[mandrake50]

   
It's VERY track specific.  95% of the tracks I listen to - no problem at all with the vocals.  They sound "right".
 
Certain recordings, though...old Billie Holiday stuff, for example, can hit me as a little harsh at times.  

How much of that do you think might have to do with the recording... mixing ... etc.?

 

[money4me247]

  How much of that do you think might have to do with the recording... mixing ... etc.?

Honestly, I think that most "problems" that people have with their headphones are actually more due to the recording.
 
I've gotten into the habit of whenever I hear something that I personally think illustrates a problem with a headphone's sound quality to switch headphones and relisten. I have found that most of the time, the specific distortion or problem is present regardless of which pair of headphones you are using. "Hardness" that you hear with the HE-560 is also there when I use the HE-400 or AKG Q701 or ATH-M50x. Sibilance or shouty voices that I hear on the HE-400 are there when you use any other pair of headphones as well.
 
However, it is true that you notice certain flaws more depending on which headphones you are using. The sound signatures and frequency responses of different headphones emphasize different flaws of the song, so that is why you get the impression that there is an issue with you headphones. But the true problem usually lies more with the source than the headphones (imo).
 
Remember that the source has the biggest impact on sound quality, so this makes sense.

 

[HeretixAevum]

^ I very much believe that exact sentiment with my DT880s. Some people describe them as cold sounding, but I think they're just analytical (which to me is very neutral tonally). Warm, lush music sounds that way and cold, metallic music sounds that way. Some also describe them as bright, and I'd say they were a little bit on the bright side, they're not going to make any recording that wasn't already harsh sound harsh, or sibilant or piercing in my honest opinion.

 

[Dodgercat]

I think it's important, that those that know, advise those that don't, what they mean by " can be " and " as long as "....My point is this, when I think of wether an amp is adequate, I'm not thinking of wether it is adequate for 95% of daily circumstances. I'm thinking of the 5% of....I wouldn't say extreeme, but out of ordinary...maybe. If I'm buying all this high end equipment, it BETTER be able to handle anything I come accross musically, without "failing" under non abusive situations....If on the odd occasion, I listen to some clasical Bach Organ Concert, and the organist hits that deep low end pipe, and I have the volume at medium high enjoyable level, and the headpone gives me back distortion, because it has run out of the power, that should have been adequately supplied to the amp, if the proper amp was selected...If this happens, to me - this amp just failed, and in my book, is not "good enough", when my investment in audio gear seems to grow higher and wider in scope and money...I EXPECT my system to be able to meet anything WITHIN reason I throw at it....If I didn't have this expectation, I wouldn't be spending this money, and I'd be one of those average Joes, with a $ 15 pair of earbuds hooked to my phone, smiling away...but that's not me....I spend more, I expect more...."Experts" giving advice to some newbee that...sure -your planar magnetic headphones don't REALLY need an amp, and sure that toy with the name FIIO on it, can power these headphones, are maybe not misleading these newbees, but you should let these folks know, that they should first hear their headphones, with a sampling of their most "Demanding" music they listen to, and listen to it at the upper ends of the volume level they might listen to it, it the noisiest environment they might expect to experience listening....let them hear it through one of the upper end amps, like a lyr, then, let them hear it through one of these toy amps,,,,and they will most probbly say, wow, I didn't realize just how much better my expencive headphones could sound....They don't know yet, because all they have experioenced is a mediorcre experience, and they simply dont know better...Folks, you arent investing this kind of money, to listen to headphones, that only sound " OK " unamped...Experts, you should advise these complacent ignorant ( Not an insult)...OK - If you like them unamped or with cheapo FIIO's, before you term yourself satisfied...Go see what they are really capable, under the most demanding situations....Me, I prefer " More than I need " in 95% of circumstances, so when that 5% comes along, I cruze through it, cause I'm prepared, and I don't even know, I just utilized that upper end of my systems capabilites, Because this is why I spend the money...So I don't get pissed off by shortcommings in any situation....If you can live with shortcommings, fine - not me. BTW, I'm no " Audiophile " expert...just an "educated enthusiast" maybe....Educate yourself.

 

[Dodgercat]

If your happy listening to this, un-amped, loud....then God Bless you....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R630OZU2Rf8 Dave Nadz & LeBlanc - Haamiah (Liquid Vision presents LIKWID remix) This is my yardstick, doesn't really matter if it's your kind of music or not, ignore that, think of it as a tool for exposing the weekness or streangths or bredth of your systems set up. Listen to the whole thing, it's 7.02 mins, if your impatient, skip to 3:15, or 6:15...It consists of very clear high pitched female vocals, and sharp hard driving fast deep base samples. Maybe you are happy with the way it sounds on your headset, amped or unamped, but also, maybe if you tried a couple of different headphones to do a true comparison, this above piece will bring out the variations in the capabilites of different combinations of equipment.
 
