[testrichard]

hifiman 801's business strategy is simply to find the sweet spot pricing point ~ unlike other products which usually is the reversal to have price high up then drop down during increase of production over time!!

what would you feel if you r early adopter of that strategy ? knowing your $2000 Laptop now is worth less than $400 ??

801's price is to test the feedback while pass on by the word of mouth to people..... in common sense one would like to break even as soon as possible to recoup the initial R&D cost ~

Head-direct is taking a big gamble to do the reverse, if 801 fail then head-direct wont be able to recoup the initial R&D cost..... would any one care? or would just laugh at their failure?

 

[testrichard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull9813 /img/forum/go_quote.gif by implying that I'm a liar. No, I did not know of this player until a graduating student of this school engaged in a conversation with me about audio fidelity only a few days ago and introduced me to this player, AMP3, and head-fi when I showed him my Cowon A3. I have a bare minimum of posts and only joined after he told me about it last weekend. You should know your role before you throw out such accusations.

again, i didnt refer you as liar ~ i was trying to tell every one whats happening in chinese audio website ! and my later one is in general as i point out if you r late comer than its bad luck ~(i missed last thursday's 40 million jackpot while it opened in my area..... i ask myself if i had bought the ticket it might just be me ?) then i refer to people who knew this all alone since may and still waiting over the fence ~

i know my role as i wasnt referring to you after my 801 impression post but you just have to link my post to you

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull9813 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course you're going to be happy. You got the product for the bare minimum, plus some more to show for it. You're not in my situation and don't have to deal with my circumstances so you're dealing replies with that bias in mind. Not to mention the hint of bragging added into the beginning of your post.

but i waited 4 months and the mental torture~ people who checked my past msg knew that at one point i give up on head-direct..... privately i was even worry this is simply a ponzi scheme ~ so your comment isnt fair to me as you too didnt read all my past post as well

what makes you think my situation is better than you? and say i m bias? i m not blind supporter of fang~ my past post says all. does it ever occur to you that at the time of my impression post may be i havent read your post yet ?? therefore it sound like bragging or showing off to you?

the economic is tough and does it all to every one, but why blame some one while you have the option to buy or not? the money is still in your hand isnt it ? did some one cheated the money off from your hand yet ? nope

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull9813 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I state again that these economic times aren't easy to contend with, so that's the problem I had when he jacked up the price as high as he could.

again, the final price notice has been there since may~so it wasnt sudden jump

and again, international buyer who paying $600 in may is equal to the $ 700 you r paying now due to U$ depreciation ~ what do you think how they feel watching HM 801 getting cheaper and cheaper actually compare to what they were paying..... so we should blame US government as whole then ? or my Australia government for jacking up AU$ ??

yes in these economic situation, every one is tough. important thing is not spending what you cant and you r doing exactly that so you r making wise decision !! i m not being sarcastic here, i m referring to people use credit on purchase when they mistake their priority and thats what got us all in this mess.

 

[windfury]

For man like me or BraBrahmaBull9813 who doesnot want to pay more on portable setup like 801.the price will be a little high.

But...appreciation price has been exist for many months already...sorry for your bad luck

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull9813 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Folks, I'm sorry to say that, at this moment in time, I've decided that I won't be getting the HM-801.

A perfectly fine decision. Everyone is permitted to make the decision for themselves.

Quote:

Apparently, Fang has jumped the gun and increased the price to $790 starting January 2010. It's already been aforementioned by others that these are harsh economic times. I'm positive he has read those statements.

Just because these are "harsh economic times" does not mean that a businessman ought to lose money and/or not make a decent profit from his efforts. During these harsh economic times I am unable to purchase an Orpheus and the $40 000 turn table I lust after. During the best of economic times I would not be able to afford these either. I simply do not make enough to have the disposable income to drop on very high priced audio items. Should I belittle SME (can't do the same to Sennheiser since they no longer offer the Orpheus) for not offering the turn table in a price range I can afford (it used to cost $20k when it first came out 20 years ago). Of course not. I am a potential customer in as much as, if SME continues to offer the turn table and I in turn continue to lust after it, then, in time, I may perhaps accumulate the funds to purchase it. Otherwise, I remain a fan, or perhaps a disgruntled person because I don't have the funds to acquire something someone, with their aspirations, decided to create, a cost no object item, in order to be the best or at least among them.

