[immortalsoul]

Hi, nice charts, It would be nice if you can add Calyx M and Acoustic Research ar-m2, two wonderful sounding daps

 

[monsieurfromag3]

Hi, nice charts, It would be nice if you can add Calyx M and Acoustic Research ar-m2, two wonderful sounding daps

I think the charts only include DAPs that are officially on sale at the time of publication, especially in Japan.

 

[548184]

.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I can see how easy it is to take the term Tofu-Fi out of context and to relate it to Japanese products.

Tofu is actually a Chinese invention. Tofu is a term used for shoddy Chinese Construction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tofu-dreg_project

https://www.visiontimes.com/2020/10/06/made-in-china-tofu-buildings.html

Low quality standards leads to shoddy products. Japanese products are quite the opposite as they have some of the highest quality standards.

You can never have enough storage, especially if you are into HiRes. DAPs may likely not be scalable for more storage for future microSD cards. You are locked in.

It's generic Linux. Not all Linux builds are built the same. No realtime kernel. No CPU isolation. No IRQ Hardware priority. No App priority. It's simple, gerneric Linux to turn on and off the device, not an Audiophile Linux build for SQ.

Something like Euphony is an AudioPhile Linux build:

https://euphony-audio.com/euphony-stylus-operating-system/

I'm using something similar for my transportable.

I'm talking about a real Audiophile low latency realtime OS, not a generic Linux. I've been through many Linux builds already and nothing touches an Audiophile optimised build for SQ.

For the average consumer, they would not know the difference and I wouldn't expect them to know. It's used widely for Summit-Fi systems. I'm just trying to shed light that one can use an Audiophile build on their portable / transportable as well as it's not just limited to the Summit-Fi world. Summit-Fi sound in a transportable / portable not possible with a DAP.

Since switching to Toslink glass optical, Redbook sounds godly good and neutral. Chord DACs don't need HiRes to compensate. They are effortless. So for my Transportable needs, Redbook is more than fine if done right. For the Mojo₂, I'll go with USB for a smaller footprint with SBC, not for HiRes.

Sony is okay, but it's colored. If it was perfectly neutral, there would be no need to constantly change to sound signature via firmware. One needs what, 10-20 firmware updates over a lifetime to change the sound signature. Just too colored, no thanks.

The average consumer keeps pairing warm colored sources with a warm cable with warm IEMs. Then their impressions are "It sounds a little warm...".

Again, it's fine for convenience. My cable is more neutral than my Chord DAC. The Chord DAC is perfectly neutral with the Glass Toslink. No color. After that, it's fine if the IEM is warm. But warm on warm on warm is a No Go. For average consumers, it's fine. I'm just really OCD about audio gear.

I'm not into Sony House sound, I'm into faithfully producing what the artists intended not what Sony intended or some user specific firmware house sound.

2.5mm, 4.4mm, Amplifiers are just compensations and distortions for deficiencies. Not effortless like Chord DACs.

The truth is we don’t know what the (intended) ramifications of different firmware is. Meaning that on the surface it seems like Sony marketing. Meaning we put a (3rd party aftermarket) version of DMP-Z1 operating firmware into the 1Z/1A and the results were different than the included 1Z/1A Sony 3.02. So possibly Sony actually thwarted the 1A and made the 1Z king and only second to the DMP-Z1? The actual build of the 1A came alive after the rockbox destination tool and custom firmware “tweeked” what it was capable of doing. We feel it’s a way for Sony to add stratification to the line up, in terms of money asked for products? It obviously doesn’t allow for products to overlap quality, but it added quality distance between them. Still aftermarket firmware also helped the 1Z.......so I’m not sure? Though much of the time the MrWalkman firmware added slight battery drain.......which if you study the chart in the first post, Sony is best at. Normally it’s the “Midnight Plus after market firmware” which uses 25% more battery power, the rest are still OK, not using that much.

