[Kendoji]

HD800 sounds subpar in its stock-configuation or unEQ'd, despite its technica merits...  HD650 and HD600 are awesome.  Amazing how a company just makes crappier products with every successive release.

:eek: :blink:

 

[TMRaven]

I am being sensible.     I'm not paying 1000 bucks or 1500 bucks for headphones that are flawed in their tuning-- despite the their technical merits.  I don't know how Sennheiser went from such a winner in the HD600 to such a loser in the HD700 after 10+ years.

 

[davidsh]

The hd700 would be very nice in the 500$ range.

 

[MattTCG]

^^ the hd 700 is possibly my least favorite of the hdx00 line. I just couldn't warm up to it...pun intended. 

 

[conquerator2]

  ^^ the hd 700 is possibly my least favorite of the hdx00 line. I just couldn't warm up to it...pun intended. 

I had no problem warming up to a HE-6, possibly the coldest of the HiFiMANs, yet my first true audiophile headphone 

When you do it right, you do it right 

 
[Previous headphone being the Pro900

]

 

[Tingc222]

  I had no problem warming up to a HE-6, possibly the coldest of the HiFiMANs, yet my first true audiophile headphone 

When you do it right, you do it right 

 
[Previous headphone being the Pro900

]

The He-6 is slightly bright, quite dynamic. I think he meant not warm as in = dark? The HD650 for instance is a very dark phone to my ears, but not the HE-6

 

[Sonido]

^^ the hd 700 is possibly my least favorite of the hdx00 line. I just couldn't warm up to it...pun intended. 

Stock HD700 is warmer than stock HD800 if I remember. I've owned both.

 

[conquerator2]

  The He-6 is slightly bright, quite dynamic. I think he meant not warm as in = dark? The HD650 for instance is a very dark phone to my ears, but not the HE-6

Yeah, but the point being, the HE-6 does not have any offensive spikes in the FR [at least not to my ears], it is just bright, but it's something you'll get used to it and ignore over time.
While a headphone, which is not bright but has a sharp spike somewhere [be it bass or treble], well you can never fully get used to that [like the Audio Technica treble spike for instance, or some AKG, though these are mostly just bright].
 
I can't find the HD700 spike anywhere in the graphs but from what I understand, it has some sort of treble harshness somewhere.

 

[dleblanc343]

  I am being sensible.     I'm not paying 1000 bucks or 1500 bucks for headphones that are flawed in their tuning-- despite the their technical merits.  I don't know how Sennheiser went from such a winner in the HD600 to such a loser in the HD700 after 10+ years.

The HD700 definitely isn't an examplary product from Sennheiser, but it's still a very apt headphone technical-wise. It's just that it has a flawed FR, it's peaky and unengaging. I've heard the HD800 in stock configuration on many systems where it was fantastic; I can't agree with "flawed" when there's just one notable bump in its sound.
 
According to your logic, everything would be flawed in their tuning. It's impossible to tune headphones to perfection unlike high end speakers.

 

[pdrm360]

  I am being sensible.     I'm not paying 1000 bucks or 1500 bucks for headphones that are flawed in their tuning-- despite the their technical merits.  I don't know how Sennheiser went from such a winner in the HD600 to such a loser in the HD700 after 10+ years.

 
The HD700 wasn't as disappointing as the HE-400 was for me.  I had both. 

 

[zxc]

The merit of HD700 is that it can produce frequencies high and low. And it's light to wear. That's it. The frequency repsonse is totally unbalanced. I just can't tolerate it. Even the DT-990 sounds better with it exaggerated V-shaped response. Sennheiser was aggressive in asking $1000 for it, and the market responded: It's $650 everywhere. I'm returning mine tomorrow. I am not sure if IE800 is priced appropriately either... 
 
The HD800, I wouldn't dare say much negative. No, I don't prefer it to the HE-500. But HD800 is literally a marvel of engineering. Just the pad design is miles ahead of all other headphones in production today. Yeah, the frequency response may not be the most enjoyable; but the detail and sound stage is as good as it gets. Now, given the constraints of the dynamic driver technology, perhaps this is the best there can be done... At least I have no reason to think otherwise. 
 
The HE-500 looks like school project in comparison, the stiff and noisy cable, cheap molded jack, etc. But it works well. I can wear it for hours without much discomfort. Its headband is much better designed than the Audeze's (which presses the top of your head from a single point.) Most of all, I love the sound. I've been listening to the HD600 for over 11 years, and this is the closest thing there is. Just beautiful. If Hifiman manages to fill in the gap between 1Khz and 6Khz a tad, it'd be a pure beauty; a super HD600. 
 
Does Sennheiser work on an ortho? They can't afford not to.

 

[TMRaven]

Dleblanc, I can only halfly agree with that statement.  Achieving very even frequency response from bass to treble was achieved pretty easily with the HD600 15 years ago.  Of course it's not the technical juggernaut the HD800 is, and at the lowest bass and highest of treble there's roll-off, and it's not as adept in micro-dynamics, but hey for something that's 15 years old I'd still take it over an HD800 purely based on tuning.  HD800 stock for a lot of people might be fine, but too thin for me, that's my personal taste though.  I wouldn't own anything less than HE-400/LCD2 level of bass output and extension.  Sennheiser made a very distinct tuning decision with the HD800, they took the treble response from 6khz on up and gave it a boost-- think of it as plateau'd treble.  
 
