[MrSpenkelink]

Quote:

Quote:

I auditioned the W5000 briefly without the HA5000 amp.  I had the option of taking the W5000 with me home for an audition for a couple of months if necessary...this was not necessary, as it didn't gel with me at all.  IMO opinion the HD800 is a much superior headphone - and is arguably the best dynamic headphone out there.  I too felt that's its treble was slightly brighter than ideal, but this suited certain genres.

 
MrS., It's hard to explain but the brightness between the HD800 and W5000 are different. If you are running tubes I would heartily recommended the HD800 overall, but for Jazz and classical the W5000 can be magic out of the HA5000 at least.
 
I would say that the bass is more extended with better texture out of the HD800 but the the W5000 has a warmer sound.. Treble is quite extended on both headphones so instrument separation is great but the upper mids are a tad more emphasized on the W5000.
 
The W5000 somewhat surprisingly sounds very nice with brass instruments though. Not that the HD800 is bad in this area but they can sound a bit clinical. Miles Davis' catalog in particular is unmatched IMO out of the W5000/RA5000 combination.
 
I would say that the HD800 is a much more versatile headphone than the W5000 even out of the RA5000, but for some reason most jazz and classical sound perfect out of the W5000 while everything else is a crapshoot.
 
And since we're supposed to be comparing to the HD650 as well, I would say that it will sound rolled off at both ends of the frequency spectrum compared to the W5000/HD800, with a lower-midrange emphasis as well. So in comparison the HD650 would be warmer and more veiled than either of these headphones.

I bought the W5000 specifically for jazz listening and yes, I think it's very well suited to this musical genre.

 

[ardilla]

Quote:

i too, know that i would prefer the 650 over the 800. i prefer the warm bassy sound.

I've been attending jazz and classical concerts more than weekly for the last months. When I come home afterwards and listen to my HD650, they are not "warm and bassy", live music is often "warmer and bassier". So again - HD650 is really closer to live music than most other heaphones. They sound natural.  IMO of course. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy other "sounds" sometimes - but 650 is really the closest to the real stuff. The treble "roll off" and veil people are talking about is more compared other  headphones than to the live performances. Also - aftermarket cables are readly available. Headrooms FQ graphs are really illustrating the point that most high end headphones has got some really remarkable treble peaks. Treble gives the feeling of extreme detail. Can be very nice if done well - but not neutral..  
 
Anyway - read skylab's review on T1 - comparing it to HD800 - before you get the 800. BTW, for those of you who already don't know - skylab has got a wide variety of very expensive tube amps and a wide variety of expensive tubes to roll.. (this is referring to SPWilds probably very good point that HD800 need some expensive tubes to really shine) 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/products/beyerdynamic-tesla-t1/reviews#3910
 

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

Quote:

i too, know that i would prefer the 650 over the 800. i prefer the warm bassy sound.

I've been attending jazz and classical concerts more than weekly for the last months. When I come home afterwards and listen to my HD650, they are not "warm and bassy", live music is often "warmer and bassier". So again - HD650 is really closer to live music than most other heaphones. They sound natural.  IMO of course. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy other "sounds" sometimes - but 650 is really the closest to the real stuff. The treble "roll off" and veil people are talking about is more compared other  headphones than to the live performances. Also - aftermarket cables are readly available. Headrooms FQ graphs are really illustrating the point that most high end headphones has got some really remarkable treble peaks. Treble gives the feeling of extreme detail. Can be very nice if done well - but not neutral..  
 
Anyway - read skylab's review on T1 - comparing it to HD800 - before you get the 800. BTW, for those of you who already don't know - skylab has got a wide variety of very expensive tube amps and a wide variety of expensive tubes to roll.. (this is referring to SPWilds probably very good point that HD800 need some expensive tubes to really shine) 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/products/beyerdynamic-tesla-t1/reviews#3910
 

Ardilla, I think we come from the exact same perspective.  I generally don't make any recommendations unless I get a general feel for what a member might prefer, I think you ought to find a means of auditioning the LCD2.  They make the HD650 sound "lean and light" in direct comparisons and then you'll also have to agree that the HD650s are indeed veiled.  But I must admit, with a newly acquired R2R PCM1704 dac that I have...I have fallen in love with the HD650s again...and prefer them over the T50s now.

 

[pp312]

I totally agree with ardilla's thoughts on the 650. Indeed I've been saying the same thing--that the 650 is only veiled in comparison to other phones, not to live music--for some time in many different threads, usually with little response. The truth is, I suspect, that many posters here are less interested in how true to live music a phone is than how exciting it is.
As for the LCD2, I've been reading about this with increasing interest, but my interest faded somewhat when I closely studied the construction quality. Frankly, I can't see how this headphone can withstand even minor knocks. It just doesn't look a long term prospect to me, and since I'm in Australia I can't really afford to order a product that may fail after a few months, since return for repair/replacement isn't an option. Shame, as everything I've read has been highly positive.    