The rockbox destination tool may have opened the curtains to some style of indigenous sound preference? Literally every region having a different sound like what fast food companies do to their products in different countries?

https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SonyNWDestTool

Then all styles of software were 3rd party published by MrWalkman which was a way to take advantage of the expanded post process in the DAP player. To tell you the truth, he doesn’t tell how it’s done so we don’t know.

In the system (above) it’s not using custom firmware as the Sony DAP is simply sending digital files. What firmware “processing” goes on in the DAC/Amp. There has only been a few firmware updates. Maybe 5 at most since 2016. I am at (Sony Stock) 1.03. The TA software can’t be “customized” due to the installer being simply a provider of the link to download.

This is probably not the place for a talk on if DSD or 24bit playback is better or not. Myself as well as every modern day recording studio would be lost if not using it. If you say it’s only important in the recording phase........I beg to differ. I seem to hear the extra air on all hi-res files?

You can’t argue that 24bit and higher has increased in popularity over the last 4 years.

As far as tone goes, it’s true the Sony house sound is not for everyone. But fidelity is actually a fairly broad term. Let’s call it an even/complete and correct frequency response. This completeness can be both at a more treble centric place, or with more bass.

What is revolutionary in the TA, 1Z, 1A Sony sound, as well as the DMP-Z1 rendition.........has been the creation of room response. So it’s not something that is first tolerated. It sounds muddy. Later after a day or two the brain realizes that the sound is the result of what we hear in a room from the side of the speakers reflecting off the wall. That couple of dB....... becomes natural and complete, adding what’s missing from other headphone set-ups. If you think this room response idea is something I pulled out of no where, it is in fact a fully explained goal for the Sony engineering team.

Again it has never been proven if balanced adds any issue to the equation. This again is not the place, as really this is a list of DAPs....with 100% of these posts being off topic. I will say off hand that it’s hard to perceive any improvement from balanced in the DAPs due to there being two completely separate amps. The balanced amp is of a different character........for some headphones better, really most better. But there may be people who prefer the single ended out for their headphones?

I’m not sure about version Linux, can’t really comment on it.

 

[Nostoi]

I'm old school. I was here when FLAC was a unknown and we were arguing the pro and cons of FLAC vs. MP3. In order to play FLAC at that time, we had to hack and slash our DAPs to another operating system / firmware otherwise we were limited to AAC or MP3. So I'm use to having control of my of hardware and/or software and not limited like general consumers of gear.

IMO, there are no positive benefits of current DAPs besides AIO convenience.

Off the top of head, some negatives:

• Tofu-Fi DAPs breakdown routinely and need constant replacement. Plenty of horror stories here with $2K +- $1K DAPs.
• Android gets outdated and abandoned. It's also either a slim down version of Android or a compromised Android with suspect software.
• You risk software payloads entering your home/work system if you install apps or connect your hardware to the network
• Outdated screen which possibly emits RFI since it is so close to audio components
• Storage limited
• Single point of failure you need to return the whole unit. Not consumer repairable.
• Gimmicks like 4.4mm, 2.5mm etc. Amplification is a distortion.
• Don't even get me started with SQ.

There's plenty more, but since I'm not into DAPs that's off the top of my head. Mojo2 and Hugo2 works for my needs at this time, but my transport is scalable to Hugo3 once released. Chord DACs are also scalable as the source is almost as important as the DAC. Here are my thought process notes on Hugo2:



A great majority of Chord users don't know how to source their DACs as they are general consumers and not audio geeks thus different impressions.

With the trend of HQ USB DAC dongles and Small Battery Powered Computers, the technology is there to create your own DAP or your own Hybrid DAP.

I try to take a Model View Controller of things so there is clean separation for performance, maintenance, etc.:


For example, if I want to change the View to a new mini-LED iPhone screen I just need to install the app:



The controller and model are on the Small Battery Powered Computer which you can connect from a iPhone via Hotspot to perform exactly like a DAP with no lag.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ipeng/id767266886

The server portion can handle 8-10TB with ease if microSD tech evolves to 2TB, 4TB or 8TB in the near future. This server-side software is Summit-Fi approved as almost all Summit-Fiers are utilising this software. I use it for direct streaming abilities. This software is used on >$250,000 Summit-Fi gear.

