[money4me247]

So, listened to the CEntrance M8 LX, been having some technical difficulties with it, a funny clicking that sounds like dust on a vinyl record is the closest I can come to describing it, usually hear it most on hi Rez files. Reinstalled Windows drivers, better but not completely resolved. Good enough to say the combo is a fine sounding portable combo, didn't hear the high end nasties I sometimes hear with lesser sources, wide stage (somewhat forward in presentation, from my short listen). I'd recommend it if I could get it working properly...

 
 

Spoiler: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

[size=1.1em]192kHz considered harmful

192kHz digital music files offer no benefits. They're not quite neutral either; practical fidelity is slightly worse. The ultrasonics are a liability during playback.
Neither audio transducers nor power amplifiers are free of distortion, and distortion tends to increase rapidly at the lowest and highest frequencies. If the same transducer reproduces ultrasonics along with audible content, any nonlinearity will shift some of the ultrasonic content down into the audible range as an uncontrolled spray of intermodulation distortion products covering the entire audible spectrum. Nonlinearity in a power amplifier will produce the same effect. The effect is very slight, but listening tests have confirmed that both effects can be audible.

Above: Illustration of distortion products resulting from intermodulation of a 30kHz and a 33kHz tone in a theoretical amplifier with a nonvarying total harmonic distortion (THD) of about .09%. Distortion products appear throughout the spectrum, including at frequencies lower than either tone.​

Inaudible ultrasonics contribute to intermodulation distortion in the audible range (light blue area). Systems not designed to reproduce ultrasonics typically have much higher levels of distortion above 20kHz, further contributing to intermodulation. Widening a design's frequency range to account for ultrasonics requires compromises that decrease noise and distortion performance within the audible spectrum. Either way, unneccessary reproduction of ultrasonic content diminishes performance.​

There are a few ways to avoid the extra distortion:

• A dedicated ultrasonic-only speaker, amplifier, and crossover stage to separate and independently reproduce the ultrasonics you can't hear, just so they don't mess up the sounds you can.
• Amplifiers and transducers designed for wider frequency reproduction, so ultrasonics don't cause audible intermodulation. Given equal expense and complexity, this additional frequency range must come at the cost of some performance reduction in the audible portion of the spectrum.
• Speakers and amplifiers carefully designed not to reproduce ultrasonics anyway.
• Not encoding such a wide frequency range to begin with. You can't and won't have ultrasonic intermodulation distortion in the audible band if there's no ultrasonic content.

They all amount to the same thing, but only 4) makes any sense.
If you're curious about the performance of your own system, the following samples contain a 30kHz and a 33kHz tone in a 24/96 WAV file, a longer version in a FLAC, some tri-tone warbles, and a normal song clip shifted up by 24kHz so that it's entirely in the ultrasonic range from 24kHz to 46kHz:

1. Intermod Tests:
   1. 30kHz tone + 33kHz tone (24 bit / 96kHz) [5 second WAV] [30 second FLAC]
   2. 26kHz - 48kHz warbling tones (24 bit / 96kHz) [10 second WAV]
   3. 26kHz - 96kHz warbling tones (24 bit / 192kHz) [10 second WAV]
   4. Song clip shifted up by 24kHz (24 bit / 96kHz WAV) [10 second WAV] 
          (original version of above clip) (16 bit / 44.1kHz WAV)

Assuming your system is actually capable of full 96kHz playback [6], the above files should be completely silent with no audible noises, tones, whistles, clicks, or other sounds. If you hear anything, your system has a nonlinearity causing audible intermodulation of the ultrasonics. Be careful when increasing volume; running into digital or analog clipping, even soft clipping, will suddenly cause loud intermodulation tones.
In summary, it's not certain that intermodulation from ultrasonics will be audible on a given system. The added distortion could be insignificant or it could be noticable. Either way, ultrasonic content is never a benefit, and on plenty of systems it will audibly hurt fidelity. On the systems it doesn't hurt, the cost and complexity of handling ultrasonics could have been saved, or spent on improved audible range performance instead.
 
[/size]
 

 

[doctorjazz]

So, listened to the CEntrance M8 LX, been having some technical difficulties with it, a funny clicking that sounds like dust on a vinyl record is the closest I can come to describing it, usually hear it most on hi Rez files. Reinstalled Windows drivers, better but not completely resolved. Good enough to say the combo is a fine sounding portable combo, didn't hear the high end nasties I sometimes hear with lesser sources, wide stage (somewhat forward in presentation, from my short listen). I'd recommend it if I could get it working properly...

