[conquerator2]

^ mkay. I am the other way around actually. Dynamic cans always remind of that

 

[marshallmole]

^ mkay. I am the other way around actually. Dynamic cans always remind of that

Interesting... The reason for my preference is that I find dynamic cans seem to be better at positioning/layering instruments which is important for serious listening. With planars, instruments are either at the center or on an equidsitant circle around my head. Or maybe it's my wrong listening. Anyway, YMMV. One thing for sure is planars have that charasteristic 'impact' effect that is unmatched by dynamics. 

 

[conquerator2]

  Interesting... The reason for my preference is that I find dynamic cans seem to be better at positioning/layering instruments which is important for serious listening. With planars, instruments are either at the center or on an equidsitant circle around my head. Or maybe it's my wrong listening. Anyway, YMMV. One thing for sure is planars have that charasteristic 'impact' effect that is unmatched by dynamics. 

Yeah, good point. I'll make sure to compare my upcoming 560 to my current favorite reference-sounding K612 Pro.
The 560 should crush them in overall refinement obviously bur the K612 have brilliant imaging and a very holographic soundstage, plus they carry a well drawn balance between neutrality and musicality and they're magnificent with gaming too. Price non-withstanding, these are the points where I feel the HE-560 will have to prove its worth over K612s.

 

[Audioclyde]

Have I missed reports somewhere--I was hoping for a bit more opinions/thoughts from those that got to hear the 400i at the show in California, but I've only seen tidbits, mainly on the 560 thread.

Please point me to any info I may be missing, or if you heard the 400i, please share !

Thanks,

Randy

 

[Lohb]

Have I missed reports somewhere--I was hoping for a bit more opinions/thoughts from those that got to hear the 400i at the show in California, but I've only seen tidbits, mainly on the 560 thread.

Please point me to any info I may be missing, or if you heard the 400i, please share

!

Thanks,

Randy

400i = TOP SECRET + UNDER WRAPS
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/698974/hifiman-he-400i-impressions-and-discussion/255#post_10594018

 

[dpump]

So, HiFiMan continues to play their games. Headphones announced in January and supposed to ship in March. Now may be shipping in July? Just what Oppo did with their PM-1. They want you to keep waiting and not buy from someone else. HiFiMan shouldn't have announced these phones or the HE-560 until they were much closer to be a finalized product. But hey, they've done this before.
 
I own HE-400's and HE-6's. Great phones. I've also lost $400-$500 on the HE-5LE and the HE-500. Purchased the HE-5LE for $899 right before the HE-500 replaced it for the same price. The value of the HE-5LE dropped $200 immediately. There was no advance notice then that the HE-5LE was going to be replaced. Sold the HE-5LE and purchased the HE-500 for $899. Then later the HE-500 was reduced to $699. Even Tyll at Inner Fidelity called HiFiMan out for changing so quickly to the detriment of their earlier customers. Not good for repeat business.
 
It seems to me that a lot of manufacturers assume there will always be more new customers coming into the market. So they seem to think their past actions won't affect their future sales. In the meantime, they alienate their earlier customers who are the ones that got them started and helped make them a success.
 
I'm sure the HE-400i and HE-560 will be good phones whenever they are finally finished and released. I would love to say I would purchase either one of them new, but I can't. I will wait to see how they work out and maybe look for a used pair after I'm sure they are really finalized. I don't want to purchase another HiFiMan product and then find a few months later it has been replaced with a newer version that reduces the value of mine.
 
These are my opinions, YMMV. Just my perspective on things.

 

[jerg]

  So, HiFiMan continues to play their games. Headphones announced in January and supposed to ship in March. Now may be shipping in July? Just what Oppo did with their PM-1. They want you to keep waiting and not buy from someone else. HiFiMan shouldn't have announced these phones or the HE-560 until they were much closer to be a finalized product. But hey, they've done this before.
 
I own HE-400's and HE-6's. Great phones. I've also lost $400-$500 on the HE-5LE and the HE-500. Purchased the HE-5LE for $899 right before the HE-500 replaced it for the same price. The value of the HE-5LE dropped $200 immediately. There was no advance notice then that the HE-5LE was going to be replaced. Sold the HE-5LE and purchased the HE-500 for $899. Then later the HE-500 was reduced to $699. Even Tyll at Inner Fidelity called HiFiMan out for changing so quickly to the detriment of their earlier customers. Not good for repeat business.
 
It seems to me that a lot of manufacturers assume there will always be more new customers coming into the market. So they seem to think their past actions won't affect their future sales. In the meantime, they alienate their earlier customers who are the ones that got them started and helped make them a success.
 
I'm sure the HE-400i and HE-560 will be good phones whenever they are finally finished and released. I would love to say I would purchase either one of them new, but I can't. I will wait to see how they work out and maybe look for a used pair after I'm sure they are really finalized. I don't want to purchase another HiFiMan product and then find a few months later it has been replaced with a newer version that reduces the value of mine.
 
