address? and you still haven't explained what's exotic about this product outside of its copied appearance."
You have issue with the product using same quality headband as Deva. Until you've used the HE-R10 why draw judgement on a product's ergonomics if you haven't used it? If it's comfortable, why is it an issue? Also I understand you've been quite negative with this product since the first pages of this thread. We understand, you're not purchasing the product. Hifiman has a MO of building for sound quality with build quality taking a back seat. Other companies like Focal or Meze have been able to execute on both fronts, Hifiman has not.
You've asked what need the HE-R10 address and what's exotic about it? I've already answered this. I'll repeat myself once more for you. It's a closed back planar magnetic headphone using a nano meter grade diaphragm. Furthermore, this headphone can be powered off a wireless DAC/amp solution.
You ask me how components are implemented? If you would like to see the diagram, refer to the link I posted earlier (https://www.itheat.com/view/18899.html) scroll half way down, you should see a diagram on how Hifiman implemented this. If you need further questions on this answered, you should message Hifiman.


2. "Yet you also say you cannot find other alternatives. And you know this how? Have you auditioned these? And marketing jargon/BS aside, what does nano-scale diaphragm even mean???"
I can't find alternative closed back headphones using nano-scale diaphragms that can be powered off a wireless DAC/amp solution. If you can provide one, I'm all ears (pun intended haha). I used 'nano scale' phrase terminology as this is how Audeze describes it (https://www.audeze.com/blogs/technology-and-innovation/diaphragms-nano-scale-uniforce-ultra-thin). Hifiman refers to this technology as nano meter grade (https://store.hifiman.com/index.php/he-1000.html). Such terms can be used interchangeably in this context. A 'nano scale' refers to the membrane thickness on a nano meter level, exact thickness is hard to measure. This requires more expense from companies as yield rate is generally lower than non nano-meter grade diaphragms due to devleopment being more intensive and complicated (you can contact Audeze or Hifiman for confirmation of this). I have auditioned LCD XC and is not suitable for me as it lacks detail HP's like Stellia provides. It also doesn't offer the same features or technologies as the HE-R10. Do not completely judge a product without using it. This concept can apply to people as well..

3. "On the other hand, your entire self-justification is hinged on its alleged sound quality...this is not about beating the sonic performance of the original R10."
I don't think you've seen Fang's product presentation. Please watch Fang's presenation on Taobao Live. He mentions looking to surpass Sony's R10 by leveraging existing technology. You mention "self-justification". Not even sure where this comes from, please elaborate.

At this point I think this conversation is a bit pointless as we're going in circles. I am giving the HE-R10 a chance, you seemed opposed to this idea. We can message via DM's instead of wasting everyone's time with this. I've preordered my pair of HE-R10's as I'm very curious what Hifiman is doing and would love to provide the community some feedback. This is a turning point for the company in my eyes. I do have some flagship gear to compare the HE-R10 with as well and provide personal evaluation. I have put my money where my mouth is. I doubt you will do the same, but please prove me wrong.

Now, I think we've quenched our thirst and relaxed enough on the bench. The coach is signalling, time to head back in!

 

[kman1211]

Well that's the thing. Sound quality cannot be the only yardstick in terms of pricing, when 'sound quality' here is subjective. And the manufacturer should definitely not be the ones to pass that verdict. Build quality, craftsmanship, components used all have to be on similar level/comparable to the asking price. Look at Focal Stellia, Meze Empyrean, Sony MDR-Z1r, HP-3, Ether 2, Verite, etc. etc. Sound aside, compare the build quality of those (still far cheaper to boot) to this product that seemingly has the same headband as the $300 Deva? What market need does HE-R10 address? and you still haven't explained what's exotic about this product outside of its copied appearance. Implementation of the components? OK, tell me how it's implemented.

You say reliable judgement cannot be made until it's released. Yet you also say you cannot find other alternatives. And you know this how? Have you auditioned these? And marketing jargon/BS aside, what does nano-scale diaphragm even mean??? Not once have I passed judgement on HE-R10's sound quality (I obviously don't know). But I can visibly see (from videos and pictures online) its build quality and pass my subjective judgement. On the other hand, your entire self-justification is hinged on its alleged sound quality.