I'm sure all this sounds extremely condescending coming from a guy who loves the HE-400 and EQ's its treble down for desired effect, but at the same time I'm not spending 1500 bucks for something I find to be fundamentally flawed.  It's the same reason why I'm not in any hurry to buy an LCD, because I find its mellowness to be fundamentally flawed as well for such an expensive headphone, although at the end of the day I'd take a stock LCD over a stock HD800 because I find its tuning decision to be less problematic than the HD800.
 
I guess what I'm trying to get it is I admire Sennheiser and their very technically competent headphones, but I ultimately despise them as a company because in the last 15 years their headphones seem to be getting worse and worse in terms of frequency balance.  It's so disappointing they nailed an even sound so long ago, and have since then created headphones that are getting more and more colored.  Think what Sennheiser could have done with a headphone as well engineered as an HD800, but without their heads stuck in their asses and falling into the 'more treble = detail' audiophool camp.
 
The only caveat to this argument is that I have not tried an Anax modded HD800, although I would like to at one point.

 

[mrscotchguy]

Funny how a Hifiman thread just turned into a HD700/HD800 flame...

 

[jerg]

  The merit of HD700 is that it can produce frequencies high and low. And it's light to wear. That's it. The frequency repsonse is totally unbalanced. I just can't tolerate it. Even the DT-990 sounds better with it exaggerated V-shaped response. Sennheiser was aggressive in asking $1000 for it, and the market responded: It's $650 everywhere. I'm returning mine tomorrow. I am not sure if IE800 is priced appropriately either... 
 
The HD800, I wouldn't dare say much negative. No, I don't prefer it to the HE-500. But HD800 is literally a marvel of engineering. Just the pad design is miles ahead of all other headphones in production today. Yeah, the frequency response may not be the most enjoyable; but the detail and sound stage is as good as it gets. Now, given the constraints of the dynamic driver technology, perhaps this is the best there can be done... At least I have no reason to think otherwise. 
 
The HE-500 looks like school project in comparison, the stiff and noisy cable, cheap molded jack, etc. But it works well. I can wear it for hours without much discomfort. Its headband is much better designed than the Audeze's (which presses the top of your head from a single point.) Most of all, I love the sound. I've been listening to the HD600 for over 11 years, and this is the closest thing there is. Just beautiful. If Hifiman manages to fill in the gap between 1Khz and 6Khz a tad, it'd be a pure beauty; a super HD600. 
 
Does Sennheiser work on an ortho? They can't afford not to.

I have a nagging feeling though, that the dip between 1kHz and 6kHz constitutes the Hifiman house sound, for better or for worse.

 

[dleblanc343]

  Dleblanc, I can only halfly agree with that statement.  Achieving very even frequency response from bass to treble was achieved pretty easily with the HD600 15 years ago.  Of course it's not the technical juggernaut the HD800 is, and at the lowest bass and highest of treble there's roll-off, and it's not as adept in micro-dynamics, but hey for something that's 15 years old I'd still take it over an HD800 purely based on tuning.  HD800 stock for a lot of people might be fine, but too thin for me, that's my personal taste though.  I wouldn't own anything less than HE-400/LCD2 level of bass output and extension.  Sennheiser made a very distinct tuning decision with the HD800, they took the treble response from 6khz on up and gave it a boost-- think of it as plateau'd treble.  
 
I'm sure all this sounds extremely condescending coming from a guy who loves the HE-400 and EQ's its treble down for desired effect, but at the same time I'm not spending 1500 bucks for something I find to be fundamentally flawed.  It's the same reason why I'm not in any hurry to buy an LCD, because I find its mellowness to be fundamentally flawed as well for such an expensive headphone, although at the end of the day I'd take a stock LCD over a stock HD800 because I find its tuning decision to be less problematic than the HD800.
 
I guess what I'm trying to get it is I admire Sennheiser and their very technically competent headphones, but I ultimately despise them as a company because in the last 15 years their headphones seem to be getting worse and worse in terms of frequency balance.  It's so disappointing they nailed an even sound so long ago, and have since then created headphones that are getting more and more colored.  Think what Sennheiser could have done with a headphone as well engineered as an HD800, but without their heads stuck in their asses and falling into the 'more treble = detail' audiophool camp.
 
The only caveat to this argument is that I have not tried an Anax modded HD800, although I would like to at one point.

The HD600 is a very neutral headphone, but it's been trumped by many by today's standards. The HD600 still remains one of my favorite headphones because it's not ultra quick which gives it a smooth and relaxed sound.
 
I agree Sennheiser parted from their old house of sound (rich and warm for most cases... or Senn veil...) and that the new generation of headphones all seem to take clarity and transparency more seriously. I can't say the HD800's are the most musical headphones out there, but I like the direction they took with it. The IE800 on the other hand is not what I would call a reference IEM, but it sounds fantastic for every day use thanks to its musicality. They're kind of like the HE500!