These are my opinions, YMMV. Just my perspective on things.

In my opinion what they are doing might not be best for customer satisfaction, but it is necessary to stay ahead in the Game of Planars^TM, especially now that it is picking up momentum (cue Oppo and probably a bunch of other big companies with their secret projects).

 

[conquerator2]

In my opinion what they are doing might not be best for customer satisfaction, but it is necessary to stay ahead in the Game of Planars^TM, especially now that it is picking up momentum (cue Oppo and probably a bunch of other big companies with their secret projects).

Yeah but he's got a point.
I sincerely hope that one the 560/400i, is out, it won't get revisions quite for some time...
I likewise don't wanna buy a new headphone only to find it it either dropped in price way too soon or got revised after a month.
Sincerely hope HFM won't do that, otherwise I am sure quite a few people would be pissed, me included
included.
They're taking their time so it better pays off the first time.
Look at Audeze - different sounding pairs, revisions, now the fasor. Some people are pissed and I don't blame them, I'd be too.

 

[marshallmole]

I'm not arguing against either side, but here's what I think:
1. Hifiman's earlier moves on HE-5LE and HE-500 had been somewhat rash, that is true. I think part of the assumption behind that could be firstly to establish the product's market status with a high price tag and then trying to attract more customers by lowering the price. I think the same thing has happened with some of the Beyerdynamic headphones, only their price drop usually come later. I guess this actually has some benefit, if you see how populated the HE-500 thread is, you know they've sold a lot. But of course it hurts their earlier, perhaps more royal customers. 
2. I sometimes hear complaint on the other direction, for example, people say that with all the success in the HD800 sale, Sennheiser should have long earned back their development & design cost, so should lower the price of 800s to further 'open up the market'. 
3. Had Hifiman dropped the price late rather than soon, wouldn't that only annoy/hurt more people? 
4. I think what we're seeing now, is that Hifiman is trying to avoid the revision-pricedrop problem by holding off products until they're sure to be mature. So I believe there's a good chance that no revision would come out soon after the release of 560 and 400i. However, the price drop could be another story. It's really about marketing strategy. Remember that they raised the price of HE-6 and dropped HE-500, probably only to make a distinction in the product line. 
5. And with that I think they should be fine. I mean, revisions probably hurt people more than price drop, I guess most people care more about whether they got a good product than whether they got a good value, while revision certainly indicate that the earlier production is worse in comparison. 
6. In the end, I'd partially agree with dpump not to jump on the newly released product. But most of that decision is only me being cautious and economic. I actually prefer buying used, known-to-last headphones to new releases.

 

[conquerator2]

  I'm not arguing against either side, but here's what I think:
1. Hifiman's earlier moves on HE-5LE and HE-500 had been somewhat rash, that is true. I think part of the assumption behind that could be firstly to establish the product's market status with a high price tag and then trying to attract more customers by lowering the price. I think the same thing has happened with some of the Beyerdynamic headphones, only their price drop usually come later. I guess this actually has some benefit, if you see how populated the HE-500 thread is, you know they've sold a lot. But of course it hurts their earlier, perhaps more royal customers. 
2. I sometimes hear complaint on the other direction, for example, people say that with all the success in the HD800 sale, Sennheiser should have long earned back their development & design cost, so should lower the price of 800s to further 'open up the market'. 
3. Had Hifiman dropped the price late rather than soon, wouldn't that only annoy/hurt more people? 
4. I think what we're seeing now, is that Hifiman is trying to avoid the revision-pricedrop problem by holding off products until they're sure to be mature. So I believe there's a good chance that no revision would come out soon after the release of 560 and 400i. However, the price drop could be another story. It's really about marketing strategy. Remember that they raised the price of HE-6 and dropped HE-500, probably only to make a distinction in the product line. 
5. And with that I think they should be fine. I mean, revisions probably hurt people more than price drop, I guess most people care more about whether they got a good product than whether they got a good value, while revision certainly indicate that the earlier production is worse in comparison. 
6. In the end, I'd partially agree with dpump not to jump on the newly released product. But most of that decision is only me being cautious and economic. I actually prefer buying used, known-to-last headphones to new releases.

 
1. I think dropping the price later has a lesser effect than dropping it shortly after launch. Some sort of price drop is always expected and it always comes, but it rarely comes sooner than say 6 months+ after launch, unless the said product does not sell well, where the price drop might come sooner rather than later.
By lowering prices early, HFM was/would be hurting the early adopters/royal buyers, who spread the word initially and helped their success or spread in the first place.
In their defense, the HE-5/5LE was their first foray into the headphone field, so I can't really blame them for handling this perfectly. My first purchase from them was the HE-6, which is still holding up very well at their retail. Also, the recent lowering of the 500/400 price, just before the 560/400i release, was a good move IMO as you can kinda call it a clearance price before the said products are discontinued. It was definitely not perfect [and the earliest adopters have the right to be pissed] but HFM hopefully learnt their lesson.
That is, fast price drops and revisions are not a good thing for consumers and their business, and that's exactly why [I reckon] they're taking their time now to do it right the first time through. Much better approach than revisions and price drops, certainly!
 