This allows you the freedom to just use a Small Battery Powered Computer + possible small DAC and just put in your pocket. You wirelessly control via the iPhone. It should be a smaller footprint than a DAP since there is no screen.

For my COVID project, I wasn't focused on portability and wanted to max out on SQ while still maintaining trans-portability.

So I run a low latency realtime transport w/ the ability to clock-roll. Being able to run a real OS and not a toy OS like Android or iOS does wonders for audio performance.



The tight super fast quick bass that is only possible on a low latency realtime system is amazing. It's like having a transportable mix between Chord and dCS (clocks).

https://dcsaudio.com/clocking

I use glass optical.



I'm not using an el-cheapo battery like DAPs use. I'm using a good size juicy battery from the same battery manufacturer as Tesla. These are not normal batteries. These batteries allow Teslas quick accelaration and uphill climbing ability with dynamic power. So these batteries have low ESR (impedance) which allow quick fast dynamic power that is needed to extend for dynamic music. One of these small batteries is better than any LPS out there. I'm also running directly from the battery with solid core silver wiring. No battery holders or other bottlenecks.



If I don't want to use a smartphone, my other view is an IR Remote:



For the IR Remote, Up_Click = Next Track, Up_Hold = Main1 Playlist, Down_Click = Previous Track, Down_Hold = Main2 Playlist, A/V_Click = Play/Pause, A/V_Hold = Random playlist, Power = PWR. It's amazing to feel actual buttons instead of pressing a screen.

This is not meant for absolute portability, but the technology is there if one chooses that direction. If the Mojo2 is released, I will start a more portable project. If I had a USB DAC dongle which doesn't interest me either, I can build something super portable but I'm very picky on the USB connection.

I want to use an Uptone USPCB since USB cables are colored, but not sure how to make that work ATM:



So basically since everyone already has a smartphone for navigation, you can have a pocket-able robust low latency realtime operating system with your USB DAC Dongle or your favorite battery-powered DAC with a robust storage infrastructure. You just use the smartphone for wireless navigation. This saves on smartphone battery because the smartphone is only needed for navigation and you don't need to power a USB DAC via the smartphone.

It's easier to repair, maintain, upgrade and update software. You can even repurpose later as a DAP will just turn into a paper weight sooner than later. It also doesn't cost a ton so you are not paying for markup.

Once the COVID supply chain shortage is replenised, there will be plenty more options.

Just my opinion and to offer another point of view.

This takes nothing away from the original poster as they did a amazing job.

Painful.

 

[548184]

The truth is we don’t know what the (intended) ramifications of different firmware is. Meaning that on the surface it seems like Sony marketing. Meaning we put a (3rd party aftermarket) version of DMP-Z1 operating firmware into the 1Z/1A and the results were different than the included 1Z/1A Sony 3.02. So possibly Sony actually thwarted the 1A and made the 1Z king and only second to the DMP-Z1? The actual build of the 1A came alive after the rockbox destination tool and custom firmware “tweeked” what it was capable of doing. We feel it’s a way for Sony to add stratification to the line up, in terms of money asked for products? It obviously doesn’t allow for products to overlap quality, but it added quality distance between them. Still aftermarket firmware also helped the 1Z.......so I’m not sure? Though much of the time the MrWalkman firmware added slight battery drain.......which if you study the chart in the first post, Sony is best at. Normally it’s the “Midnight Plus after market firmware” which uses 25% more battery power, the rest are still OK, not using that much.