This is not about beating the sonic performance of the original R10. I'm sure its not insurmountable to 'sonically' surpass something that came out decades ago with today's technology. It's their reasoning behind the pricing strategy outside of the forced homage to the original R10.

Like I said before, if Sony's R-10 did not exist, what's special about this HE-R10??

I think i've said enough on this topic. I'll take the bench for a while.

Those old drivers are often better than people often like to admit. I’ve heard numerous older headphones and modified some. Some of those old headphone drivers can completely outshine most modern offerings. I actually doubt the dynamic driver in the HE-R10 can compare to Sony’s which is actually an exceptional driver. Would love to hear what an Sony R10 driver is capable of in a different housing built around it meant for a more contemporary tuning. It didn’t take me long to realize the driver on the MDR-R10 is above most (you really noticed it with extended listening), and people need to also realize the Fostex bio-cellulose is very different than Sony’s, the driver properties are very different, they’re not even really the same material when it comes down to it. Throwing a modern bio-cellulose in the R10 chassis probably wouldn’t work as intended, so I can see why Hifiman didn’t choose a biocellulose driver.

From pictures the Hifiman dynamic driver doesn’t look all special, quite similar to many Chinese OEM drivers which it probably is, doubt hifiman even made its own dynamic driver whereas Sony did a lot of R&D to make their drivers and the quality control for the R10 driver was of a higher standard than that of the similar CD3000 driver for instance. Hifiman makes their own planar drivers of course but there is nothing to indicate their dynamics are made by them. The massive price difference between the dynamic and planar driver and the glimpses I got of the dynamic driver indicates to me that the dynamic driver is likely an OEM driver. There appears to be a distinct lack of craftsmanship and R&D that went into the original R10 to make the Hifiman even remotely justify the cost in comparison. It’s only really being sold for a lot because it can, the original R10 was a statement product meant to showcase what Sony could do with a cost no object headphone. The Sony R10 is more like the Orpheus, etc. in what it represents.

 

[KPzypher]

Alright I'm back, and I promise this is my last comment for you It was quite fun/interesting I might add.

And you seem to have missed all of my questions/points.

1. You have issue with the product using same quality headband as Deva. Until you've used the HE-R10 why draw judgement on a product's ergonomics if you haven't used it? If it's comfortable, why is it an issue? Also I understand you've been quite negative with this product since the first pages of this thread. We understand, you're not purchasing the product. Hifiman has a MO of building for sound quality with build quality taking a back seat. Other companies like Focal or Meze have been able to execute on both fronts, Hifiman has not.
You've asked what need the HE-R10 address and what's exotic about it? I've already answered this. I'll repeat myself once more for you. It's a closed back planar magnetic headphone using a nano meter grade diaphragm. Furthermore, this headphone can be powered off a wireless DAC/amp solution.
You ask me how components are implemented? If you would like to see the diagram, refer to the link I posted earlier (https://www.itheat.com/view/18899.html) scroll half way down, you should see a diagram on how Hifiman implemented this. If you need further questions on this answered, you should message Hifiman.

I don't have issue with the product using the same low quality headband. I have issue with how much they're charging for it. And I haven't mentioned ergonomics nor comfort in any of my statements. I was referring to the build quality to price ratio. And again, you haven't answered any part of what makes this exotic or great for that matter, other than regurgitate/post link of HFM's marketing presentation, which has zero bearing on sound quality. The diagram doesn't prove any of your assertions on what makes this a great HP. Are you really that naive? And I don't read Chinese.

