[greggf]

gordie,

The Gil Evans Prestige SACD that I was referencing sounds great - the back cover says, "---for the first time we hear the full spectrum of these masterpieces from the original stereo tapes that had been presumed lost for decades." I imagine the CD that you have was therefore from some copy tape and indeed sounds bad.

Again, I hear no HD800 sibilance, just a tipped up treble. And on this Evans recording, it makes high register piano sound like shattering glass, but not in such a way that the headphones are defective; that's just the way they sound IMO. The other headphones don't do this.

For some interesting and insightful comments on the HD800 in general, it should be noted that there are some good ones on the HD800-Sony R10 thread in the high-end forum.

(As for Evans considering suing The Doors, see the Larry Hicock bio of Evans, CASTLES IN THE SAND. Fascinating stuff.)

 

[Skylab]

I agree with Greggf - it is an elevated treble that is the "issue" I hear. It can have a variety of symptoms.

 

[k3oxkjo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald North /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here is an interesting and informative article from Stereophile on this subject: Stereophile: Between the Ears: the art and science of measuring headphones

Very interesting. I encourage everyone to read the article yourself, but to capsulize, Keith Howard (the author) did some reserch, measuring and listening. His reserch indicated that a headphone should not measure flat:

"If we are using headphones in place of speakers, then it might seem logical that the headphone's frequency response should imitate that of a sound source at head level, 30° off the median plane— ie, where the loudspeaker would be in a conventional stereo setup. In headphone parlance, this is termed the free-field or FF response assumption."

And showed what this response is generally considered to be.

But then comes a possible curve ball:

"Self-evident as the correctness of the FF-response assumption may seem, it came under concerted attack in the 1980s, principally through the work of Günther Theile at the Institut für Rundfunktechnik (IRT) in Germany (footnote 4). Using a Gestalt model of auditory perception, Theile argued that a free-field headphone frequency response would be appropriate only if the stereo image were perceived to be forward of the listener, as it is when reproduced over loudspeakers. As everyone who has used headphones knows, this is not the case—the image is generally perceived to be either inside or close around the head. Because of this, Theile claimed, a headphone with a free-field frequency response is perceived as spectrally colored."

Oops... this FF curve is different! So what's the bottom line?

"If you suppose that, as a result of Theile's work, there is now a headphone-industry consensus that the DF response assumption is the correct one, prepare yourself for disappointment. Headphones continue to espouse widely differing response philosophies: some close to FF, some close to DF, and others nearer to flat. Which is "right" remains a bone of contention"

Open ended is more like it. But to cut to the chase, Mr. Howard measured 4 phones, corrected them for both FF and DF curves, then auditioned them with an eye (ear?) to trying to confirm one or the other technique. His determination:

"I am beginning to suspect that a response somewhere between DF and flat is actually optimal. But these are early days; as other headphones pass through my lab, it will become clearer whether this is indeed the case."

What is interesting is that if you look at the HD-800 response as shown on the Headwise site, it follows pretty closely the DF curve in shape. Right down to the bottom of the first dip above 1 Khz being slightly below 3Khz, the peak at about 6.5Khz with a dip back down at 8Khz. The 800 is actually subdued above 10khz, where it deviates from the DF curve some.

The shape is the similar, but the depth of the peaks and dips tends to be less (or closer to flat) than the DF standard. It almost seems like Sennheiser used the DF curve, and listened to Mr. Howard's advice to not apply the curve as drastically, to make it closer to flat!

None of this strikes me as anywhere close to definitive, but it gives an idea as to what Sennheiser's strategy might have been.

I'm just sayin'...

and that there were two posssible choices

 

[pompon]

With foobar, when I drop the 7k slider down, it's less agressive. The highs with 60 hrs burn-in still edgy and metallic.

2 differents tube amp, 1 soundcard don't change anything. If that aspect can't be corrected with burn-in or tube rolling ... I will have to look elsewhere or keep using my HD650 equinox recabled.

I really like the 3d soundstage and the details and the good recording ... but the highs are often annoying on my setup.

I will keep them burning a good 200hrs to see what happend.
The burn-in so far have softed a tad the highs and warmed up a bit the midrange.

 

[AC1]

Simbilance is always an overall system issue to me. Some headphones can accelerate (or hide) the problem more than others, but if the source doesn't have simbilance the chances of it coming out are much slimmer.

To me the HD800's are very tunable. With just tube rolling (different classes of tubes make the biggest difference) I can make the HD800's bright with a senstive top end edge, or I can make them dark and syrupy.

Now once you hit a certain level of brightness in your system, the HD800's do start to become more reactive to it and can have a pretty sharp bitting top end. That is what makes them kind of interesting to tune because they are sort of mellow up to a point but once you reach a threshhold, they kind of fall off a cliff and become top end sensitive.

 

[john53]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif john53, thanks for the carefully thought out review. Your advice, BTW, is sound. (Pun intended.)

Thanks feifan.
I just did not understand your last words(Your advice, BTW, is sound. (Pun intended.))what do you mean with that phrase?(sorry my english is not that good

)

 

[johnwmclean]

k3oxkjo, that was an excellent post. Really worth reading.

 

[Hopstretch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnwmclean /img/forum/go_quote.gif You seem to know a lot about Sennheiser quality control. How do you know?

I know plenty about how ******** and wishful thinking propagate across this forum. There is as yet absolutely no evidence of major individual or batch variations between HD800s, but mention it a few more times and suddenly it will be received wisdom.