The rockbox destination tool may have opened the curtains to some style of indigenous sound preference? Literally every region having a different sound like what fast food companies do to their products in different countries?

https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SonyNWDestTool

Then all styles of software were 3rd party published by MrWalkman which was a way to take advantage of the expanded post process in the DAP player. To tell you the truth, he doesn’t tell how it’s done so we don’t know.

[Photo]

In the system (above) it’s not using custom firmware as the Sony DAP is simply sending digital files. What firmware “processing” goes on in the DAC/Amp. There has only been a few firmware updates. Maybe 5 at most since 2016. I am at (Sony Stock) 1.03. The TA software can’t be “customized” due to the installer being simply a provider of the link to download.

This is probably not the place for a talk on if DSD or 24bit playback is better or not. Myself as well as every modern day recording studio would be lost if not using it. If you say it’s only important in the recording phase........I beg to differ. I seem to hear the extra air on all hi-res files?

You can’t argue that 24bit and higher has increased in popularity over the last 4 years.

As far as tone goes, it’s true the Sony house sound is not for everyone. But fidelity is actually a fairly broad term. Let’s call it an even/complete and correct frequency response. This completeness can be both at a more treble centric place, or with more bass.

What is revolutionary in the TA, 1Z, 1A Sony sound, as well as the DMP-Z1 rendition.........has been the creation of room response. So it’s not something that is first tolerated. It sounds muddy. Later after a day or two the brain realizes that the sound is the result of what we hear in a room from the side of the speakers reflecting off the wall. That couple of dB....... becomes natural and complete, adding what’s missing from other headphone set-ups. If you think this room response idea is something I pulled out of no where, it is in fact a fully explained goal for the Sony engineering team.

Again it has never been proven if balanced adds any issue to the equation. This again is not the place, as really this is a list of DAPs....with 100% of these posts being off topic. I will say off hand that it’s hard to perceive any improvement from balanced in the DAPs due to there being two completely separate amps. The balanced amp is of a different character........for some headphones better, really most better. But there may be people who prefer the single ended out for their headphones?

I’m not sure about version Linux, can’t really comment on it.

First thank you for your contributions on this site. You have some amazing posts over the years. I'm glad you realised I wasn't taking a dig on the Japanese side. I would be comfortable introducing Japanese hardware software within my home / work network. I would not risk the other option at any cost, but most are not woke to the world around them.

I am completely ignorant of the DAP market, that's why this was a really helpful thread. Even though I am completely ignorant, I don't think I am too far off with the concerns of the current DAP market. There's a good sample size of comments on this site to justify my concerns.

I was always curious on clock / oscillator implementation on DAPs and that was my main reason for complementing the original poster before things went off the rail. If you take out the clocks in the DAPs, they will not have the same rhythm. That's why I like to mix clocks with Chord DACs. Adding clocks makes it something like a Chord / dCS hybrid for transportable use. Without the clocks, my Chord DACs would not have the same rhythm or PrAT.

https://dcsaudio.com/clocking

My goal was just to introduce the possibility of converging Summit-Fi technology into the portable space. With a low latency realtime OS on a Small Computer + USB Dongle or USB DAC, it would be quite special for portable use. Presently, users are going the iPhone + USB dongle route and I hope they have the opportunity to plug their USB dongle into a realtime OS as it should be quite amazing. I'm not ready for portable projects as I still need to work on my desktop source which uses a State of the Art Clock shown in the photo below:



In order to do realtime, you need hardware access permission which no manufacturer is going to grant you.

In my case, I overclock everything:

Boot Mode: Extreme
Realtime Kernel
Realtime Priority: Extreme
Realtime Apps: Extreme
Isolated Cores: 1st Core: System tasks. All other dedicated Cores just for Audio
RAM: 4GB to load the whole OS into RAM

Having the ability to dedicate CPU cores just for audio is amazing. DAPs would never allow this ability. Your restricted, even your Android is software restricted in the Play store.

For Linux, there are free Audiophile, general purpose use Linux and non-free Audiophile. I'm using a non-free Linux and it's worth every penny. It's not the $300 Euphony Linux, but close enough as I need it for a small ARM computer not an Intel PC.

