[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Kind of early in the thread to be chiming in since I probably represent an outlier in terms of my experience. I'll be interested in seeing what some of the other folks have to say (tyrion, Voltron, UncleErik, etc).

yup that is really early for you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif In any case, I was fortunate enough to have wisely chosen a law school that was sufficiently non-T14 (or anything that would resemble T14), such that I was able to teach accounting at that same university on a full time basis while attending law school full time, and still managed to finish in the top 10% of my class.

Top 10% + Tax make you pretty special, even at tier 2 or tier 3 with great local reputation, but still NOT tier4. If OP had possessed some special quality (tax-CPA, BS in EE/CE/bioE) the likelihood of his not being in a a total financial disaster has increased by many folds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif So to me, that was the buzz. Just reading, thinking, discussing, and enjoying the learning process without really being concerned about where it would all lead or what the payoff might be in the end. In a sense, this is exactly how law school was intended to be approached from the very beginning. It's only in recent times (probably the past 50-60 years) that the study of law or the practice of law has become more about the "business" of studying law or the "business" of practicing law.

well, if only those tier 4 private law schools were in the business to teach..sigh. Charging students 35k/yr for 3 yrs, not including board/books/etc, knowing that majority of the students will never practice law (say the bottom 90% at tier 4) is practically fraud. => this will not apply to OP if he were to go for free or almost free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anyway, that's all I know, I suppose. I've never practiced law (as such), so I couldn't tell you the first thing about that. But I do know that my legal background has been put to good use many times in my life. Mostly when I was in private banking, but also with resepct to many things I'm involved in now with a number of companies that I serve as a director for. In my view, it's something that you'll never regret, especially if you pursue your studies with the right perspective.

Majority of the law students don't have CPA or other valuable employable skills (engineering skills); having a JD will be an instant no go if you were to apply for a position that even a BA in history can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is so much to learn from the "process" of studying law, it's just unreal. To me, it was a strong enabling experience in the sense that once it was all done (graduation day), I felt that I could do anything that I set my mind to. Whether you'll ever remember anything or be able to put it to practical use is quite another matter, but don't be completely discouraged by all of the practical considerations (job market outlook and so on). Weigh those factors in your decision making, but think about what you really want to be happening in your life as well.

I am sure now you are more 'enabled' to take deductions, arguing for credits and just being a general bad-ass when you get audited - do you have the 2009 IRC and Reg tabbed for easy access?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Enjoy what you're doing as you're doing it. Give it your best at all times, then you won't have any regrets. The rest will all work itself out one way or another. You're not responsible for solving the world's economic problems, so why bring all that upon yourself? If you're good enough at what you do and work hard enough, you'll have plenty of opportunities when you graduate. If not, then go to Plan B and work equally hard on that. If not, then Plan C. Eventually, the rewards will come.

Now that's the money quote!

OK..OP...you may hate me now but you will thank me years later: please visit www.jdunderground.com and be sure to read http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/

I really didn't want drag all those law-related crap into this forum.... to save a person's life, however, is worth it

 

[Zarathustra19]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif P.P.S. Legal training is also useful for arguing with people on forums like Head-Fi.

That was secretly the whole reason I wanted to go to law school.

Chese, I certainly don't hate you for providing information. I like to think that I'm making an informed decision, and while nothing you've provided for me to read and nothing you've said will make me change my mind about going to school, I do appreciate your concern and your time used trying to inform me about how difficult my life after school will be. I know it and I'm accepting it.

Wmcmanus, Thanks for your reply. Though you may be an outlier, its good to hear that someone has had a positive experience. I really think that I'll enjoy the process of learning the law, as I am one of those individuals who walks around the library looking for something interesting to read. Even if I end up in an alternative field, the journey will be outstanding.

P.S. I should say that Widener has offered me a scholarship worth 30% of my tuition and fees.

 

[chesebert]

Ok...fine..as long as you are making an informed choice.

Here is what I would do if I were you: 1) study hard as hell and be sure to get into the top 1% of your class (3.9 and above); 2) apply for GULC (Georgetown University Law Center) before the end of your first semester so you can do the 2nd semester at GULC as a part time student. This will/may (need to check) allow you to participate in their On Campus Interview (OCI) the coming fall. 3) transfer from GULC part-time program to full time program ASAP once you get there

Alternatively you can 1) make the top 1% of your class by the end 1L, 2) apply to UPenn or law school in that range (you will be out of the running for Harvard/Yale/Standford no matter how well you do . . . they are reserved for T14 transfer

3) make sure the school to which you are transferring will allow you to participate in their fall OCI.

If you get even one B-/C in your 1L year you should promptly get out of law school ASAP

 

[Uncle Erik]

Yes, it's worth going. I think the best reason is what a classmate told me just after enrolling. He said, "I don't remember how I used to think before law school."

