[kp297]

Wasn't the use of veneer related to wood decorative rings surrounding baffles and the like such as Audeze's LCD-2,3,4 lines and Hifiman's upper-tier offerings. Did the context include wood cups used to close off headphones? I vaguely recall him saying or showing bouncing a veneer ring off the ground.

Yes, to my recollection the use of veneer was was chosen instead of solid wood decorative rings. Audeze currently offers solid wood rings on LCD models and a solid wood cup headphone (LCDXC) but Hifiman only offers veneer apart from HE10. This is a change from Hifimans previous approach, I was surprised Hifiman went with solid wood and not an artificial material for HE-R10.

 

[Licht]

Yes, to my recollection the use of veneer was was chosen instead of solid wood decorative rings. Audeze currently offers solid wood rings on LCD models and a solid wood cup headphone (LCDXC) but Hifiman only offers veneer apart from HE10. This is a change from Hifimans previous approach, I was surprised Hifiman went with solid wood and not an artificial material for HE-R10.

IIRC, prototype HE560 had solid wooden cups (or rings? to say precise), but it had cracking issues and became veneer in the series production model.

And it is just my hope but let's wait for HE-CD3000 the cheaper version of R10.
I had MDR-CD3000 for a while in early '90s and had impressive sound, especially the soundstage.

 

[KPzypher]

It is so expensive because it sounds so good. That is the reasoning of Mr. Fang.

That's a poor reasoning. Consumers should be the judge of 'good sound,' not the designer nor the manufacturer.

Product pricing should fundamentally be cost-based (total cost + percentage markup), not arbitrarily set based on 'subjective' sound characteristics, particularly when there's no widely accepted 'set standard' in measuring sound quality. Rapacious percentage markup is plaguing today's top tier (judged based on pricing not sound) headphones. This is nothing better than saying 'Lets keep testing the waters and charge consumers the highest amount possible until the market retaliates.' Who are we really helping? The only competition these companies face is their own attempt to up the ante to gain more profit margin with the next product in development. This notion IMO is visible in HFM's pricing strategy, where the gap in build quality (materiel cost/craftsmanship) throughout their lineup isn't particularly wide in comparison to the price difference between their entry level and so called 'flagship' products.

People often say the high-end audio market is hyper-inflated, yet we continuously support such products.

 

[kp297]

That's a poor reasoning. Consumers should be the judge of 'good sound,' not the designer nor the manufacturer.

Product pricing should fundamentally be cost-based (total cost + percentage markup), not arbitrarily set based on 'subjective' sound characteristics, particularly when there's no widely accepted 'set standard' in measuring sound quality. Rapacious percentage markup is plaguing today's top tier (judged based on pricing not sound) headphones. This is nothing better than saying 'Lets keep testing the waters and charge consumers the highest amount possible until the market retaliates.' Who are we really helping? The only competition these companies face is their own attempt to up the ante to gain more profit margin with the next product in development. This notion IMO is visible in HFM's pricing strategy, where the gap in build quality (materiel cost/craftsmanship) throughout their lineup isn't particularly wide in comparison to the price difference between their entry level and so called 'flagship' products.

People often say the high-end audio market is hyper-inflated, yet we continuously support such products.

'Hyper-inflated'. What does that even mean? Relative to what? Everyone has different spending power and different tastes. Expensive products are supported because everyone's level of discretionary spending in this hobby is different. The audience of this hobby is continually expanding, and with that, so are the amounts of money folks are willing to spend.

Remember when AKG K3003i was the price ceiling of universal IEMs? Those days are LONG gone. Empire Ears just released a $3500 dollar flagship IEM. MMR came out with Thummim at $4500. Oriolus JP Traillii is released at $6000. This is what happens when an industry matures. Companies make more exotic products with exotic prices.

We shouldn't be telling other people how to spend their money, or set an arbitrary dollar limit. The best we can do is offer a sound critique of the gear and let the reader decide.

 

[Guidostrunk]

I think Fang is a genius! Free markets prevail! Can't wait to purchase some of these goodies!

 

[ThanatosVI]

I think Fang is a genius! Free markets prevail! Can't wait to purchase some of these goodies!

Please do so and give us sound impressions

 

[KPzypher]

'Hyper-inflated'. What does that even mean? Relative to what? Everyone has different spending power and different tastes. Expensive products are supported because everyone's level of discretionary spending in this hobby is different. The audience of this hobby is continually expanding, and with that, so are the amounts of money folks are willing to spend.

Remember when AKG K3003i was the price ceiling of universal IEMs? Those days are LONG gone. Empire Ears just released a $3500 dollar flagship IEM. MMR came out with Thummim at $4500. Oriolus JP Traillii is released at $6000. This is what happens when an industry matures. Companies make more exotic products with exotic prices.

We shouldn't be telling other people how to spend their money, or set an arbitrary dollar limit. The best we can do is offer a sound critique of the gear and let the reader decide.

Do tell me how the industry matured. Just because a company can charge $6k, it's matured? What kind of idiotic nonsense is that? And you call reused cup design/name and cheap ass headband exotic?? Tell me what exotic components are used in this product?? What are you smoking?

Relative to what? Relative to cost of goods sold. What are you basing your logic on?

 

[Mink]

I just keep content in the knowledge that 300 USD buys me an excellent pair of headphones and that I don't need to spend 5k to get my audio kicks
Let other people have their fun with these Hifiman's, I couldn't care less.

 

[KPzypher]

I just keep content in the knowledge that 300 USD buys me an excellent pair of headphones and that I don't need to spend 5k to get my audio kicks
Let other people have their fun with these Hifiman's, I couldn't care less.