Enjoy, save the link for future use as a testing tool.

 

[shiorisekine]

If your happy listening to this, un-amped, loud....then God Bless you....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R630OZU2Rf8 Dave Nadz & LeBlanc - Haamiah (Liquid Vision presents LIKWID remix) This is my yardstick, doesn't really matter if it's your kind of music or not, ignore that, think of it as a tool for exposing the weekness or streangths or bredth of your systems set up. Listen to the whole thing, it's 7.02 mins, if your impatient, skip to 3:15, or 6:15...It consists of very clear high pitched female vocals, and sharp hard driving fast deep base samples. Maybe you are happy with the way it sounds on your headset, amped or unamped, but also, maybe if you tried a couple of different headphones to do a true comparison, this above piece will bring out the variations in the capabilites of different combinations of equipment.

Enjoy, save the link for future use as a testing tool.

This is a pretty good track, I can dig this, one as a good reference track to see how the headphone performs in different areas, and two as a good song to just listen too.

 

[money4me247]

  I think it's important, that those that know, advise those that don't, what they mean by " can be " and " as long as "....My point is this, when I think of wether an amp is adequate, I'm not thinking of wether it is adequate for 95% of daily circumstances. I'm thinking of the 5% of....I wouldn't say extreeme, but out of ordinary...maybe. If I'm buying all this high end equipment, it BETTER be able to handle anything I come accross musically, without "failing" under non abusive situations....If on the odd occasion, I listen to some clasical Bach Organ Concert, and the organist hits that deep low end pipe, and I have the volume at medium high enjoyable level, and the headpone gives me back distortion, because it has run out of the power, that should have been adequately supplied to the amp, if the proper amp was selected...If this happens, to me - this amp just failed, and in my book, is not "good enough", when my investment in audio gear seems to grow higher and wider in scope and money...I EXPECT my system to be able to meet anything WITHIN reason I throw at it....If I didn't have this expectation, I wouldn't be spending this money, and I'd be one of those average Joes, with a $ 15 pair of earbuds hooked to my phone, smiling away...but that's not me....I spend more, I expect more...."Experts" giving advice to some newbee that...sure -your planar magnetic headphones don't REALLY need an amp, and sure that toy with the name FIIO on it, can power these headphones, are maybe not misleading these newbees, but you should let these folks know, that they should first hear their headphones, with a sampling of their most "Demanding" music they listen to, and listen to it at the upper ends of the volume level they might listen to it, it the noisiest environment they might expect to experience listening....let them hear it through one of the upper end amps, like a lyr, then, let them hear it through one of these toy amps,,,,and they will most probbly say, wow, I didn't realize just how much better my expencive headphones could sound....They don't know yet, because all they have experioenced is a mediorcre experience, and they simply dont know better...Folks, you arent investing this kind of money, to listen to headphones, that only sound " OK " unamped...Experts, you should advise these complacent ignorant ( Not an insult)...OK - If you like them unamped or with cheapo FIIO's, before you term yourself satisfied...Go see what they are really capable, under the most demanding situations....Me, I prefer " More than I need " in 95% of circumstances, so when that 5% comes along, I cruze through it, cause I'm prepared, and I don't even know, I just utilized that upper end of my systems capabilites, Because this is why I spend the money...So I don't get pissed off by shortcommings in any situation....If you can live with shortcommings, fine - not me. BTW, I'm no " Audiophile " expert...just an "educated enthusiast" maybe....Educate yourself.

I think the problem with this line of thinking is that with this hobby you can always change/improve your sound quality a little bit more. Hence, $5,000 Abyss headphones or $500 cables. There is always a higher performance ceiling and you can find a flaw with every pair of headphones (including flagships such as the $1,200 HD800 or even going up to the $2,000 LCD-3s). No matter how much money you invest into your system, I am positive that you can always find a demanding situation your set-up falls short. There is no such thing as a perfect audio set-up.
 
The more logical way to think about it is in terms of performance per dollar. You set your budget. Then you determine what is the best way to maximize your sonic performance in accordance to your preferences. You guys here already picked the $500 HE-400i. Some of you here can afford expensive amps/dacs to pair with it while others are sticking to more budget oriented equipment.
 
I think it is the completely wrong mentality to think that you NEED expensive gear to make your headphones shine. You can achieve great sound with regardless of your budget. There is always slightly more performance you can eek out, but at a certain point, you realize it's not worth the extra money. I have compared a lot of headphones amped vs unamped. Really doesn't make much of a difference in terms of sound quality unless your headphones are designed to be only used with an amp (extremely high impedance for example).
 
