[Sonic Defender]

My other question would be are all 118decible outputs equal? Is it as simple as saying that amplifier a can drive headphone x to this decibel level? I would think that you can have a headphone driven to say 118 decibels and perhaps have more congestion and other sound signature issues where perhaps another amplifier at that same output will sound different and for some better. I think that is why many around here push back against number driven decision making. I firmly believe numbers are important, but more as an initial investigation tool, but in the end, the brain is the real measuring device I care about. 

 

[ieee754]

  My other question would be are all 118decible outputs equal? Is it as simple as saying that amplifier a can drive headphone x to this decibel level? I would think that you can have a headphone driven to say 118 decibels and perhaps have more congestion and other sound signature issues where perhaps another amplifier at that same output will sound different and for some better. I think that is why many around here push back against number driven decision making. I firmly believe numbers are important, but more as an initial investigation tool, but in the end, the brain is the real measuring device I care about. 

I believe that O2 designer has measured its performance at full load, so even at 118dB it should retain its all sound quality properties like flat FR, low distortion, fast slew rate, etc. I think what you said (like congestion) would show up on graphs. I don't really believe that "brain measure" has any big value, our minds are too prone to autosuggestion effect.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  I believe that O2 designer has measured its performance at full load, so even at 118dB it should retain its all sound quality properties like flat FR, low distortion, fast slew rate, etc. I think what you said (like congestion) would show up on graphs. I don't really believe that "brain measure" has any big value, our minds are too prone to autosuggestion effect.

But you hear with your brain, how can that fact not be important? Plus there is individual difference, not everybody is equally likely to fool themselves, how else can you explain the many people around here who prefer less expensive gear when they can afford more expensive kit? I think you might be oversimplifying and generalizing a little broadly here.

 

[ieee754]

But you hear with your brain, how can that fact not be important? Plus there is individual difference, not everybody is equally likely to fool themselves, how else can you explain the many people around here who prefer less expensive gear when they can afford more expensive kit? I think you might be oversimplifying and generalizing a little broadly here.

I'm not saying that there are no better amps out there, or that people will always rate more expensive gear as better. But I think that the improvement is mostly from placebo and really small part of it is from objective difference so it's not really worth it to spend thousands on an amp.

 

[hifimanrookie]

But you hear with your brain, how can that fact not be important? Plus there is individual difference, not everybody is equally likely to fool themselves, how else can you explain the many people around here who prefer less expensive gear when they can afford more expensive kit? I think you might be oversimplifying and generalizing a little broadly here.

Most of them do that because they prefer to spend their hard earned money on other things..i know a person who doesnt go on holidays has a car who is so old and cheap i wouldnt even been found dead in it and lives in a house with a rent of just 700usd (550euro).. And earns medium sallary...But he does have a rig that people have to work many months for..others (Some of my friends and my boss) dont even have an dedicated rig..they have a HUGE tv and some kind of sleek bose 5.1 one speaker? surround set thingie (because it looks so classy..lolz) and some earn 6digits a year..but they do have a house u can get lost in or have cars i would give my kidney for to own one...and more..wish i was rich..lolz

..its all about priorities..u cant say that people buying affordable stuff (while they can buy more expensive) is because they think more expensive stuff is rubbish to spend ur money on..maybe on this thread some do..could be..OR..they prefer to have several headphones and amps..like some of us have..(again..not me)

check a speaker thread..any thread of premium brands..and its the complete opposite..some are even proud they bought a certain speaker cable for an amount u wouldnt believe..and no one..yep..no one even tries to contradict that dude... Or say he is out of his wits that he bought that cable thats so heavy his light preamp needs to be supported or else the cable pulls the preamp of the audio rack because of the weight..even i have my doubts about people on those threads....lolz

Sooo.my point..yes ofcourse u have people (also on this thread!) who has easily enough budget to buy even the sr009 with the blue hawai amp.. (NOT me!) but decide to buy more budget friendly stuff because they think more money on it is silly....but many do it also out of priorities reasons because they want to spend it to other stuff or their wifes/girlfriend (can be ur most expensive hobby if ur not careful..lolz)