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

I totally agree with ardilla's thoughts on the 650. Indeed I've been saying the same thing--that the 650 is only veiled in comparison to other phones, not to live music--for some time in many different threads, usually with little response. The truth is, I suspect, that many posters here are less interested in how true to live music a phone is than how exciting it is.
As for the LCD2, I've been reading about this with increasing interest, but my interest faded somewhat when I closely studied the construction quality. Frankly, I can't see how this headphone can withstand even minor knocks. It just doesn't look a long term prospect to me, and since I'm in Australia I can't really afford to order a product that may fail after a few months, since return for repair/replacement isn't an option. Shame, as everything I've read has been highly positive.    

Its unfortunate that your priorities do not enable you to support a new and upstart company that is trying to bring to market a product that is engineered on the foundations of your principles.  I felt obliged to give these battlers a fair go, and fortunately - the sound matched my ideals.  The product does not share the same mass produced feel of a corporate production line...but that sound - If I had to send these headphones back for servicing once a year...like with cars...I would be more than happy, that sound is worth it and fortunately that has not been the case.  I rarely ever use the HD650s - but the price I paid in Australia was closer to the price I paid for the LCD2s, and I would take a massive loss to sell them.  So I keep them, and they still sound very nice.

 

[MrSpenkelink]

Quote:

Quote:

i too, know that i would prefer the 650 over the 800. i prefer the warm bassy sound.

I've been attending jazz and classical concerts more than weekly for the last months. When I come home afterwards and listen to my HD650, they are not "warm and bassy", live music is often "warmer and bassier". So again - HD650 is really closer to live music than most other heaphones. They sound natural.  IMO of course. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy other "sounds" sometimes - but 650 is really the closest to the real stuff. The treble "roll off" and veil people are talking about is more compared other  headphones than to the live performances. Also - aftermarket cables are readly available. Headrooms FQ graphs are really illustrating the point that most high end headphones has got some really remarkable treble peaks. Treble gives the feeling of extreme detail. Can be very nice if done well - but not neutral..  
 
 

 
Agreed - I have found that the treble presence in headphones is heightened compared to live jazz performance and other acoustic musical performance.    

 

[ardilla]

Quote:

Ardilla, I think we come from the exact same perspective.  I generally don't make any recommendations unless I get a general feel for what a member might prefer, I think you ought to find a means of auditioning the LCD2.  They make the HD650 sound "lean and light" in direct comparisons and then you'll also have to agree that the HD650s are indeed veiled.  But I must admit, with a newly acquired R2R PCM1704 dac that I have...I have fallen in love with the HD650s again...and prefer them over the T50s now.

Hi SPWild!
 
1) What happend to your Muse 4xTDAI NOS DAC? I actually bought it - sounds quite good - but haven't gotten along to setting it up permanently - but I will.
 
2) Which R2R Dac are you enjoying - and why?
 
3) With regards to the LCD - in think you're absolutely right about me probably liking it. Its on my list - but I have an issue with leather pads - prefer velour/cloth... Besides - I feel quite covered up now with the T1 and HD650. Thinking about getting a WA2..

 

[Bilavideo]

For the money - and I'm factoring in the used market - you can't get a better value than the HD650.  Having owned both it and the HD800, I'd have no difficulty pronouncing the HD800 a "better" headphone but for $1,400 - compared to the $250 I spent on the HD650 - it should be.  When you look at what it costs to make an HD650 sing, there's no reason to knock it.  Yes, there are better headphones but an HD650, with silver cabling and a decent amp, is hardly fried bologna and Kool-Aid.  If it is, then cook me up a batch and don't forget the ice.

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

Quote:

Ardilla, I think we come from the exact same perspective.  I generally don't make any recommendations unless I get a general feel for what a member might prefer, I think you ought to find a means of auditioning the LCD2.  They make the HD650 sound "lean and light" in direct comparisons and then you'll also have to agree that the HD650s are indeed veiled.  But I must admit, with a newly acquired R2R PCM1704 dac that I have...I have fallen in love with the HD650s again...and prefer them over the T50s now.

Hi SPWild!
 
1) What happend to your Muse 4xTDAI NOS DAC? I actually bought it - sounds quite good - but haven't gotten along to setting it up permanently - but I will.
 
2) Which R2R Dac are you enjoying - and why?
 
3) With regards to the LCD - in think you're absolutely right about me probably liking it. Its on my list - but I have an issue with leather pads - prefer velour/cloth... Besides - I feel quite covered up now with the T1 and HD650. Thinking about getting a WA2..

Hi Ardilla!
 
When I got that DAC...I loaned it out after a week along with my LCD2s and have only recently got them both back.  This is because after the experience with the Mini DAC...I bought a Reference 7 and I wanted everything back for a comprehensive assesment.  The reference 7 is an incredible DAC...makes the Bryston BDA-1 sound so pathetic, definitely something to do with R2R architecture.  I never had the opportunity to asses the Muse with the LCD2 until last week.
 