It's like boot camp - it tears down your old processes and rebuilds them. Or ruins you, as some might think.

But understanding how to go about tearing down a problem is a hugely useful skill.

Now, practically speaking, the market is awful. I don't know how it is around the rest of the country, but the west coast is a bloodbath. Hundreds laid off every day it seems. I'm OK, but a lot of others aren't. Also, the small firm/government jobs are going to disappear as big firm layoffs take those. So the market will be limited to the odd opening or being willing to start your own office.

One of the better ways to market yourself, however, is to add something else to your skill set. Most of the lawyers out there just have a liberal arts bachelor's and the JD. If you can add a hard science degree, medical, accounting, MBA, or another advanced degree, a bunch of specialized jobs open up. If you also picked up a degree in hospital administration for example, you'd be able to pick up a good, secure job.

That's why I went back to school after law school - I went in with a degree in English. Getting out and working for a small firm that gave me all the cases the partners didn't want. Good experience, for sure, but not something I was going to do forever. So I found a local school and went back for another degree in accounting. I'm not exactly using it right now (am doing corporate litigation) but it helped getting the job and it has been hugely helpful in running the family business. That wasn't expected, either. My grandfather died, so my father and I had to take it over. Having free accounting sure made it easier. And once things slow down, I still need to get through the CPA exam. I'll have to hit up Wayne on one of the review courses.

But if you really want to go, you should. It's one of the best things you can do for your head. You'll meet a lot of bright people, make close friends and it's a good place to meet a wife, if you're looking for that. Just be aware of the job market and be willing to find a side field you can work into it.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, it's worth going. I think the best reason is what a classmate told me just after enrolling. He said, "I don't remember how I used to think before law school." It's like boot camp - it tears down your old processes and rebuilds them. Or ruins you, as some might think. But understanding how to go about tearing down a problem is a hugely useful skill.

in everyday term - you learn to spot the issues.

Is issue spotting skill worth 100k? It depends

 

[Usagi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif well, if only those tier 4 private law schools were in the business to teach..sigh. Charging students 35k/yr for 3 yrs, not including board/books/etc, knowing that majority of the students will never practice law (say the bottom 90% at tier 4) is practically fraud. => this will not apply to OP if he were to go for free or almost free.

The Great College Hoax
The Great College Hoax - Forbes.com
TaxProf Blog: Is the Law Professor Gravy Train Over?

This article expounds upon your statement. I don't know why they addressed minority statistics when it has nothing to do with race, but it get's the idea across.

 

[chesebert]

You gotta watch this.

Too funny

This is brilliant

Is this what you want?

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zarathustra19 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wmcmanus, Thanks for your reply. Though you may be an outlier, its good to hear that someone has had a positive experience. I really think that I'll enjoy the process of learning the law...

Oh, don't get me wrong. There were days (actually parts of nearly every day while I was in law school) when I wanted to kill nearly every living soul that I encountered who put me off in even the slightest way. I didn't sleep much for years, and for many years afterwards due to the conditioning effect that it had on my mind and body.

But I wasn't just going to school, so that made my life a lot rougher, especially since I didn't like cutting corners. So I almost always did the work, I just didn't sleep some nights at all. That, and a lot of what you're asked to study is rather dull, dry and pointless.

I'd say it was worth it in the the beginning and in the end but not necessarily in the middle, and there was a lot of middle.

 

[Erik_C]

Hi. I'm a lawyer, and I would suggest that unless you get into a top-20 or -25 law school, you should take a year or two off between college and law school. Work. Get some life experience. Then re-apply to the good schools.

There are A LOT of unemployed lawyers out there, many of whom have degrees from top tier schools. Why would anyone hire a newly minted lawyer from a lesser school when that employer could get an experienced lawyer from a much better school? At least if you go to a good school you'll have that in your arsenal, which can help open doors.

Not the advice you wanted, huh? Welcome to lawyering. At least I don't have to worry about you not paying my bill because you didn't like the advice!

 

[AlanY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik_C /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi. I'm a lawyer, and I would suggest that unless you get into a top-20 or -25 law school, you should take a year or two off between college and law school. Work. Get some life experience. Then re-apply to the good schools.

This is the advice you should be getting. Keep in mind that the only contrary advice you're getting in this thread is from a person who made his money in investment banking/finance, lives in the Caymans, funded his law school tuition by being a professor, and is not a practicing lawyer.

I'm graduating from law school in two months and have a job with a good firm in my area of interest, intellectual property, but that was in large part luck and I have no illusions about whether this position is secure going forward. To put the oversupply of lawyers in perspective, even in the specialized field of IP, firms can afford to hire from people with both a law degree and at least a Master's in a technical field. If your background is in the biological or chemical sciences, you need a Ph.D. to get noticed, because there are so many biochem, etc. Ph.D.s who go to law school rather than getting on the postdoc treadmill. (I have a Master's in engineering.) There are a lot of really good students this year who are still struggling to find jobs.