2. That'd be nice but Sennheiser actually did the opposite! In Europe, the HD800 actually went up in price a year or so ago [from $1300 to $1500]. It's now the same for EU and US but it'd be nice to have something cheaper for once, especially since they're manufactured in Germany.
 
3.I don't think so, more in point 1.
 
4.Certainly hope so, see point 1. They probably did drop/rise the price to make a distinction in the line-up [HE-6 went from $1099 to $1299 and HE-500 went from $899 to $699]. I bought the HE-6 later at $1299, but since the headphone is worth the price [much like the HE-500 seemed to be actually worth even the initial $899]. Still if I bought the headphone and a week later the price would drop, I'd still be pretty angry.
 
5.Yes, exactly. I 100% agree with this. Revisions are certainly much more harmful IMO. With price drops, you do lose some money if you're planning to sell the headphone but with revisions, most of the time you're stuck with a worse product [unless said company is willing to upgrade your pair to a newer revision for free or for a small fee] which might bring the price down even more than a price drop would. More often than not, a revision does something significant to make the product better and again, this really is a punch in the face to the early adopters.
So bottom line, price drops are IMO somewhat tolerable and understandable, while revisions only deter you from further purchases.
 
6. Buying a new headphone is certainly a big unknown. With the HE-400 for instance, the rev.1 headphone was significantly different than rev.2, which was then superior to rev.3, which was then replaced again by rev.2 [or rev.4 if you will]. The rev.3 replacements were free of charge so kudos to HFM for that though.
With the HE-560/400i, being an early adopter here myself, the situation will be hopefully much better as I believe HFM is planning to make the "final" release later this month their last for the 560. They're hopefully NOT planning any revisions at least for a year or so [hopefully indicated by them really trying to get it right the first time] or any too-soon price drops [which, to get the R&D associated with the 560/400i back would not be viable for them anyway].
If they do, I really don't know what my reaction would be on that... Not positive, that's for sure!
 
Glad we can get a nice discussion going 

 

[TeamHiFiMAN]

Hi,
First of all we want to apologize again for the delay of HE-560 as well as HE-400i.

Yes, we should have probably waited a bit longer to announce, but we announced because we thought that they were ready. When we first announced them back in CES, we did have two working prototypes that are ready for production. My point is that we didn't do that on purpose. It's certainly not our intention.
 
Hifiman is a still young company, and we are growing together with the headphone community. I promise that we will do better next time, and great appreciate all your feedback.

Regarding to product revision I think that comparing to other companies we have don pretty good on this other than the HE-400. Looking at HD800 from the largest headphone manufacture in the world. We all know that there are different versions of HD800, and the company never said anything about that. I don't want to sound like what we are looking for excuses, but I do want you to know that we don't make decision like this lightly, and we will do our best to avoid doing that. 
 
btw, I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who took the time to visit our booth at Newport show this past weekend. 

 

[MattTCG]

We didn't see many reports on the he400i from the show. I wonder why.

 

[TeamHiFiMAN]

We didn't see many reports on the he400i from the show. I wonder why.

 
I think it has something to do with HE-560. It received all the attention.
 
We also specially tried to not to promote it too heavily because honestly the shipping is still about two months away.
 
Both Woo Audio/MA Recording and Affordable Audio booth have a HE-400i on their table. The feedback we got is very positive. 

 

[conquerator2]

   
I think it has something to do with HE-560. It received all the attention.
 
We also specially tried to not to promote it too heavily because honestly the shipping is still about two months away.
 
Both Woo Audio/MA Recording and Affordable Audio booth have a HE-400i on their table. The feedback we got is very positive. 

Hi guys,
We're just talking about something in the meantime, don't take it to heart that much. We know you're all doing your best.
I am personally not angry at all, only slightly annoyed by the [repeated] delays of the HE-560 but I understand it's for the best and as long as there are no revisions soon, the wait will be worth it 

 
So while the 400i is still at least two months away, how's the 560 shaping up?
 
A week or two ago, you announced that the headphone will start shipping during the first 2 weeks of June. Then at THE Show, Dr. Fang, I believe said that the HE-560 is still 3 weeks away from shipping... So will it ship mid/late June or sooner?
Also, will you ship it to dealers right away? I've pre-ordered at a dealer of yours and am hoping to get the headphone as soon as you start shipping 

 
Thanks!

 

[marshallmole]

Originally Posted by conquerator2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
We're just talking about something in the meantime, don't take it to heart that much. We know you're all doing your best.
 

That's for sure. I think Hifiman has a good team that really care about their customers, and also trying to be honest (perhaps more so than average). What they have to do is only to learn how to manage things smoothly. Hifi industry definitely has its own peculiarity. 
For me, patience is one trait that I don't need to learn to own.