[drwlf]

Both have their own sound (frequency response), 400i maybe a tad more mid/treble oriented, with Q701 bit darker with more (lower quality) bass, I'd say maybe the Q701 wins high/mid/bass balance, but when you're taking such a step back in terms of resolution, it's a bit like a mountain bike vs light bike with slim tires... Rolling fine pavement it's a no brainer, race bike is very smooth & fast, but given many roads are in **** condition (not great recordings), mountain bike might make a better ride; slower, but much less bumpy, but way less maneuverable, way slower & heavier... Different beasts.

Wrong.
Q701 is a far less even headphone FR-wise. It's a brighter, peaky nightmare, with no bass extension at all compared to the 400i. The only time one could reckon the Q701 as bassier than the 400i, would be your first visit to planars without your brain being accustomed to how the sound is being generated, and/or the tracks bass won't extend under 100hz.
Q701 and dark do not belong in the same sentence. Ever.
The treble on the Q701 is artificially elevated along the lines of the "reference" models of years past. It is quite resolute, and does indeed throw the detail to you, more so than the 400i.

Q701 has a poor mans HD800-vibe to it. Pair it with a tube amp, and it's actually quite lovely.
The soundstage is unnaturally wide, which works well in classical music for example.

 

[GirgleMirt]

Wrong.

LOL

Q701 is a far less even headphone FR-wise. It's a brighter, peaky nightmare, with no bass extension at all compared to the 400i. The only time one could reckon the Q701 as bassier than the 400i, would be your first visit to planars without your brain being accustomed to how the sound is being generated, and/or the tracks bass won't extend under 100hz.
Q701 and dark do not belong in the same sentence. Ever.

I said darker. Say you have a 400lbs woman and a 390lbs women and I say the 390 woman is lighter, that does not mean that the 390lbs woman is light by any means, simply that in comparison to the 400lbs woman, she weighs less.

Do the test yourself, take a pair of Q701 and a pair of 400i, and play the same material one after the other, you will notice that the 400i's bass feels lighter than the Q701's. The 400i's bass does extend lower, it has much better definition, but the Q701 will sound darker. It may well be distinct sound of dynamic vs planar, it may well be distortion (more 'boomy'?) or whatever else, but I'm sure 99% of folk who would listen to one after the other would agree with me. Maybe it's sample difference also who knows...

The treble on the Q701 is artificially elevated along the lines of the "reference" models of years past. It is quite resolute, and does indeed throw the detail to you, more so than the 400i.

Weird, the Q701's treble has never seemed to me to be more detailed than the 400i's, quite the opposite...!

But yeah we're on the same page about bass quality & extension, for these two, 400i > Q701. My point, which again having listened to 5 different tracks alternating between Q701 & 400i, the 400i has 'lighter' bass in comparison to Q701. If you're any kind of basshead, which often goes for quantity rather than quality, just alternating between both, you might prefer the Q701. I think even most people prefer a warmer sound (vs purely neutral), and again, Q701 might take the cake here.

fwiw, I think it really wouldn't hurt the 400i to have a bit more bass, it does sound a bit leaner compared to Q701, and although increasing the bass might make it a less accurate transducer, it might make it a bit more pleasant. I think that the fact that the bass is cleaner also does seem to make it less present... ymmv, EQ, etc.

 

[DavidA]

@GirgleMirt, I think your notion of differences in samples might account for your impressions on the Q701 being darker than the HE400i. The Q701 that I tried was quite bright and would put them as brighter than the HE400i like @drwlf. The Q701 also lacked any bass compared to my HE400i which to me has much more quantity and quality bass over the Q701. FYI my HE400i is the older version with the back plate / SMC connectors which might account for some of the different impression here.

 

[GirgleMirt]

Interesting... And yeah darker might have been the wrong word, warmer is more typically used I think... My 400i are relatively new, latest model, like 3-4 months old, Q701 are 4 year old. Also I wouldn't say that the Q701 are brighter, if anything I think the 400i sound in general brighter; have a 'sparklier' top end, I definitely wouldn't label Q701 as bright sounding headphones, more neutral than bright imho..