2. I can't find alternative closed back headphones using nano-scale diaphragms that can be powered off a wireless DAC/amp solution. If you can provide one, I'm all ears (pun intended haha). I used 'nano scale' phrase terminology as this is how Audeze describes it (https://www.audeze.com/blogs/technology-and-innovation/diaphragms-nano-scale-uniforce-ultra-thin). Hifiman refers to this technology as nano meter grade (https://store.hifiman.com/index.php/he-1000.html). Such terms can be used interchangeably in this context. A 'nano scale' refers to the membrane thickness on a nano meter level, exact thickness is hard to measure. This requires more expense from companies as yield rate is generally lower than non nano-meter grade diaphragms due to devleopment being more intensive and complicated (you can contact Audeze or Hifiman for confirmation of this). I have auditioned LCD XC and is not suitable for me as it lacks detail HP's like Stellia provides. It also doesn't offer the same features or technologies as the HE-R10. Do not completely judge a product without using it. This concept can apply to people as well..

You need $5K to make a bluetooth headphone?? Again, all you're doing is posting links to manufacturer's marketing statements which has zero bearing on sound quality. What does 'nano scale' have to do with sound you've never heard before?? You believe all the marketing gimmick/ploy/statements? Here's a good one for you.

"This product capitalizes on two specific properties of mineral crystals; these properties - vibration absorption and Radio Frequency Interference/Electromagnetic Interference (RFI/EMI) absorption - are the consequence of atomic mechanisms in the crystals' highly symmetrical structures. But, not necessarily, as we will see below, the consequence of piezoelectricity."

It's about an audiophile stone/rock if you're wondering, which is utter nonsense. It's a manufacturer statement, so I'm sure you'll take it to heart. It's probably fake, but hope you get my point. You sound nothing more than an uninformed buyer falling prey to marketing nonsense if that's all you're going off of (manufacturer statements/claims).

3. I don't think you've seen Fang's product presentation. Please watch Fang's presenation on Taobao Live. He mentions looking to surpass Sony's R10 by leveraging existing technology. You mention "self-justification". Not even sure where this comes from, please elaborate.

OK. The main source of your entire argument/logic was Fang's product presentation?? WOW. That makes perfect sense. He mentions looking to surpass Sony's R10? That must be god's words then huh? When I mentioned self-justification, I was referring to your reasoning behind your enthusiasm/support regarding this product. I think the product is crap because it's not worth the asking price for the reasons I've stated multiple times, whereas you think it's great because what, "Fang said so?" lol brilliant.

I am giving the HE-R10 a chance, you seemed opposed to this idea. I've preordered my pair of HE-R10's as I'm very curious what Hifiman is doing and would love to provide the community some feedback. This is a turning point for the company in my eyes. I do have some flagship gear to compare the HE-R10 with as well and provide personal evaluation. I have put my money where my mouth is. I doubt you will do the same, but please prove me wrong.

I applaud your decision to give it a shot based on manufacturer presentation! And I'm not being facetious, maybe a little. And I will thank you in advance for providing feedback to this community, and can only wish it's a fair one. And to close it out, sincerely hope it's well worth your money.

Thanks and I'll let you close this conversation out. GL!

 

[freeza2001]

The enthusiastic headphone market is slowly becoming the fashion industry.

People are buying expansive headphone or equipment to show off their wealth. Or to self satisfy their superiority complex.

HE-R10 is the direct result of this mentality.

A 5k headphone with rubbish build quality amd a copied design.

And people are gonna buy it cuz of the price and name alone.

I am a new comer to this community, and I want out already.

 

[SHAMuuu]

The enthusiastic headphone market is slowly becoming the fashion industry.

People are buying expansive headphone or equipment to show off their wealth. Or to self satisfy their superiority complex.

HE-R10 is the direct result of this mentality.

A 5k headphone with rubbish build quality amd a copied design.

And people are gonna buy it cuz of the price and name alone.

I am a new comer to this community, and I want out already.

There is a small group of DIY'ers who have been dreaming of certain parts, and well i wouldn't mind waiting till some of these are on the used market for parts.

Though I pieced this together with some half decent parts, i would love a shell of these he-r10 to throw some dt48 drivers in. . If the HE-R10 isn't legendary, i'm sure it will make for a "legendary shell" for vintage drivers from the DIY'ers.