SME is well known for this. Their top products are truly the top of the heap. Fang is aspiring to do the same. A cutting edge audiophile "sound first" unit like no other before it. How much do the DAPs from the likes of Apple, Microsoft and Sony usually cost? Upwards of 4-500? Yes. What about something like the iPhone? 700-800. These types of items sell in the millions and have massive companies developing them via multiple departments with perhaps hundreds of people behind a given unit. There is Fang and his very small team (split between hardware and firmware). Fang puts up the money and must recoup the time it took BEFORE a single unit was sold to repay the companies involved in R&D and production. The $790 price tag may be steep compared to other DAPs but then no other DAP offers what the HM-801 does and for that, it requires a higher output of cash. Not just for the extra audio bells and whistles but also because this is coming from a start-up company and not a multi-billion dollar multi-national corporation.

Quote:

The $100 appreciation discount brought the first pre-order batch down to a solid/reasonable $600. From that, I deduce that the price was actually finally supposed to be $700.

Clearly you deduced incorrectly. Instead of hypothesizing, you could have simply contacted Fang. Or better yet, purchased at the $600 pre-order price.

Quote:

While I argued about certain controversies regarding the player and while I embellished the attributes of this player by extolling it, I now retract it all.

Let me get this straight - prior to ever hearing a unit, you wrote about how it was fundamentally superior, obviously based on specs then without having heard it, but now that the price is outside your spending framework, you retract all you wrote about it? Juvenile at best. In my part of the world this is called sour grapes and it is lame.

Quote:

Although, to some, a $90 price jump doesn't mean a lot, it actually is. That's about 1/7th of the price I construed added to the player. Why $790? I presume to add that '.99' effect to make the player seem cheaper.

Your logic is again sorely lacking. You base your pricing on what you yourself "deduced" without any concrete data to formulate a deduction. Essentially you were guessing. Now, how about a twist of the thought? What if the $600 intro price was a razor thin margin above cost just to entice Head-fiers to dive into a new realm, a new product from a new company? If so, (without even bothering to calculate possible increases in parts and labour nor including the effects of the global recession and the power of individual currencies, particularly the US dollar vs. other currencies world-wide) then the $190 price over the intro price (which went on for quite some time) is actually closer to reality so that people eat, and receive fair compensation and moreover that profits might be rolled back into the company in order to expand and develop other cutting edge products.

Quote:

A solid business plan was providing an honestly made and honestly priced high end portable audio player. The reputation I read of his related to the idea that he provided extraordinary ideas and followed through. I now see that the visionary aspect of him has been outweighed by a money hunger/greed.

You see what you want to see and again you base everything in grand assumptions without any real world data to come to actual real honest conclusions. You have absolutely no idea what the start-up cost was for this item, what the R&D costs were, what the ongoing costs are nor what the production costs are. You have no idea how the economy has changed the pricing nor how currency fluctuations have dynamically altered the financial situation. In essence you know absolutely nothing except that the unit was priced at $600 for a time (a sum you felt was fair) and that you hypothesized would retail for $700 (a sum you again felt was fair) but instead retails for something closer to $800 which is now out of your price range and you feel is inherently unfair. There is absolutely no basis for the ad hominem of money hunger or greed. You insult a person without fact or justification and you come off as a whiney baby.

Quote:

That ruined the business plan for me, when I saw the transparency of the greedy intentions brought about by this price jump demolishing the credibility of everything I've learned about this player.

Attacking people leads to banning on this forum. That is not a threat but a promise.

Quote:

It's an insult to slap audiophiles with such a high price for the sake of it. Some audiophiles, like myself, may have not known of this concept of the HM-801 until after pre-order batch I (in my case, now). Even though I certainly would have immediately put forth attempt to pre-order it at first sight of the news of such a player that I never imagined possible, but always wanted.

The mantra doesn't seem to end. Always based on assumption and never fact.

Quote:

So now we have to pay the price and suffer, and for what? Due to the expected present value of the unit raising?

Those who have paid the sum don't seem to be suffering at all. In fact, folks seem to be quite pleased with the sound of the unit. No one I have read about thus far is buying this with the thought of it increasing in value over time. It does appear that people are buying based on the idea that this unit will sound better than other units and offers the ability to play high res lossless files, something no other (or perhaps very very few) unit(s) do(es).