Listening to a track with really hard hitting heavy drums, bells, strings and female vocals, and the drums are way louder on the Q701 compared to vocals, the drums really occupy most of the musical space; it's mainly drums, then voice/strings, and the bells are barely audible. 400i, the vocals are definitely more forward and the drums are more distant, what is mostly drumcentric on Q701, isn't nearly as drumcentric on 400i, almost like half drums half vocals, and the bells seem to ring louder and are more audible on the 400i too.

Another track again with heavy drums;

On Q701, the drums really have weight and dominate the space. The Beyers 990 take it to overdrive and the drums are even more dominating. They're YUGE. The 400i in contrast to both, are the well behaved child; The drums are definitely less loud when compared to the vocals, and sound smaller than both Q701 and 990s... "less weight" But they're definitely cleaner, better imaging, and I don't doubt that they're in a way more accurate, but they definitely don't sound as 'big' as the other 2...

Like this passage:

The Q701's has the big drums resonate not just on both sides of your head, but also like they're so big they even go 'in' your head if that make any sense. They sound BIG. On the 400i, the two drums sound more distant, and you get way less reverberation/vibration/(?distortion/'boominess'?), like smaller drums on both sides of your head... They sound more civilized; more in control in a sense...

So yeah, looks like there can be some crazy sample variance...!!! drwlf, do you also own the Q701 to compare?

 

[DavidA]

@GirgleMirt, love the music suggestion, since I don't have access to a Q701 I'll take your word for your impressions. Comparing the HE400i to a DT990 they both don't do the song justice, the mids are too recessed on both and bass bleed is also a problem. Bass on the HE400i goes lower, is more detailed, and has a touch more quantity than the DT-990 but is still over done. See if you can listen to the song on either a RS2e or EL8, these two really make the song come to life.

 

[drwlf]

@GirgleMirt @DavidA at worky, let's see if I have time to fire them up later on today.
Seems a bit odd, but let's investigate.
@GirgleMirt How long do you have on your 400i, have they been your daily drivers for let's say, two weeks (without going back and forth often with other cans during that time); and are they your first planars?

 

[GirgleMirt]

DavidA: "love the music suggestion". Great! Gives us a reference also as to what we're talking about! Just wished well all had access to a less compressed version and better sounding version *cough*google*cough*, but yeah does the trick... Btw, what did you mean by bass bleed (for headphones)? Sadly no access to RS2e or EL8 for me..

But 400i more bass than 990?! *mind explodes*

After many back and forth of 400i and DT990 600 ohms Premium, I think I can somewhat see where you're coming from... Assuming we're hearing the same thing, the 400i's bass is just superior to 990s, much more impact, depth, definition, etc., but, the 990, like the Q701's bass, still has a tendency to sound bigger. It might well be a result of, as drwlf stated, the Q701's and 990's 'unnaturally' large soundstages; pretty much everything sounds wider, so in a sense, bigger... 400i's imaging is just way better, but with this clarity, sounds seem smaller and better defined, the other two have sounds which seems way wider but much less defined.

Just ignoring 400i vs 990 comparison, the 990, imho, has more bass respective to its mids/treble. The 400i imho isn't as basscentric as the 990, 990s bass (and treble..) is kinda overwhelming, 400i bass is a lot more 'tame' and just better balanced with its mids/highs. When you switch to the 400i, if you adjust the volume for bass, it's clear that the 400i's bass is just way more powerful; it sounds way heavier, the 990's bass seems mostly mid bass & sounds light & somewhat weak and 'plastic' in comparison. But if you adjust volume for the mids, then the 990's bass is just way more in proportion to its own mids, and for the 400i, it's way less bass compared to its own mids.

