[Motocrossman24]

Just curious here. Have you ever measured the power output with the settings that you mention? Because an amp has the ability to put out a specific power output does not mean that it is doing that because the volume control is maxed out. The amount of power being developed is highly dependent on the input levels. Gain figures are just that which means that at any given volume level an input signal is raised a specific amount for output. This of course means that if the input signal is below the reference input sensitivity, the amp will never put out its rated power.

This all means that rated power output and volume control levels can never really tell you what the amp is actually doing. You may well be surprised if you could measure the power output when listening with your described configuration. If the headphone sensitivity ratings are accurate measuring the SPL will directly indicate the power drive levels.

The hard and fast statements many make about a specific headphone requiring X number of watts (You mention 2 watts for the 560) are generally simply not true. In the case of the 560s which I have had from about two months after their release, I would relate that I can use them with even my X5 (1,2 and 3) with plenty of drive available. We are talking maybe 250 mA max here. Do they sound better in other systems? Yes they do, but this is the product of better amplification, not more available power.

When you say that it is "well known" that they need 2 watts I would disagree. My take it that a few people have mistakenly made that kind of statement, and then others have pretty much blindly accepted those statements. It is really not the case!

I was going based off the specs of his amp, which states .25mw into 47ohm, it can do 6watt if you pull the cover and jump the headphone output from the inside...Iv used the he560 on ss/hybrid and otl amps ranging from .2w into 47ohm to just over a watt into 47ohm(tested) and even at 1.2w they don’t have the full range they can have, they’ll eat reasonably loud, but miss the top end and bottom end prescience. Planars especially inefficient ones such as these require serious power to get the benefits of their design, the he6 was not that much worse off in efficiency then the 560 and many weren’t happy with them until pulling 10-20watts through speaker jacks on a stereo amp. The 560 doesn’t need that power, but it will benefit drastically from 3-5watts

 

[mandrake50]

1/2 watt is 500 mW. Sensitivity is 90DB @ 1 mW.
If the amp is well designed it should be fine up to around 115 DB on peaks at lower than measured full power distortion. Which is quite loud. Louder than anyone should listen actually.
If it is designed to have 3 DB or so of headroom above its steady state sine wave max power level, and you listen at 100 DB (long term indicating a death wish for your hearing), it should provide peaks that will almost instantly damage your ears.
Certainly well above a whisper. Which BTW is measured to average about 30 DB.

Just a bit more myth busting...

 

[mandrake50]

I was going based off the specs of his amp, which states .25mw into 47ohm, it can do 6watt if you pull the cover and jump the headphone output from the inside...Iv used the he560 on ss/hybrid and otl amps ranging from .2w into 47ohm to just over a watt into 47ohm(tested) and even at 1.2w they don’t have the full range they can have, they’ll eat reasonably loud, but miss the top end and bottom end prescience. Planars especially inefficient ones such as these require serious power to get the benefits of their design, the he6 was not that much worse off in efficiency then the 560 and many weren’t happy with them until pulling 10-20watts through speaker jacks on a stereo amp. The 560 doesn’t need that power, but it will benefit drastically from 3-5watts

As mentioned I have had 560s around for a long time. I have dragged them to meets and listened with lots of amplification. I personally have had amps here that would do 6 watts into 47 ohms and driven them off of speaker taps of amps like the Hafler DH500 that has the ability to generate an honest 300 watts per channel into 8 ohms. I have certainly found some amplification that made them shine more than others. The best were not always the ones with the most power. Two of my favorites have been the Project Ember with select tubes and the Liquid Carbon. Both max out at about 2 watts into 47 ohms. Of course that is irrelevant, because I have measured power into them at 85 to 90 DB listening levels and we are talking averages in the few tenths of a Watt . Having lots of watts in a well designed amp can make them sound better, but not because of the amps ability to max out at some relatively large number of Watts. It is strictly the design of the amp. It may happen that some high power amps are also expensive and have better designs and this leads to people saying you need X amount of power. But this is not true. It is the design and the character of the amp that is important.

Try getting the 560 out and putting a meter on the line while listening at your chosen level. I believe that you will be extremely surprised at what you measure. Then possibly let me know how having all of this power that is never used in your amp influences the sound. I am interested and will be happy to listen.