Once Senn get off their asses and send the measured response curves to owners as promised -- then we can actually discuss the possibility in a meaningful way.

 

[johnwmclean]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopstretch /img/forum/go_quote.gif I know plenty about how ******** and wishful thinking propagate across this forum. There is as yet absolutely no evidence of major individual or batch variations between HD800s, but mention it a few more times and suddenly it will be received wisdom.

That settles that then, so nothing about quality control. Thanks.

Edit: I agree we need the response curves asap.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Couldn't it be a spike at 5 kHz or 7 kHz instead or a plateau above 4 kHz? The Stereoplay graphs look notoriously different from HeadRoom's. It's not just a matter of product variation. But again: The high-frequency response can't be taken seriously anyway..

In both graphs there's a spike that peaks between 6k and 7k. I dropped the 6.3k slider a couple of db and the sibilance on recordings that had it were no longer irritating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopstretch /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is as yet absolutely no evidence of major individual or batch variations between HD800s, but mention it a few more times and suddenly it will be received wisdom. Once Senn get off their asses and send the measured response curves to owners as promised -- then we can actually discuss the possibility in a meaningful way.

I agree. HeadRoom didn't reply to my email, so I might call them, once I can work the time zones etc. and see if I can't also persuade them to measure a pair with a considerably different serial number (mine are in the 500s). I'd like to know conclusively what's going on.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif In both graphs there's a spike that peaks between 6k and 7k.

Not exactly. One has a spike at 6.2 kHz, the other one two humps at 5 and 7.5 kHz and a relative dip at 6.2 kHz.


Quote:

I dropped the 6.3k slider a couple of db and the sibilance on recordings that had it were no longer irritating.

An equalizer's 6.3 kHz frequency band will most likely affect 5 and 7.5 kHz as well (unless the filter is extremely sharp). The range between 5 and 7 kHz is responsible for most sibilance effects, so it's no surprise that the attenuation of this range reduces sibilance – be it from the recording or the headphone.
.

 

[k3oxkjo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif In both graphs there's a spike that peaks between 6k and 7k. I dropped the 6.3k slider a couple of db and the sibilance on recordings that had it were no longer irritating. I agree. HeadRoom didn't reply to my email, so I might call them, once I can work the time zones etc. and see if I can't also persuade them to measure a pair with a considerably different serial number (mine are in the 500s). I'd like to know conclusively what's going on.

You know, I love this technical stuff (possibly to the point of other peoples boredom

) and I used to measure stuff for a living (in the CBS Television Network engineering lab) but I am starting to think publishing these curves is a very mixed blessing.

What comes out at the end is that measuring a phone is not at all trivial and interpreting the measurements fraught with problems. In fact, there is not much in terms of agreement even amoung the researchers as to how a phone SHOULD measure. For example, the cursed 6.5 Khz peak that people love to point out is actually a FEATURE of one of the generally accepted EQ curves (far field)! Not to say that it's really "correct"...

Maybe it would be better to (horrors) ignore the curves and just listen. A consensus is, and will continue, to come out with time that I personally think will be more useful.

I have measured quite a few Audio/Video devices and feel that measurements are VERY useful to designers who use them to investigate specific phenomena, but have to be very carefully considered (and even then with some skepticism) by consumers trying to infer something about overall performance.

Concerning the treble in the HD-800; so far, the consensus seems to be that many people don't hear much wrong, a significant number feel they may be a bit on the bright side and a few think the treble biting and unsatisfactory. Fair enough, I think we can conclude for now that the HD-800 treble may be a bit on the bright side (compaired to other phones, perhaps not in an absolute sense) and should be auditioned carefully by anyone sensitive to any excess here.

 

[crucial]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pompon /img/forum/go_quote.gif With foobar, when I drop the 7k slider down, it's less agressive.

I did something similar. I use JR River software and and played with the equalizer for a while and I settled on a slight decrease (-1.5 db at 6k and -0.8 at 12K). They also have a virtual subwoofer option with choices of 6, 8, 10, 12, & 15 inch subwoofer. I preferred the 8 inch option. The combination of a modest bass increase and treble decrease make the HD800 significantly more palatable to my ears.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by k3oxkjo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Concerning the treble in the HD-800; so far, the consensus seems to be that many people don't hear much wrong, a significant number feel they may be a bit on the bright side and a few think the treble biting and unsatisfactory. Fair enough, I think we can conclude for now that the HD-800 treble may be a bit on the bright side (compaired to other phones, perhaps not in an absolute sense) and should be auditioned carefully by anyone sensitive to any excess here.

THAT may be the best summation I have heard yet of the emerging picture of the HD800.

BTW, I would classify my own feelings as being in your middle group, feeling "they may be a bit on the bright side" - I do not find the treble so elevated that they are "unsatisfactory", but certainly such that careful system matching will be needed.

The HD800 have even a little more mid-treble energy than the Beyer DT880, if that helps some people to get an idea of the scope.

 

[wnmnkh]

I'd say HD800's treble is between DT880/K701 and SA5000. Thanks god SA5000 are unlistenable due to too much treble.


P.S : But here is one thing you guys want to consider : the HD800 do not have strong impact as some other phones. For me the sound is completely effortless and very warm, even for that strong treble.

DT880 and Grados may have less treble energy than HD800, but I just cannot listen to them for a long time because the treble is dry and it pierces my ears with great impact, while I can listen to HD800 for all day long.