Quote:

Next month, my parents must pay a housing tax, followed by my semester fees in the month following. In my case, I was already nearly SOL, but willing to try to get this player. Now, I witness the unnecessary price jump with the knowledge of what the player should have been valued at and I'm just appalled.

So finally we really get to the heart of your argument. Mommy and daddy are outlaying cash for their own expenses (which seemingly include your lodging) and then they also have to pay for your schooling. Would it be fair to assume that you don't have a job and were relying on the generosity of your parents to buy this unit? If so, get a job. If you do have a job, and you still can't afford it, I do understand as there are plenty of items I would enjoy owning but can not afford. That said, I don't lambast a manufacturer because I can't buy their wares. We already know how vacuous your argument is about the price increase. No need to carve that argument apart again.

Quote:

Unless you're a masochist, read this, and want the mental torture of being knowingly cheated, then go ahead and buy the unit. I have some common sense that tells me something's not right when this guy puts up his price tag on the player.

Because this is all in a single post, I won't extend the warning to two, but know that if I read you falsely accusing Fang or anyone else again, I'm going to give you a vacation from this site.

Quote:

Appreciation? Pssh, there's no appreciation deserved when one reaps the benefits of others' suffering. Whether it be from an inherent overpricing leading to the greater loss of one for the benefit of the other, or the disappointment brought about by such a situation where a entrepreneur raises the price to a point where one can't afford it for his own gain.

I have not read such a melodramatic post in such a long long time. Who is benefiting from others' suffering? Seriously man get some perspective. A bloody product is out of your price range, suck it up. NO ONE is entitled to any one "product" in this world. If you don't see that then you have much maturing to do before you graduate. There are plenty of people who can afford this unit. Those who can are able to make a decision, to buy or not to buy. Those that want it will buy it. Those that won't, will not. Those that want it but can't afford it will either attempt to collect the funds necessary or will simply do without. I don't sit here festering because I can't afford a Rolls Royce. Maybe I should be? Maybe I should rant on the manufacturer's site, explaining to the world how they are an evil capitalist corporation out to hurt all those poor souls who simply are not in the demographic they base their products on.

 

[fatman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrahmaBull9813 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not 'attempting' to fight with you, and you didn't read my statement. I said it's $790, whilst $700 was the agreeable amount I found. The appreciation price was said to be a '$100 discount', and 10% would go to head-fi.com. That's fair and honest, and something I would invest in. I've done my research. Also, it's not like there are two separate players on sale as you adopted. It's the same product, just jacked up in price. Also, I'm nearly as much an aspiring musician as I am an aspiring doctor. I would spend anything to help my musical intuition, but not if I feel like I'm being used or mistreated. That's what inspired the music in me, not a feeling I want to carry over when I purchase a device that would hold such high sentiment to me. And, the only way you could possibly start an argument is by ticking me off by implying that I'm a liar. No, I did not know of this player until a graduating student of this school engaged in a conversation with me about audio fidelity only a few days ago and introduced me to this player, AMP3, and head-fi when I showed him my Cowon A3. I have a bare minimum of posts and only joined after he told me about it last weekend. You should know your role before you throw out such accusations. Of course you're going to be happy. You got the product for the bare minimum, plus some more to show for it. You're not in my situation and don't have to deal with my circumstances so you're dealing replies with that bias in mind. Not to mention the hint of bragging added into the beginning of your post. I state again that these economic times aren't easy to contend with, so that's the problem I had when he jacked up the price as high as he could. That, by all means, isn't a fair deal to any member of the consumer community. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it like white on rice. And that's my appreciation for the player, and the reason why I've decided not to buy one at this point.

Hi, BrahmaBull9813, thank you for your complain. it will save our Headfiers about $100 each for I can bet Head -direct will not dare to increase the price again.

 

[BrahmaBull9813]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Snip

Cool it with the threats. I read through that post, while some things were logical, it came back to two points where you simply just stated, "I'll remove you from this site if you do it again". It always baffles me to see the limitation of my own expression, even on an internet forum.

Yeah, when I look at it now, he did say "$750-800". My point still is valid and would be valid with anyone else who shares my standpoint. It's not $800, but it's not getting anybody's hopes up if it's in the higher part of that range.