 

[DavidA]

@mandrake50, agree that the Ember and Liquid Carbon are great with the HE560 but for me the Lyr2 (with certain tubes) is just a bit better than the Ember most of the time but like you said its more of a synergy thing than "watts" thing.

 

[Motocrossman24]

1/2 watt is 500 mW. Sensitivity is 90DB @ 1 mW.
If the amp is well designed it should be fine up to around 115 DB on peaks at lower than measured full power distortion. Which is quite loud. Louder than anyone should listen actually.
If it is designed to have 3 DB or so of headroom above its steady state sine wave max power level, and you listen at 100 DB (long term indicating a death wish for your hearing), it should provide peaks that will almost instantly damage your ears.
Certainly well above a whisper. Which BTW is measured to average about 30 DB.

Just a bit more myth busting...

1/2 watt into 16ohm...every time you double ohm you half power...he560 are 50ohm, so escentially 4x less power into that then 16ohm

 

[mandrake50]

1/2 watt into 16ohm...every time you double ohm you half power...he560 are 50ohm, so escentially 4x less power into that then 16ohm

First, if you are talking about a fixed source, you are pretty correct. Amplifiers, OTH are not that. In any case lets assume that your claim is accurate for his amp. Specs from Hifiman say the 560 is 47 ohms. A rough estimate is that it would produce more than 200 mW into that. Se my previous post. At steady state that would still kill your ears quickly.
Point is, this idea that you "NEED" multiple watts to drive most any headphones is just completely false. Find an amp that sounds good... and within reason don't focus on the power output.
For the vast majority of cases if it sounds good, be happy. I guess he will figure out is it sounds good... but the max output (again within reason) should not make him decide whether to try it.
0.2 watts will make them plenty loud. Whether he likes the sound, well that is a different subject. Quite simply, the max output numbers will not be the factor to determine this.

 

[mandrake50]

@mandrake50, agree that the Ember and Liquid Carbon are great with the HE560 but for me the Lyr2 (with certain tubes) is just a bit better than the Ember most of the time but like you said its more of a synergy thing than "watts" thing.

David, I tried the original Lyr for a month. Stock Tubes. I sent it back in favor of the Ember. Note though, that was with the original 560. It was too strident for my taste and the cost difference did not make me want it over the Ember or Sunsine 3 that I already had. So it went back.. Of course this was a problem with them for me in general. I did most of the Jerg mods and pad swapped to focus A pads then got some Jerg pads.to try to help this.I got another set a few months back, they definitely sound different. My thoughts could very well have changed with a Lyr 2 or possibly Lyr 3 and the newer 560s. Especially with some tube rolling. As of now, even with the new model I like them better with the Burson CV2 or speaker taps with the Denon X6400H driven by the Oppo BDP 205 than what I remember with the early Lyr. . Of course, that was a very long time ago and audio memory is so short.

 

[DavidA]

David, I tried the original Lyr for a month. Stock Tubes. I sent it back in favor of the Ember. Note though, that was with the original 560. It was too strident for my taste and the cost difference did not make me want it over the Ember or Sunsine 3 that I already had. So it went back.. Of course this was a problem with them for me in general. I did most of the Jerg mods and pad swapped to focus A pads then got some Jerg pads.to try to help this.I got another set a few months back, they definitely sound different. My thoughts could very well have changed with a Lyr 2 or possibly Lyr 3 and the newer 560s. Especially with some tube rolling. As of now, even with the new model I like them better with the Burson CV2 or speaker taps with the Denon X6400H driven by the Oppo BDP 205 than what I remember with the early Lyr. . Of course, that was a very long time ago and audio memory is so short.

When you say "original" HE560 you mean the one that was real wood which IIRC was only available pre-order? Or is it the original retail version with SMC jacks and a nice wooden box? I have 2 of the SMC jack versions (gave one to my son) but I've never heard the original all wood version since I don't know anyone who did the pre-order.

Its interesting that you already had the Ember since I got an Ember after having the Lyr2 since a few other Head-Fi members in the HD650 thread highly recommended them and my old GF liked that there was a LED under the tube that could be changed to pink (her favorite color) so she bought one for me since I had just sold my WA7d which was a beautiful amp but the DAC section wasn't up to par even compared to a Modi at the time.