Spoiler: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

[size=1.1em]192kHz considered harmful

192kHz digital music files offer no benefits. They're not quite neutral either; practical fidelity is slightly worse. The ultrasonics are a liability during playback.


Neither audio transducers nor power amplifiers are free of distortion, and distortion tends to increase rapidly at the lowest and highest frequencies. If the same transducer reproduces ultrasonics along with audible content, any nonlinearity will shift some of the ultrasonic content down into the audible range as an uncontrolled spray of intermodulation distortion products covering the entire audible spectrum. Nonlinearity in a power amplifier will produce the same effect. The effect is very slight, but listening tests have confirmed that both effects can be audible.

Above: Illustration of distortion products resulting from intermodulation of a 30kHz and a 33kHz tone in a theoretical amplifier with a nonvarying total harmonic distortion (THD) of about .09%. Distortion products appear throughout the spectrum, including at frequencies lower than either tone.​

Inaudible ultrasonics contribute to intermodulation distortion in the audible range (light blue area). Systems not designed to reproduce ultrasonics typically have much higher levels of distortion above 20kHz, further contributing to intermodulation. Widening a design's frequency range to account for ultrasonics requires compromises that decrease noise and distortion performance within the audible spectrum. Either way, unneccessary reproduction of ultrasonic content diminishes performance.​

There are a few ways to avoid the extra distortion:

1. 
   A dedicated ultrasonic-only speaker, amplifier, and crossover stage to separate and independently reproduce the ultrasonics you can't hear, just so they don't mess up the sounds you can.
   
   
   
   
2. 
   Amplifiers and transducers designed for wider frequency reproduction, so ultrasonics don't cause audible intermodulation. Given equal expense and complexity, this additional frequency range must come at the cost of some performance reduction in the audible portion of the spectrum.
   
   
   
   
3. 
   Speakers and amplifiers carefully designed not to reproduce ultrasonics anyway.
   
   
   
   
4. 
   Not encoding such a wide frequency range to begin with. You can't and won't have ultrasonic intermodulation distortion in the audible band if there's no ultrasonic content.
   
   
   
   

They all amount to the same thing, but only 4) makes any sense.


If you're curious about the performance of your own system, the following samples contain a 30kHz and a 33kHz tone in a 24/96 WAV file, a longer version in a FLAC, some tri-tone warbles, and a normal song clip shifted up by 24kHz so that it's entirely in the ultrasonic range from 24kHz to 46kHz:

• 
  Intermod Tests:
  
  
  • 30kHz tone + 33kHz tone (24 bit / 96kHz) [COLOR=3366CC][5 second WAV]

• •  [COLOR=3366CC][30 second FLAC][/COLOR]
    
  • 26kHz - 48kHz warbling tones (24 bit / 96kHz) [COLOR=3366CC][10 second WAV][/COLOR]
    
  • 26kHz - 96kHz warbling tones (24 bit / 192kHz) [COLOR=3366CC][10 second WAV][/COLOR]
    
  • Song clip shifted up by 24kHz (24 bit / 96kHz WAV) [COLOR=3366CC][10 second WAV][/COLOR] 
    
       [COLOR=3366CC] (original version of above clip)[/COLOR] (16 bit / 44.1kHz WAV)
    
  
  

Assuming your system is actually capable of full 96kHz playback [[COLOR=3366CC]6[/COLOR]], the above files should be completely silent with no audible noises, tones, whistles, clicks, or other sounds. If you hear anything, your system has a nonlinearity causing audible intermodulation of the ultrasonics. Be careful when increasing volume; running into digital or analog clipping, even soft clipping, will suddenly cause loud intermodulation tones.


In summary, it's not certain that intermodulation from ultrasonics will be audible on a given system. The added distortion could be insignificant or it could be noticable. Either way, ultrasonic content is never a benefit, and on plenty of systems it will audibly hurt fidelity. On the systems it doesn't hurt, the cost and complexity of handling ultrasonics could have been saved, or spent on improved audible range performance instead.