I recommend checking out this site:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/forum/9-music-servers/

Euphony is a pretty popular thread.

For DAP, the floor is iPhone Dongle and the ceiling is convenience. You are not going to see iBasso, iRiver, A&K, L&P, Sony, etc. at the next level. They target convenience and that's their market. Users accept and are aware of this. If they want SQ, they go with a modern USB DAC.

For DACs, you will see Chord and other modern DACs here:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/forum/6-dac-digital-to-analog-conversion/

I agree, it's time to step away from this thread. We both presented our arguments.

Oh, BTW. Glass Toslink can do 24-192 Hires. I just choose not to because the military use clocks I want the best performance. So I would not buy 44.1 Mhz clock, I would buy 5 Mhz. The lowest common denominator for best performance. These are state of the are clocks that compete with $10,000 MSB audiophile clocks, not your average clocks. They need government / military approval to release to public. Sort of like how you would need "Secret Clearance" to work a government gig.

It's 2021, everyone knows it's all about Mastering not format. I run redbook CDs before sound processing was a thing (maybe had Sony at that time) and it's quite amazing. None of these amazing mastered redbooks would ever be on Hires. Surprisingly, Chord DACs are intelligent enough to distinguish pre-emphasis and de-emphasis redbooks.

I'm sure you are already aware, but here's link for mastering sources info:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/forums/music-corner.2/

Painful.

If I time traveled 2 years back and read this post, I would agree.

It's even more painful helping someone by writing a long post that was curious. I wanted to make sure I explained in full since they are new to this site and only thought this world was about portables.

I warned everyone it's not for average consumers, only audio geeks. I can see how it would be painful for a simpleton.

Time for me to exit left.

 

[Nostoi]

Time for me to exit left.

Thank you.

 

[efftee]

Yes, I understand. I want to get back into my portable roots after my COVID transportable project. I just wanted to see how far I can go SQ-wise with a transportable setup. It will be time to downsize soon in 2022/3 after the pandemic is over (cross fingers).

I didn't want to post, but I see the trend of users adjusting to USB Dongle DACS to connect directly to their smartphones that compete with higher priced DAPs. I don't think these users will ever go back to DAPs. It just might not be worth the marginal SQ differences and having the hassle to carry around two devices with screens (traditional DAP + Smartphone). I'm glad this trend is happening as users are no longer slaves to traditional DAPs and are more empowered with their smartphones. But it doesn't solve the problem of decoupling farther away from the screen or a noisy smartphone but it's headed in the right direction. I was hoping this would happen, but DAP users have horse blinders on to adjust (don't blame them tho as its such a niche market) so I'm happy they opened their minds and discovered this other world which motivates me to post now that I see hope.

For the next trend, I'm hoping the technology will get there to allow users to connect their USB Dongle DACs to a SBC (Small Board Computer). There's an explosion of SBCs for the retro handheld gaming market, so I'm hoping the technology will improve on that front. For me, the technology is already there but for the general consumer it may take some time. The hardware is getting there. The software is there for both server (all logic here and sound processing here, no silly upsampling) and for your smartphone (remote dummy client for navigation only). Just a matter of time before they converge.

Example, but this has a screen. Just trying to point out various battery-powered SBCs. As you can see, a USB port up top:



Small footprint:



I was thinking of making this my other view along with IR Remote and Smartphone. I was going to turn a battery powered gaming device to navigate the Music of my transportable remotely.



Since some of these SBCs have a PCIe slot now, I'm hoping for a tiny USB PCIe (better cleaner USB controllers) to attach to the SBC. In the Summit-Fi World, a USB PCIe card is attached to a powerful computer as it cleanly separates from the internals of the computer.