But it does affect everyone. I'm willing to pay a fair price for a flagship. But if companies are arbitrarily jacking up prices and it becomes the norm, that has impact on consumers as a whole looking for a quality-built flagship HPs.

But if the fool's definition of mature market equals shoving bazillion BA drivers into an IEM (that was the trend for a while), and calling it a god-tier, I don't know what to tell him.

 

[kp297]

Do tell me how the industry matured. Just because a company can charge $6k, it's matured? What kind of idiotic nonsense is that? And you call reused cup design/name and cheap ass headband exotic?? Tell me what exotic components are used in this product?? What are you smoking?

Relative to what? Relative to cost of goods sold. What are you basing your logic on?

Ok, I’ll clarify for you

If we look at flagship tier IEM’s nearly ALL use exotic technologies that didn’t exist years ago. I’m referring to electrostatic hybrid IEMs. Such implementations requires higher investment from companies willing to implement them. Yes, there are companies that can provide this for cheaper than Empire Ears or Oriolus (Fearless Dawn Crinicle comes to mind), however the market forces will dictate whether such MSRP can be supported. Also, they all have a different sound. Even if they don't use exotic technologies, they have a unique sound the market supports.

I’m not telling you to buy any of these, no one is forcing you to. Why are you so concerned then? Let companies figure that out. Either they’ll pivot or go under.

Also, when you refer to cost of goods sold how do you know this information? Do you understand the cost and R&D for each firm? Please break it down in a spreadsheet, and have the CEO confirm and sign off on this. Otherwise such comments or assumptions demonstrate ignorance. Nothing more.

Lastly, I’m not smoking anything. Unfortunately I don’t have a BBQ.


Edit: All this outrage regarding price doesn't make much sense to me. This is a LUXURY GOOD. HE-R10 does not constitute an essential living expense. If you're not buying or an investor in Hifiman, then move along.

 

[kp297]

But it does affect everyone. I'm willing to pay a fair price for a flagship. But if companies are arbitrarily jacking up prices and it becomes the norm, that has impact on consumers as a whole looking for a quality-built flagship HPs.

But if the fool's definition of mature market equals shoving bazillion BA drivers into an IEM (that was the trend for a while), and calling it a god-tier, I don't know what to tell him.

I don't think name calling (calling me a fool for instance) is a good place to start my friend. I refer to Socrates “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”.

Moving on, the market experiments with exotic technologies/implementations. Lessons learned from such implementations represents maturing of the market. For some time it was single DD, the hybrid, then BA arms race etc... If you aren't a fan of numerous BA implementations fair enough. I personally think single DD is the best type of IEM sound. But hey, that's the beauty of this hobby, people have different tastes. Consumers are also getting more value and choices as the market matures. Compare what you can get for $200 now versus 5 years ago. Now look 10 years ago.

The value you can get today is fantastic and improves over time. Now let's please stick to the topic of HE-R10. If you wish to discuss this further, I'm open to PM's. But please refrain from name calling

 

[KPzypher]

I don't think name calling (calling me a fool for instance) is a good place to start my friend. I refer to Socrates “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”.

Moving on, the market experiments with exotic technologies/implementations. Lessons learned from such implementations represents maturing of the market. For some time it was single DD, the hybrid, then BA arms race etc... If you aren't a fan of numerous BA implementations fair enough. I personally think single DD is the best type of IEM sound. But hey, that's the beauty of this hobby, people have different tastes. Consumers are also getting more value and choices as the market matures. Compare what you can get for $200 now versus 5 years ago. Now look 10 years ago.

The value you can get today is fantastic and improves over time. Now let's please stick to the topic of HE-R10. If you wish to discuss this further, I'm open to PM's. But please refrain from name calling

A agree. That was uncalled for. Please accept my apologies.

 

[kp297]

A agree. That was uncalled for. Please accept my apologies.

No worries, cheers.

 

[sennfan83261]

But it does affect everyone. I'm willing to pay a fair price for a flagship. But if companies are arbitrarily jacking up prices and it becomes the norm, that has impact on consumers as a whole looking for a quality-built flagship HPs.

Or remember when Sony released the MDR-R10 for $2,500 in 1989 (equivalent to ~$5,200 today)? Oh, wait...

Flagship HP's are almost always way beyond their respective points of diminishing returns, especially since Focal threw down their $4,000 gauntlet in the form of their Utopia; I know that a TOTL Stax setup has been around for silly money even longer, but Stax fans are a weird bunch . Having auditioned the Utopia, LCD-4, SR-009+BHSE, and Verite closed, I realized that I didn't really need them despite all of them sounding very nice. I wasn't reduced to tears nor was there any FOMO pangs in my heart when I left the dealer with only the HE-500 that I brought along.

I honestly don't see the necessity of owning a flagship for the sake of owning a flagship. With that in mind, I couldn't care less what Fang decides to charge for the MDR-HE-R10. If his idea of an homage to the MDR-R10 is to copy the cup design and its MSRP (adjusting for inflation), then let him. The market will decide whether the product will succeed or fail.

 

[Whitigir]

So, even if you just copied the housing and the R10 in the name, then it is still a copy.

I see people keep mentioning PHD degrees...last time I checked, no PHD had the privileges or rights to start copying

While you are at it, can I request an HE-OMahGawd to pay a homage to Stax-OmeGa ?
you can continue using Shangrila and Susvara drivers with the copies housing and the name can altered a bit to sound similar OMahGawd!!

Thank you