However, read this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f87/updated-hifiman-hm-801-portable-music-player-preorder-424053/ From FAQ: 1. Will payment have to be made now or upon shipping in June ? If you pay now, you will get $100 discount. If you pay on June after the product is available, you won't get $600 discount price.

As a consumer, reading that statement can lead me to my outrage. Many of your points were directed at my 'childish sentiment' and unsupported thesis. Well, read that because it does source everything and I do not retract my angered statements. Half because it's my opinion and half because the support is in the quotation.

You called me a 'whiny little baby' multiple times, in different ways. It's nice to be cliche, but I'm an outraged consumer, not an outraged analytical spokesperson of anti-corporate whatever. Other consumers, looking at my points, may or may not see it the way you do. Therefore, I fail to see how my logic is as flimsy as you made it out to be. I also don't see how you're belittling me, whilst I acknowledge that perspectives can differ, but validity of them bases on person.

Also, tell me where in India I can get that job you're speaking of. Let alone, a job that will pay me sufficiently enough to buy this player and let me study as well. Please do. You made the assumption and imposition that I'm a whiny brat who wants a nicer price and feeds off of mommy and daddy. What you didn't take into account was that your assumptions can't always be right.

I sacrificed that luxury to save my parents money. A huge theme in all my arguments culminates there. Saving them whatever I can. Living off of $2 per day for my food and budgeting even when it seems like I shouldn't have to. That's not too 'overly-sentimental' is it?

Quote:

mel·o·dra·mat·ic (ml-dr-mtk) adj. 1. Having the excitement and emotional appeal of melodrama: "a melodramatic account of two perilous days spent among the planters" (Frank O. Gatell). 2. Exaggeratedly emotional or sentimental; histrionic: "Accuse me, if you will, of melodramatic embroidery" (Erskine Childers). 3. Characterized by false pathos and sentiment.

There's no part of my statement that exudes that characteristic. While you may, again, assume as such, I felt it when I said it and I know what I said has nothing at all to do with melodrama.

I've also been very clear that I only found out about this last weekend. I even said I would buy the unit had I known months earlier.

How did I know that this was a high fidelity audio player? Aside from the testimonials and incessant research, I saw the specifications. As a musician, I already know that something which uses an amplifier in terms of audio equipment is probably pretty damn powerful. And for it to playback the bit-rate of 24/96 was another thing which I was educated about and knew that it must be really really up there to certifiably play such a bit-rate that I haven't seen listed on any other player's specifications before.

You also imposed the idea of your desire to buy a $40,000 dollar piece of equipment. I'm talking realistic consumer perspective and am getting that shoved in my face. I couldn't dream of spending that much money on a piece of equipment right now since I've never had a car and that much money could buy a pretty damn good one. Forget just me, nobody else who's looking at this $700 player would take that analogy too seriously either.

I'm talking about the margin of cost that makes a product reasonable for a consumer, from the standpoint of a consumer. If he could sell it for $600, then what's the need to go straight to the highest price people could expect, but not want? What good does it do if so many people just don't buy it because of that fact. Just because that extra amount of money would not allow them to buy it. $700 isn't a horrible price for a player and it seems a heck of a lot more fair than $790.

Even windfury stated that he's floating the same boat.

However, for me, it's that margin that made the breaking point for me like it did. I already stated that I'm not buying it and that's mostly of the concern of the distributor.

I'm sorry if you can't see things my way, or don't like my opinion, but I don't feel like it's not within reason.

Either way, it's just that matter of a fact that no matter where you go with your next set of points, I'm not going to benefit from continually battling it out for no good reason. I'm not going to hold the player in my hand, so why use these fingers to fight about it senselessly.

My day's already at a low point, signing off....

 

[Zanth]

You have reading comprehension issues.

Your first paragraph belies your extreme bias. You reduce my response to me being a moderator and calling you out on your unwarranted personal attacks on a fellow member of this forum (without addressing that or apologizing) and then you go on to actually acknowledge that I was right you were wrong in the pricing argument (at least initially based on actual price data, then you again begin the rant about cost, you can't or won't swing it etc). Ironically you then claim you are still right, at least in unison with those who hold your narrow view point. Having an opinion is open to all. Stating an opinion has empirical data as a base is entirely different. You simply don't have that evidence and in a round about way admit it but continually state that it doesn't matter because you significantly feel that no matter what your feelings trump actuality.