I guess maybe the difference in what we're hearing isn't so much sample variance but how we level match when switching phones, and how we qualify bass, for instance, vs its own self or vs other headphones... I'm certain the same goes for the Q701, level match for bass, the Q701 will sound bass light, but level match for mids, and then you'll get more bass (with less extension) with Q701 vs the mids compared to 400i. Anyway, maybe it's still wrong, seems to make sense for me that way! lol

Reading my earlier comments, I can definitely see how I could have come across; seeming to say that you can get 'more' bass with Q701 or something... But yeah, I was quantifying the bass in respect to their own mids/treble; the bass balance with the 'more bass', definitely not just comparing bass vs bass!

drwlf: Had 400i for like 3-4 months, had a pair for a few weeks before I had to send back because of defect. My dailies (workhorses) are AKG 550, Bosshifi b8, can't use open at work, so open are nights/weekend only, so my 'palate' is dynamic for sure. 1st planars yes, and somewhat strangely, there's been a whole lot of switching between all phones since the 400i arrived... Listen to a few songs, then at one point have to stop and try the others to compare and get a better feel... So whole lot of switching! Definitely have not been using only the 400i for a week or two! They're getting maybe <10% head time, due to majority listening time at work..

 

[drwlf]

@GirgleMirt my impressions might be pushed for the weekend, unbelievably busy. Not like I'm expecting them to change, as I've done extensive comparisons with several people on several occasions, but perhaps I'd be more satisfied with my comments afterwards

And related to the other: I don't think the soundstage is the issue at play here, it should have the vice versa effect on the bass, and perhaps its relative position matters more; if its further back, and unnaturally wide: the bass doesn't have the same impact/feel if the soundstage is narrow and closer to you/in your head. Think about where you would stand/sit related to the orchesta/band, and what kind of a venue/placement it'd be.

And you did in fact answer my question, where I could see one major problem:
I thought the Q701 had more bass for the first weeks I had the 400i, as it was my first planar, and it took my brain to accommodate mainly on how the sound is being generated. The so-called brain burn in on the technical side, (not to mention how it takes a while for your brain to accommodate and get accustomed to the wholly different FR), is quite a task for your brain.
The airwaves no longer comes from a directed small cone to your ear: but from a larger vibrating plane. My suggestion to actually get past this brain burn in, is listen to them, and nothing else for a couple of weeks.

Additionally, the thing with dynamics drivers, (excluding the latest tech) in general: as they technically cannot push out the sub-bass, there's a hump in the mid-bass accentuating our perception of the bass. It's basically always there, in its relation to the sub-bass roll off, the amount just differs depending on the can.
If it's highly pronounced, it's probably viewed as a 'basshead' can, and it does indeed "its job" for the most genres where people crave for bass. It doesn't mean that it recreates the bass technically well or accurately, and certainly doesn't work for all the genres. I could point you out to some IDM goodness - basically I can't even listen to most of the EDM stuff, as the sub-bass is either wholly forgotten; most likely due to production issues, as the texture there might be hard to hear, or haven't been heard at all whilst producing the track - works well if you can't hear the flaws.

And again, there's a difference on how the driver creates the bass, dynamic drivers have this snappier thump/kick which the planars do not have. It's been covered here before, the description varies: but it's related on how the air is being moved from a technical standpoint. Depending on the description, you might even assume that planars lack the bass impact/slam; it's not the case, it's just generated differently, and its feel overall differs. I've described my LCD-X for example having face-melting qualities in that department.
And yeah, volume matching is important as well

 

[DavidA]

@GirgleMirt, another thing to consider is my HE400i is the older one with the back plate which after hearing 2 newer ones without the back plate has a bit more bass quantity and I think it also goes lower since I can start to hear sound at a lower frequency (2-3 hz difference) when I did a few frequency sweeps. It also has sorbothane in the cups and on parts of the back plate to help clean up the sound a bit and the grill mod. My DT990 premium 250ohm is stock except for the mini-XLR jacks I installed. A few pictures of my HE400i:


Bass bleed is when the lower frequencies start to affect the mids due to being overly emphasized.

These days my HE400i and DT990 premium 250ohm get little use since I've built my Ypsilon R1 and Nhoord Red V2 Grado clones, better dynamics, a more balanced frequency response, and easy to drive from my computer headphone jacks. They may not be the most comfortable to some but for me the light weight and use of the large G pads lets me use them for 8-10 hours at a time. The HE400i, HD650, K7XX and DT990 are all quite comfortable but its too humid here in Hawaii and it doesn't help that I live very close to the ocean so after an hour or two they all get a little warm and sweaty for me.