 

[mandrake50]

I meant the early production HE 560 not the limited number of preproduction units that were produced. SMC connector and back plates. In the fancy wooden box.
The more recent pair I just got a few months ago when the price got to around $425 (IIRC). For the set I got and my ears, a significantly different sound. I have left then stock other than fitting Focus A pads and have been enjoying them that way.
I had another set around for a while, but they never came out of the box before they were sold.

 

[peepr]

First, if you are talking about a fixed source, you are pretty correct. Amplifiers, OTH are not that. In any case lets assume that your claim is accurate for his amp. Specs from Hifiman say the 560 is 47 ohms. A rough estimate is that it would produce more than 200 mW into that. Se my previous post. At steady state that would still kill your ears quickly.
Point is, this idea that you "NEED" multiple watts to drive most any headphones is just completely false. Find an amp that sounds good... and within reason don't focus on the power output.
For the vast majority of cases if it sounds good, be happy. I guess he will figure out is it sounds good... but the max output (again within reason) should not make him decide whether to try it.
0.2 watts will make them plenty loud. Whether he likes the sound, well that is a different subject. Quite simply, the max output numbers will not be the factor to determine this.

I just can't agree with this based on my experience. Going from a Magni to the A-100 or my vintage receiver was a massive jump, particularly in bass slam and texture of instruments. Magni felt like it was "straining". I experienced the same thing with Mad Dogs. Now my Denon D2000 did not benefit from the A-100 or vintage receiver, and in fact were worse due to hiss/background noise.

 

[Motocrossman24]

I just can't agree with this based on my experience. Going from a Magni to the A-100 or my vintage receiver was a massive jump, particularly in bass slam and texture of instruments. Magni felt like it was "straining". I experienced the same thing with Mad Dogs. Now my Denon D2000 did not benefit from the A-100 or vintage receiver, and in fact were worse due to hiss/background noise.

I fully agree with you, you can run these off just about anything, but they massively miss low end punch and feel completely lathargic unless you feed them some power.

 

[DavidA]

I just can't agree with this based on my experience. Going from a Magni to the A-100 or my vintage receiver was a massive jump, particularly in bass slam and texture of instruments. Magni felt like it was "straining". I experienced the same thing with Mad Dogs. Now my Denon D2000 did not benefit from the A-100 or vintage receiver, and in fact were worse due to hiss/background noise.

The original Magni was poor match for the HE560 when I had one, made the HE560 sound thin and harsh. Using the speaker taps of the A-100 is a whole different scenario and can't really be compared to a headphone amp since you are dealing with major changes to the interaction between the amp (speaker taps) and headphone due to the big difference in output impedance.
As for vintage gear, the headphone output varies so much on a case by case basis. I know my old Sony AVR headphone jack does a great job of driving my HD650 and HD700 but is not so good with lower impedance headphones like Grados and most planar.

 

[Motocrossman24]

The original Magni was poor match for the HE560 when I had one, made the HE560 sound thin and harsh. Using the speaker taps of the A-100 is a whole different scenario and can't really be compared to a headphone amp since you are dealing with major changes to the interaction between the amp (speaker taps) and headphone due to the big difference in output impedance.
As for vintage gear, the headphone output varies so much on a case by case basis. I know my old Sony AVR headphone jack does a great job of driving my HD650 and HD700 but is not so good with lower impedance headphones like Grados and most planar.

Changes in output impedance of an amp do absolutely nothing to effect a planar headphone. They have a completely flat impedance across the entire frequency spectrum. So they are not colored like a dynamic driver is...this has been measured.

 

[phthora]

Changes in output impedance of an amp do absolutely nothing to effect a planar headphone. They have a completely flat impedance across the entire frequency spectrum. So they are not colored like a dynamic driver is...this has been measured.

Yeah, but you know what else has no effect? Having several watts more power on tap than the headphone could ever possibly handle.

 

[Motocrossman24]

Yeah, but you know what else has no effect? Having several watts more power on tap than the headphone could ever possibly handle.

I can max the volume on high gain on my lyr3 and it’s not even close to unbearably loud...thats over 4 Watts rms