The HE-400i are low impedance at 35 ohms and highly efficient at 93dB/mW. Hifiman even stated that the HE-400i were designed to be able to be driven directly out of an iPod. For me, I have tested and direct A/Bed the old HE-400 unamped, and unamped they still sound better for me personally than any other pair of headphones in the $300 price bracket. If I couldn't afford an amp or didn't want to get an amp, what is the big deal? It is always smarter to invest more money into your headphones and worry about your amp later if you are playing in the sub-$1000 price bracket, because headphones always have the biggest impact on sound and the majority of headphones in this price range aren't very picky with amps despite what people say. If the amp is a good amp, it will not drastically change your sound signature anyways. The sonic differences between different amps are extremely subtle. The headphones you pick are basically going to sound how they sound. No amount of amping/dacing/modding will change its fundamental sound characteristics. You can tweak out a few subtle changes, but it really is maybe like 15% difference. Not that big a deal and perhaps not even worth it if you are throwing down an additional $450 for a lyr 2 for that 15% upgrade.
 
Above that price range with luxury extremely resolving summit-fi gear, price is no longer a big concern and having your gear match is extremely important. You have to do your research and experiment with different set-ups. However, that is only because at the summit-fi price range you are really picky about your sound and spending tons of money to tune out that final 5%. 
 

  If your happy listening to this, un-amped, loud....then God Bless you....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R630OZU2Rf8 Dave Nadz & LeBlanc - Haamiah (Liquid Vision presents LIKWID remix) This is my yardstick, doesn't really matter if it's your kind of music or not, ignore that, think of it as a tool for exposing the weekness or streangths or bredth of your systems set up. Listen to the whole thing, it's 7.02 mins, if your impatient, skip to 3:15, or 6:15...It consists of very clear high pitched female vocals, and sharp hard driving fast deep base samples. Maybe you are happy with the way it sounds on your headset, amped or unamped, but also, maybe if you tried a couple of different headphones to do a true comparison, this above piece will bring out the variations in the capabilites of different combinations of equipment.
 
Enjoy, save the link for future use as a testing tool.

+9999!!!! Baller song!!! I love it!

 

[vertical]

Yeah, I think there's a lot to what you're saying money4me. The recording and the headphones/speakers impact SQ much more than the electronics & stuff in between.

 

[skyline315]

 
How much of that do you think might have to do with the recording... mixing ... etc.?

 
It's a combination of the recording and the headphones.  According to the FR graphs, these have a couple of peaks to them.  If a particular track happens to have a lot of sound focused around one of those peaks, then the recording simply serves to highlight that particular aspect of the headphones.
 
Just like if you happened to have a bass-heavy headphone and used them to listen to an extremely bass-heavy song...the result could be a bit...overwhelming.  
 
Thankfully, these occurrences with the 400i, in my experience, are the exception and not the norm.  The majority of my music feels fairly smooth, especially when compared to my DT880 which I'm very fond of.

 

[richard51]

  Honestly, I think that most "problems" that people have with their headphones are actually more due to the recording.
 
I've gotten into the habit of whenever I hear something that I personally think illustrates a problem with a headphone's sound quality to switch headphones and relisten. I have found that most of the time, the specific distortion or problem is present regardless of which pair of headphones you are using. "Hardness" that you hear with the HE-560 is also there when I use the HE-400 or AKG Q701 or ATH-M50x. Sibilance or shouty voices that I hear on the HE-400 are there when you use any other pair of headphones as well.
 
However, it is true that you notice certain flaws more depending on which headphones you are using. The sound signatures and frequency responses of different headphones emphasize different flaws of the song, so that is why you get the impression that there is an issue with you headphones. But the true problem usually lies more with the source than the headphones (imo).
 
Remember that the source has the biggest impact on sound quality, so this makes sense.

You are right to the point.... I will add that many problems are also connected with the pairing of the amp with the headphones....... Many amps are made with born in settings that adjust very well with one headphone not with the others...... Its not all amps that had the many flexible possibilities to adjust precisely the resistence and impedence output to each headphone......For exemple i try some amps with He 400... Each one fail except the Ember and it is because with the Ember i may use these settings to adjust to the difficult characteristics of the He 400 sound..... Best Regards

 

[mandrake50]

   
It's a combination of the recording and the headphones.  According to the FR graphs, these have a couple of peaks to them.  If a particular track happens to have a lot of sound focused around one of those peaks, then the recording simply serves to highlight that particular aspect of the headphones.
 