Its not a hard fact that buying affordable mid tier stuff automatically means they believe above that its not worth it... And if u tried it urself u know its not...anyone who contradicts that is or hiding behind numbers or just didnt found the right amp yet..no matter the price. Imho

 

[Sonic Defender]

  I'm not saying that there are no better amps out there, or that people will always rate more expensive gear as better. But I think that the improvement is mostly from placebo and really small part of it is from objective difference so it's not really worth it to spend thousands on an amp.

And again, I am sorry to say, but that is an extremely generalized statement. How are you party to research that has been able to prove it is all placebo effect?

 

[Sonic Defender]

@hifimanrookie, that is my point, I was using that as one example, we have such a wide variety of individual difference that when the OP suggested that people are all "fooling themselves" into believing some gear is better than others based on price that poster was assuming everybody is the same; which of course is simply untrue.

 

[ieee754]

 
And again, I am sorry to say, but that is an extremely generalized statement. How are you party to research that has been able to prove it is all placebo effect?

I'm not saying that it is all placebo, but that people exaggerate the difference much more than there really is. Seeing people believing in USB or Ethernet cables making great difference in soundstage or performing other magic, I'm confident that placebo takes huge role in audio equipment evaluation.

 

[hifimanrookie]

I'm not saying that there are no better amps out there, or that people will always rate more expensive gear as better. But I think that the improvement is mostly from placebo and really small part of it is from objective difference so it's not really worth it to spend thousands on an amp.

May i ask what amps u owned for a long time except for ur o2 amp and odac? Dont get me wrong..i read they re good for their price..i am just curious what ur references are to believe the O2 is all u need for an rather EXPENSIVE he (560/500) phone..and that expensive amps/dacs are not worth it to spend on... Am just curious.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  I'm not saying that it is all placebo, but that people exaggerate the difference much more than there really is. Seeing people believing in USB or Ethernet cables making great difference in soundstage or performing other magic, I'm confident that placebo takes huge role in audio equipment evaluation.

Even so, your confidence is simply an opinion (which you are of course entitled to, and welcome to express) my point is that with such a complex subject matter one should not deal in absolutes. I tend toward your viewpoint on cables, but I stop short of that stance as there are many, many experienced users who feel otherwise. Can placebo/expectation bias explain that? Sure, but that in itself doesn't mean that is the correct explanation. This is really a sound science debate starting up so I will stop it here, but I respect your opinions, I just think you need to always remember you could be wrong about this.

 

[ieee754]

May i ask what amps u owned for a long time except for ur o2 amp and odac? Dont get me wrong..i read they re good for their price..i am just curious what ur references are to believe the O2 is all u need for an rather EXPENSIVE he (560/500) phone..and that expensive amps/dacs are not worth it to spend on... Am just curious.

Where did I say that O2 is the ultimate amp for 560? I actually admitted that is not really that good with all applications. I am just arguing that objective measurements are far more important than subjective evaluation.
 

  Even so, your confidence is simply an opinion (which you are of course entitled to, and welcome to express) my point is that with such a complex subject matter one should not deal in absolutes. I tend toward your viewpoint on cables, but I stop short of that stance as there are many, many experienced users who feel otherwise. Can placebo/expectation bias explain that? Sure, but that in itself doesn't mean that is the correct explanation. This is really a sound science debate starting up so I will stop it here, but I respect your opinions, I just think you need to always remember you could be wrong about this.

Yes, it's just my belief based on observation. I can't back it up with any research, and actually I also believe that it cannot be proven that there is no difference. Nobody should take what I say as an absolute truth. You are right, this is getting too OT now, so maybe we should go back to original topic 

.

 

[Sonic Defender]

  Where did I say that O2 is the ultimate amp for 560? I actually admitted that is not really that good with all applications. I am just arguing that objective measurements are far more important than subjective evaluation.