 

[Wyville]

How are the HE-400i in terms of realism and ability to reproduce complex classical music such as symphonies? Also, how are vocals on these?

I have always only used IEMs and recently got myself some VE Monk+ earbuds to allow my ears to recover from pressure-related issues caused by my CEIMs. After a while I was quite surprised by how much I like the open and airy sound. Because there are few IEMs that can do that and those that can are very expensive, I am starting to explore open-back headphones. For now at least I only have my AK70 to drive them, so that will limit my options, but the HE-400i seem like a good choice at a decent price.

I prefer a signature with the bass slightly north of neutral, warmer mids and slightly recessed treble. Does that match the HE-400i well?

 

[pbarach]

How are the HE-400i in terms of realism and ability to reproduce complex classical music such as symphonies? Also, how are vocals on these?

I have always only used IEMs and recently got myself some VE Monk+ earbuds to allow my ears to recover from pressure-related issues caused by my CEIMs. After a while I was quite surprised by how much I like the open and airy sound. Because there are few IEMs that can do that and those that can are very expensive, I am starting to explore open-back headphones. For now at least I only have my AK70 to drive them, so that will limit my options, but the HE-400i seem like a good choice at a decent price.

I prefer a signature with the bass slightly north of neutral, warmer mids and slightly recessed treble. Does that match the HE-400i well?

These are not the headphones you're looking for. I listen almost exclusively to classical music. The 400i are brighter than I'd like, and there is no sense of air around the music. They are fatiguing to me. I much prefer Sennheiser HD-600. If you watch any recent videos of classical music being recorded, you'll see that the producer and the engineers are wearing HD-600s in the control room.

 

[Wyville]

These are not the headphones you're looking for. I listen almost exclusively to classical music. The 400i are brighter than I'd like, and there is no sense of air around the music. They are fatiguing to me. I much prefer Sennheiser HD-600. If you watch any recent videos of classical music being recorded, you'll see that the producer and the engineers are wearing HD-600s in the control room.

Really? Food for thought! I do like what I read about the HD-600, but the one issue is they are 300 Ohms and I am not sure if my AK70 can drive them properly. Plus, I haven't the faintest clue as to what amp would work well with my AK and the HD-600. I will have a look around. Thanks!

 

[peter123]

Really? Food for thought! I do like what I read about the HD-600, but the one issue is they are 300 Ohms and I am not sure if my AK70 can drive them properly. Plus, I haven't the faintest clue as to what amp would work well with my AK and the HD-600. I will have a look around. Thanks!

FWIW I've got the HD650 and the HE400i are as hard to drive as the Sennheisers so if your ok with one the other should be fine as well.

I also don't find the HE400i to be bright in any way so as always YMMV......

 

[Wyville]

FWIW I've got the HD650 and the HE400i are as hard to drive as the Sennheisers so if your ok with one the other should be fine as well.

I also don't find the HE400i to be bright in any way so as always YMMV......

Thanks! How do the two compare? I understand the HD650 is a little warmer than the HD600 and I do like a warmer sound, probably because I am quite sensitive to sharp treble or a generally bright signature.

I wonder if anyone has tried to drive the HD600/650 with the AK70. I know it is powerful DAP, but 300 Ohms is also quite a lot.

 

[peter123]

Thanks! How do the two compare? I understand the HD650 is a little warmer than the HD600 and I do like a warmer sound, probably because I am quite sensitive to sharp treble or a generally bright signature.

I wonder if anyone has tried to drive the HD600/650 with the AK70. I know it is powerful DAP, but 300 Ohms is also quite a lot.

Yeah, when I read your decsription of what you wanted from your new headphones I thought of the HD650. I don't listen to classical music but I could imagine the HD650 to lack some sub bass and soundstage width. Personally I find the HD650 to borderline being too warm but its midrange reproduction is just sublime so I still enjoy them quite a bit.

It's my experience is that the HE400i is harder to drive than what one would think from reading about it while the opposite goes for the HD650 (once again in my experience, YMMV). I'd suggest a amplifier to get the best out of either though, that being said I've never heard any of them with the AK70......