Just like if you happened to have a bass-heavy headphone and used them to listen to an extremely bass-heavy song...the result could be a bit...overwhelming.  
 
Thankfully, these occurrences with the 400i, in my experience, are the exception and not the norm.  The majority of my music feels fairly smooth, especially when compared to my DT880 which I'm very fond of.

I wondered because if I am using a headphone that is 95% very good, but shows defects in certain recordings, I have a bit of a hard time stating that it is the headphone's problem.
Certainly a less revealing headphone can mask the defect...

 

[skyline315]

 
I wondered because if I am using a headphone that is 95% very good, but shows defects in certain recordings, I have a bit of a hard time stating that it is the headphone's problem.
Certainly a less revealing headphone can mask the defect...

It all depends on how you define "defects in certain recordings".
 
The fact that a particular recording has a lot of sound in the 3-4k region doesn't necessarily make it "bad".  Perhaps the singer's vocal range just happens to reside in that region, or the band uses an instrument that hits that spot a lot.  But, if the frequency response of the headphone happens to be emphasized in the same region, then it has the effect of emphasizing that sound...perhaps too much.  
 
Another headphone may have a dip in the same frequency range which would de-emphasize that particular characteristic of the recording.
 
None of this really speaks to how "good" or "bad" the track or the headphone is.  It just means that some headphones will emphasize or de-emphasize certain characteristics of certain songs. 
 
All of this said...I have far less knowledge than many.  This is just how I've come to understand things.  Please feel free to tell me I've got all of this completely wrong.  I'll take no offense 

 

[swspiers]

If I were reading this thread as a person new to this hobby, unfamilira with planars, and prone to taking everything litererally, I would have the impression that the 400i's are light in bass, lacking air, and having a narrow soundstage or headstage. These qualities are relative, mostly to the tastes of the person and the other headphones one has been using.
 
So, for someone coming from the Alpha Dogs, HFM HE-5LE, and Grado SR-225i, as well as spending time with the HFM HE-560's and Grado GS-1000e, I think that both observations may be slightly exaggerated. Bass is every bit as deep, and even more impactful, than the Alpha Dogs, and the soundstage exceeds all of the aforementioned cans with the exception of the HE-560. Of course none of those cans are notable for their wide presentation, but watching episode 9 of season 4 of The Walking Dead, the ambient noise of crickets and wildlife extended way outside the perceived limits of the headphones, giving me an indication that if there is a wide soundstage in the recording, it's going to be in these cans.  They do not appear to create soundstage, which to me is a perceptual distortion.
 
The mids are slightly forward, but otherwise they present the best rendition of heavy guitar of any planar I have heard so far, and according to my notes that I took, far exceed even the HE-560's in delivering a Gibson SG through an over-driven tube guitar amp. Bass guitar is clear, articulate and distinct, and percussion has excellent snap and decay.  While I don't think that this is a neutral set of 'phones, so far they come across as very natural.
 
Anyway, I'm only two hours-in to ownership.  For the price and performance, these are fine headphones indeed.

 

[Mike In Bama]

So many well made points are in the last couple of pages that I won't even consider addressing them one by one.

I think that maybe the simplest statement that can be made may be this. At some point most of us had to be "taught" what to listen for. Most of my friends are blissfully happy if they can recognize the song at all. It doesn't matter if the sound is only AM radio sound!

Thankfully, my uncle introduced me to hi-fi and completely spoiled my ears. However, we are the minority, period. One look at my profile will show a lifetime of trying to achieve the best possible sound I could, within my budget. No one has a better home system, to my ears, than I do.

I'm trying to duplicate that sound with a headphone and amp due to current apartment accommodations. Listening to this passionate discussion among us 0.01%ers is so comfortable to me! It helps me to know I'm not so crazy after all.

 

[MattTCG]

So many well made points are in the last couple of pages that I won't even consider addressing them one by one.

I think that maybe the simplest statement that can be made may be this. At some point most of us had to be "taught" what to listen for. Most of my friends are blissfully happy if they can recognize the song at all. It doesn't matter if the sound is only AM radio sound!

Thankfully, my uncle introduced me to hi-fi and completely spoiled my ears. However, we are the minority, period. One look at my profile will show a lifetime of trying to achieve the best possible sound I could, within my budget. No one has a better home system, to my ears, than I do.

I'm trying to duplicate that sound with a headphone and amp due to current apartment accommodations. Listening to this passionate discussion among us 0.01%ers is so comfortable to me! It helps me to know I'm not so crazy after all.

 
Ahhhh ha...I see that you have some Aragon stuff and some Maggies. Quite nice indeed. I offer to come by on my next trip to Bama and give a listen to see just how good your home setup sounds.