Going to a lower tier school doesn't make a lot of sense to me, unless your intent is to practice family law in a rural community somewhere.

Also, in my opinion the claim that law school teaches you how to think is mostly bunk. This might be true for someone whose educational background does not involve an exposure to systematic thinking, but apart from the gems, most "legal reasoning" is not particularly logical or complex. Often it's completely illogical. You'd do better with an undergraduate course in logic or classical (not linear) algebra than a law degree. Concepts like Bayesian reasoning haven't even made it through the door of legal academia, let alone the courts themselves. The whole field of tort law and several other subfields in my opinion are based on a set of false premises.

That said, I enjoyed law school, but I am also realistic about the nature of the profession. Even litigation is nothing like TV. Litigation in real life is years of procedural motions. In criminal law, almost every one of your clients is guilty. As an associate you can expect to work 7am-7pm at least. (If I had to chart my whole career again, in hindsight, I probably should have chosen med school instead, but that's life. You don't get do-overs.)

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik_C /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi. I'm a lawyer, and I would suggest that unless you get into a top-20 or -25 law school, you should take a year or two off between college and law school. Work. Get some life experience. Then re-apply to the good schools.

Even T20-25 is too optimistic if OP only has a BA or BS in science - it's T14 or bust, really.

 

[skitlets]

How's the job market in California (Bay Area) for positions that aren't in the competitive firms / high pay. I don't think I can sanely meet the demands of 12 hour work days so I was thinking of getting into Hastings Law School and working for the government or for private non-firm companies. For example, my brother-in-law just got hired on at Adobe.

 

[Suntory_Times]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not trying to discourage OP from going to law school in and of itself. If OP were to say he got into Yale/Harvard/Stanford, I would congratulate him wholeheartedly knowing that he will be practically guaranteed a job after he graduates; although the current economy does put a little damper on that statement.

Well yes, but even if he doesn't get a job immediatly because of the current economic situation, it will get better and when it does he will be considered skilled labour.

 

[AlanY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suntory_Times /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well yes, but even if he doesn't get a job immediatly because of the current economic situation, it will get better and when it does he will be considered skilled labour.

The point is, graduates from the lower tier schools weren't getting quality positions when the economy was good. There is a good likelihood the economy will improve in three years, but this fact probably won't. There is a huge oversupply of law grads in this country even in good years. It is a much better career strategy to take a year off, improve one's LSAT scores, and get into a good school. Otherwise it's not a good investment and in a sense you're cheating yourself.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is the advice you should be getting. Keep in mind that the only contrary advice you're getting in this thread is from a person who made his money in investment banking/finance, lives in the Caymans, funded his law school tuition by being a professor, and is not a practicing lawyer.

Not that I meant to be a contrarian to begin with. Bottom line, I enjoyed the process and have no regrets for having spent 3 years of my life in law school (4 years really, counting the LLM), but I never looked at it even for one minute from a "pay off" perspective. Never once considered practicing law for a career. Obviously, that's not a realistic attitude in today's market, which I've readily admitted to being hopelessly out of touch with.

Quote:

I'm graduating from law school in two months and have a job with a good firm in my area of interest, intellectual property, but that was in large part luck and I have no illusions about whether this position is secure going forward. To put the oversupply of lawyers in perspective, even in the specialized field of IP, firms can afford to hire from people with both a law degree and at least a Master's in a technical field. If your background is in the biological or chemical sciences, you need a Ph.D. to get noticed, because there are so many biochem, etc. Ph.D.s who go to law school rather than getting on the postdoc treadmill. (I have a Master's in engineering.) There are a lot of really good students this year who are still struggling to find jobs.

Scary stuff. We all knew in the late 80s that there were already far too many lawyers, and yet the US law schools keep cranking them out, so it's no big surprise really.

Quote:

That said, I enjoyed law school, but I am also realistic about the nature of the profession. Even litigation is nothing like TV. Litigation in real life is years of procedural motions. In criminal law, almost every one of your clients is guilty. As an associate you can expect to work 7am-7pm at least. (If I had to chart my whole career again, in hindsight, I probably should have chosen med school instead, but that's life. You don't get do-overs.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Even T20-25 is too optimistic if OP only has a BA or BS in science - it's T14 or bust, really.

These are the opinions that should be weighted most heavily because they're the guys who are facing the job market now and obviously have a keen interest and awareness of what is happening out there.

In fact, this is precisely what I meant in my first post in this thread when I mentioned that I'm an "outlier" and expressed a concern about possibly jumping into the thread a bit too soon (i.e., before those who are currently in the mix of it all had their chance to offer more realistic advice).