Wait for the Mojo₂. Because of the semiconductor supply chain shortage due to COVID, the Mojo₂ release may have been delayed to later in the year. It's not certain a Mojo₂ will be released, but the DAC designer mentioned multple products released this year before the shortage hit hard. Just read the DAC Designer not going to SoCal CanJam because of COVID restrictions entering the USA, so another delay. The likelihood of a new Chord product announced at SoCal CanJam was decent.

I don't believe in amplifiers as they are distortions. With Chord DACs, you listen directly out of the DAC via an Analogue Output Stage. There is no traditional amplifier as that adds coloring and distorts. An amplifier in the way also decreases resolution and transparency. With Chord DACs, you don't suffer any loss as you are listening directly out of the DAC with plenty of power. The Mojo₂ should be more powerful 2.

The Mojo₂ is also very pocketable. The SBC I want to pair with a Mojo₂ is not out yet due to semiconductor supply chain shortage. Battery-powered SBC + USB cable (Hoping Uptone USB PCB instead of a traditional cable) + Mojo₂ = pocketable / powerful and then navigate remotely with smartphone is the plan once I'm ready for portable again. A low latency realtime kernel combined with a Mojo₂ should be a pretty solid portable rig as long as the new Mojo is not warm.

I'll post back if something worthy is released on the SBC front. I don't plan to post until next summer as I just stopped by to post to say farewell to someone going on hiatus and to post my new IEM cable. Since I'm listening directly out of the DAC, I choose RCA outs (.025 Ohms) for complete 100% channel separation with zero cross-contamination that's possible in small plugs. The clock in the photo is for my desktop source project, so hoping to finish that before the Mojo₂ release.






Again, it's a transportable setup but I hope to join the portable ranks one day.

Haha, thanks for the info but this is way over my head, dude.

 

[Mcleenx]

Great work!!
Thanks for sharing!

 

[tashikoma]

Great work ! Thank you.

 

[romekbono]

Awesome work !!! Love it !!

Question about the :

Astell & Kern A&futura SE180​

You don't put in the Category High-End between the SE100 and SE200?

Especially with the SEM2 ( AK4497EQ Dual DAC) and the SEM3 (ESS ES9038Q2M Quad DAC) ??
SEM4 is also on the way.

 

[goodvibes]

Mmmm parts.

 

[romekbono]

Hi there,

This is the latest version of DAPs comparison charts which I created and updates continuously.
If you are looking for a new High-Res DAP, or wan't to compare specifications of latest models, this chart maybe help you.

• The models listed on this chart is based on Japanese (I'm Japanese and Global market, sorted by order of USD price.
• 4 pics are separated by price range and restrictions of layout by model numbers.
• If you noticed incorrect description, value or missing informations you know, please comment me.

1. Entry (ver.2021-06-18)​

   
   
   

2. Mid-range (ver.2021-07-14)​

   
   
   

3. Premium (ver.2021-06-18)​

   
   
   

4. High-end (ver.2021-07-03)​

   

I wrote blog article below (Sorry for only in Japanese) about the current trend of DAPs and why such DAPs were released.
More precision 10K version pics are available in this blog.

"ハイレゾDAP比較一覧 2021年6月版 〜AKM工場火災の影響が色濃い2021年上半期のDAP新機種動向"
"High-Resolution DAP Comparison List June 2021 Edition - New DAP model trends in the first half of 2021, deeply affected by the AKM factory fire"
https://align-centre.hatenablog.com/entry/2021/06/dap-comparison-2021-06

I hope you enjoy it.

Twitter: @align_centre

Hello friend, do you Know if you will update soon this incredible chart comparison ?

Thanks for such awesome job

 

[rlw6534]

Hello friend, do you Know if you will update soon this incredible chart comparison ?

Thanks for such awesome job

Newest version:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/z40y12lp4ecna91/AAArWDATVfpBaWuFeRb71hAOa?dl=0

 

[romekbono]

Newest version:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/z40y12lp4ecna91/AAArWDATVfpBaWuFeRb71hAOa?dl=0

Thanks