Look, I have been involved in psychological research and I am all about the value of evidenced based science, but you are oversimplifying here as I have said. If you think for a moment that simple measuring devices and basic graphical output can even hope to equate to the complex processing involved in how our brain hears, then I do not know what to say. Measurements are just one device, and compared to the subjective brain you don't seem to value, they are extremely crude and un-nuanced tools at that.

 

[hifimanrookie]

I'm not saying that it is all placebo, but that people exaggerate the difference much more than there really is. Seeing people believing in USB or Ethernet cables making great difference in soundstage or performing other magic, I'm confident that placebo takes huge role in audio equipment evaluation.

I myself dont believe in usb or any digital cable (am a computer builder myself who builts watercooled gaming pc's as a hobby) improving the sound in any way..but the built quality could be different and so the longetivity...analog cabling is a whole different ballgame for me though

but thats a whole different matter then amps and dacs. And why is it accepted that a phone can be better then others? Why is that easily accepted here? Wouldn't that be placebo also? i can tell ya one thing..listening to music gets easily influenced by how u feel or ur physical status...i found out that when i am angry or very tired or sleepy, i then experience the music differently, sometimes thats so weird! sometimes i can listen to music louder then on other occasions to the same track, isnt that placebo extreme? My mind blocks music ..the perfect filter..lolz

And funny is that no one talks about that..they say: that headphone sounds much better then the other..etc...and everyone accepts that..but if u start talking about an even so important component in ur rig (no matter how small or big the influence) people here tend to put the placebo label on it if u say u spend a certain amount on it...some are even afraid to talk about their just bought 1000usd plus amp here..as ofcourse thats considered not done...on other threads (like stax or he6 or certain amp and dac threads) they are not like that..and its not because they have more money ..as i know for a fact some of u can buy whatever they want..its just a different way of thinking...

BUT GUYS..THIS DEBATE IS STARTING TO LOOK THE SAME AS ONCE WERE ON A CERTAIN THREAD..and it almost got locked...i think u always will have 2 extreme groups, the number guys (like the o2 owners and the techies among us ) and the other extreme dudes like me (who actually spends a eeny weeny more then 400usd on his amp/dac)..and a lot of peeps in between..lolz

So guys..before this overcooks...we were here advicing a fellow friend with his choice for a new amp until 1000usd...maybe for the sake of peace someone could just make a google list so anyone can put her adviced amp on it..so he has a list from which he can start from...what ya think? I think many more newbies would be interested in such a list....i was helped by such a list also in the past..

Peace to ya all!!

 

[Sonic Defender]

 
Look, I have been involved in psychological research and I am all about the value of evidenced based science, but you are oversimplifying here as I have said. If you think for a moment that simple measuring devices and basic graphical output can even hope to equate to the complex processing involved in how our brain hears, then I do not know what to say. Measurements are just one device, and compared to the subjective brain you don't seem to value, they are extremely crude and un-nuanced tools at that.

Mental note, don't get sucked into these debates and derail threads. I will have to write that on a chalk board 100 times now ....

 

[Sonic Defender]

  Where did I say that O2 is the ultimate amp for 560? I actually admitted that is not really that good with all applications. I am just arguing that objective measurements are far more important than subjective evaluation.

Not getting into the debate itself, but I feel bad for you that you are going to be a bit of a target, and perhaps you are comfortable with that. But consider carefully what you are saying, in essence you are implying that a great many people here are simply fooled by basic parlour tricks and can be duped rather easily. Perhaps you are correct, I can't prove otherwise; but unless you have very concrete and solid evidence to back up such a position, don't be surprised that people will respond. This is a nice community for certain, and you need to know you can voice dissenting opinion, just be measured in what you can support. Some claims are just too contentious. I for one am an atheists, but I would never suggest that religious people are foolish and wrong. How do I know if there is or isn't a god?