 

[/color][/size]


 

Not going to get into the whole "hi rez is malarky"thing. It certainly is scientific sounding, I have no way to refute (or confirm) any of these statements. I know that there are others who can refute them, but a few, non scientific thoughts from my end.
1)I have listened to hi rez files on my Pono (and through my Geek Out Special Edition from my Windows PC), no noise, and they sound great! There are sites that allow you to download the same track in various bit rates/depths and compare, I hear and like the difference (no, I don't download my music in all formats, gets too costly).
2)the same "dusty LP" sound happens though the CEntrance M8 LX with CD quality tracks, though it seems to do it less than the hi rez files on the M8. Does that mean 16/44 is too high resolution to use as well?
No, seems to me something is wrong with the CEntrance (it didn't do this earlier, at least not that I noticed). Not happy that I haven't heard back from the CEntrance people (PM'd through Head Fi) yet, it's been a few days, but I'll wait a bit more.
My $0.02...everyone seems to believe what they believe on this, it's a bit like arguing religion or politics (supposed to be a bad idea...)

 

[money4me247]

2)the same "dusty LP" sound happens though the CEntrance M8 LX with CD quality tracks, though it seems to do it less than the hi rez files on the M8. Does that mean 16/44 is too high resolution to use as well?

if that, then yes. probably something wrong with your M8.

 

[DreamKing]

You guys think the HE-560's price will drop soon or only once the HE-1000? Or is it gonna be unrelated to it. 

 

[Sonic Defender]

  You guys think the HE-560's price will drop soon or only once the HE-1000? Or is it gonna be unrelated to it. 

Unrelated to it. From a performance perspective given current competing products, the 560 is well priced. Used sets will pop up from time-to-time so grab those when you can!

 

[YtseJamer]

 

[Kyno]

 
Unrelated to it. From a performance perspective given current competing products, the 560 is well priced. Used sets will pop up from time-to-time so grab those when you can!

 
Agreed. The HE-500 had a reason to drop when the HE-560 got out, but if the HE-1000 is released at $2,999, I don't see the HE-560 moving an inch. 

 

[Kalavere]

You're looking at a £2350 price difference, the HE-1000 won't affect the price of the 560's at all.

 

[money4me247]

i think the he560 price will drop slowly over time. u can get en for $600-$800 if u kno where to look nowadays alrdy.

 

[conquerator2]

The X12 really is impressive and an easy recommend for anyone who wants to have a smooth Sabre, squarely between the uber musical and analytic. Very smooth and natural sound. Nothing jumps at me. The mild accentuation at 4KHz is there with the HE-560, but not to a bothersome level, like with the NFB-7 [why I sold it]. Squarely between the Gungnir and NFB-7. Needless to say, for the asking price, I am very impressed. Glad I pulled the trigger on it. 

 

 

[money4me247]

  The X12 really is impressive and an easy recommend for anyone who wants to have a smooth Sabre, squarely between the uber musical and analytic. Very smooth and natural sound. Nothing jumps at me. The mild accentuation at 4KHz is there with the HE-560, but not to a bothersome level, like with the NFB-7 [why I sold it]. Squarely between the Gungnir and NFB-7. Needless to say, for the asking price, I am very impressed. Glad I pulled the trigger on it. 

 

pixs & asking price? [that you managed to snipe it for]

 

[DreamKing]

 
Unrelated to it. From a performance perspective given current competing products, the 560 is well priced. Used sets will pop up from time-to-time so grab those when you can!

Quote:

   
Agreed. The HE-500 had a reason to drop when the HE-560 got out, but if the HE-1000 is released at $2,999, I don't see the HE-560 moving an inch. 

 
Darn it, alright. That's just me grasping at straws lol 

 

i think the he560 price will drop slowly over time. u can get en for $600-$800 if u kno where to look nowadays alrdy.

 
Yeah, I saw that. Just hopelessly thought the price as new might drop directly from Hifiman. 

 

[money4me247]

 
Yeah, I saw that. Just hopelessly thought the price as new might drop directly from Hifiman. 

just been released less than a year ago. usually for high-end stuff, it takes two-three years earliest before you see any official price changes. usually high-end stuff hold their official MSRP a lot longer unlike mid-fi that can price drop after a few months or a year. hifiman products get black friday deals though, so if looking to save money on a pair of hifimans, just wait for black friday or other dealer discounts.
 
don't think you will really be able to find the he-560 lower than $600 anyway. the old HE-6's lowest price I've ever seen used was $600 for a demo unit.

 

[Sonic Defender]

And for this quality $600 is a very good price indeed so if you see them that low, best grab a set. Now in 2 years that will be common to slightly high, but this is now.

 

[DreamKing]

Okay then, I'm gonna aim for $600. Thanks a ton guys