Here's a tip. Don't tell a moderator to cool it when they have warned you about not attacking another member. It leads to permanent banning not just a 2 week vacation. You have now been warned a second time. Your foolishness is apparent to anyone who is reading this. You attacked someone and you were warned; you did not like being warned and then you tell the moderator who warned you to cool it. Now I warn you publicly again to clear your head, collect yourself and stop being so antagonistic or you will be banned from the site. I participate in maintaining a measurable level of decency on the forums, anyone who infringes on that success, which are of course against the rules, gets a warning and a ban. It helps deter from this form of activity in the future.

 

[BrahmaBull9813]

Quote:

Either way, it's just that matter of a fact that no matter where you go with your next set of points, I'm not going to benefit from continually battling it out for no good reason. I'm not going to hold the player in my hand, so why use these fingers to fight about it senselessly.

People who read the statements from either of us are educated enough to decide for themselves what's what.

I've dropped it already. Signing off....

 

[BrahmaBull9813]

This guy is ridiculous. Just when I expect the worst, I receive the best.

The Pre-Order Section III is offering it for $700 ($720 with shipping) until January, and then after this last section is done, it jumps to that price.

Remarkable, all this tension, and for what? Fang just straight up changed the ball game. I apologize, now, for my comments about him. It doesn't take another man to change one man's opinion. It takes the right man to take action and do such a thing.

Fang, much respect to you.

 

[BrahmaBull9813]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Snip

Hey, since you have a unit, could you throw up a review or something of the sort?

I saw a post you made earlier in this thread that says your's has not a single error for the paint job.

 

[electropop]

I'd so much want to comment on all this pointless rant without actual premises that it almost makes me boil.

But since everyone's happy now, I'll keep kool

 

[momomo6789]

i found these 8 pages a good read and laugh .

 

[Zanth]

I am currently writing an in depth review for the Head-fi Quarterly. If people are so inclined as to want a synopsis before the first issue is released, I am willing to write something up.

 

[electropop]

I don't have much reference, but I have to take back my words now that I've listened to this unit a few hours longer that it is even "musically" better than my iPod Classic 160gb. Only used my SRH840s with it so far and I'm surprised that using the line out to my Voyager doesn't shake things up one bit. Marginal differences, mainly in "smoothness"..
I could hear a new instrument on Frank Zappa's piece 'Revised Music for Guitar and Low Budget Orchestra' from the album 'Studio Tan' at the part where Chester whips out a groove and all of the orchestra plays the same patterns in unison. I could hear a guitar amongst the complex brass arrangement.. Notes were rather clear but not as clear as on my Linn stereo system. You still had to fish out some, but that might also be due to the Shures.
I'll have to compare it to some proper stand-alone DACs soon. At the latest when my HE5/EF5 combo arrives.

 

[foreverfi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by electropop /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't have much reference, but I have to take back my words now that I've listened to this unit a few hours longer that it is even "musically" better than my iPod Classic 160gb. Only used my SRH840s with it so far and I'm surprised that using the line out to my Voyager doesn't shake things up one bit. Marginal differences, mainly in "smoothness".. I could hear a new instrument on Frank Zappa's piece 'Revised Music for Guitar and Low Budget Orchestra' from the album 'Studio Tan' at the part where Chester whips out a groove and all of the orchestra plays the same patterns in unison. I could hear a guitar amongst the complex brass arrangement.. Notes were rather clear but not as clear as on my Linn stereo system. You still had to fish out some, but that might also be due to the Shures. I'll have to compare it to some proper stand-alone DACs soon. At the latest when my HE5/EF5 combo arrives.

There are 3 main standards for a decent DAP in term of sound quality. The resolution, dynamic,.Musicality.

Resolution is easy to achieve with the advantage chips. There are many DAPs can have a very good sound resolution with details sound now.

Dynamic need a good powerful amp to boost and control it, normally, Class A amp has powerful energy preserve( power reservoir) for peak, this is why the hi end audio usually applying class A amp.

Musicality tells the emotion representation of the composer and players, it is the " soul link bridge" between the listener and music. Musicality usually describe as inviting, involving, liveness, engaging, intimacy,or so, if the resolution and dynamic represent the appearance of the music, the musicality represents the sould of the music.

So, Please test HIFIMAM with above simple standards and share your comments on the sound quality of HIFIMAN 801. For we are really very curious on it for buying reference. thanks.