You'd be surprised with the Muse...I can guarantee you that if you are coming from live music...I have yet to hear a delta sigma that can beat it.  Yes the reference 7 is better, but I'd be quite happy to only have the Muse, they are tonally the same, but the R7 just has a little more refinement, smoothness, ambience and staging.  I have yet to hear any DAC that has matched the Muse in raw transient speed, mechanical correctness, and ruthlessness with exposing bad recordings - evident with the LCD2.  I will sell the Bryston, but this would happen regardless of if I bought the Reference 7, because of the Muse.  There are some Eric Clapton tracks I just heard with muse just now...that the Muse does better than anything I have ever heard.  It trades off ambience and detail retrieval of the R7 for a more mechanically precise representation of music recorded in intimate, non ambient environments.  That reference 7 is unbelievable with its general purpose technical proficiency - it is a steal for its price.  But that Muse is in a different dimension when it comes to value for money.
 

 
Lunatique wears his LCD2 with a sanitary cover over the ear pads...check out his review thread.

 

[GeorgeGoodman]

Quote:

Quote:

i too, know that i would prefer the 650 over the 800. i prefer the warm bassy sound.

I've been attending jazz and classical concerts more than weekly for the last months. When I come home afterwards and listen to my HD650, they are not "warm and bassy", live music is often "warmer and bassier". So again - HD650 is really closer to live music than most other heaphones. They sound natural.  IMO of course. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy other "sounds" sometimes - but 650 is really the closest to the real stuff. The treble "roll off" and veil people are talking about is more compared other  headphones than to the live performances. Also - aftermarket cables are readly available. Headrooms FQ graphs are really illustrating the point that most high end headphones has got some really remarkable treble peaks. Treble gives the feeling of extreme detail. Can be very nice if done well - but not neutral..  
 
Anyway - read skylab's review on T1 - comparing it to HD800 - before you get the 800. BTW, for those of you who already don't know - skylab has got a wide variety of very expensive tube amps and a wide variety of expensive tubes to roll.. (this is referring to SPWilds probably very good point that HD800 need some expensive tubes to really shine) 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/products/beyerdynamic-tesla-t1/reviews#3910
 

I really did not feel that the HD650 was "veiled" "warm" or "bassy," it just sounded natural. I actually thought it didn't have nearly enough bass, but it was probably the amp. The soundstage can go right around your head, and they are extremely comfortable. I would look into the LCD-2, but if you get the HD650 for $250, that is a quarter of the price. I would try it out first and see how you like it, then maybe upgrade the cable to a TWag balanced cable. There is a review I read by Warp08 who compared the stock HD650 with a TWag balanced cable and he said it got close to the HD800. He said he found the stock phones boring, but with the upgraded cable, things really came to life without losing any of the good qualities of the phone. I can definitely vouch for a soundstage that seems to go right around your head, which is different from the HD800s slightly in front of you, almost distant soundstage. I think I preferred the Hd650's soundstage,
 
At that meet I also tried the LCD-2, the build quality did not seem bad at all, and the sound was something special, like an HD650 but a better. Not, however, $700 better, which is something to keep in mind.

 

[jasonb]

Well it must be my amp then because my HD650's sound warm and definitely bassy. There is plenty of bass and bass impact. I like bass though. I will agree that it is still a natural sound though. It is also a known fact that HeadRoom's crossfeed adds warmth and bass to the mix. I always use the crossfeed and I have the brightness switch set to "filter 1" to help even things back out a bit. "Filter 1" adds a bit of life back into the upper mid-range and top end and seems to make the soundstage seem a tad larger as well. I'm really enjoying the HeadRoom amp and HD650 combo. It sounds exactly like I was hoping it would sound.

 

[Lan647]

How amp picky are the HD 800's compared to the 650's?

 

[GeorgeGoodman]

Quote:

Well it must be my amp then because my HD650's sound warm and definitely bassy. There is plenty of bass and bass impact. I like bass though. I will agree that it is still a natural sound though. It is also a known fact that HeadRoom's crossfeed adds warmth and bass to the mix. I always use the crossfeed and I have the brightness switch set to "filter 1" to help even things back out a bit. "Filter 1" adds a bit of life back into the upper mid-range and top end and seems to make the soundstage seem a tad larger as well. I'm really enjoying the HeadRoom amp and HD650 combo. It sounds exactly like I was hoping it would sound.

That is good to hear, as it must have been the amp at the meet. 
 
@Lan647,
The HD800s are notoriously picky about amps and source. They are so revealing that any imperfections or lack of quality get heard by you. The  general consensus is that it takes at least fifteen hundred to two thousand dollars to bring out the potential in them. If you like bass, impact, and a less picky headphone, there are many headphones that are less expensive that will literally do 9/10 of what it can do.

 

[SP Wild]

The HD650s are a little picky with needing an amp to reach a good potential.  The HD800s and any of the current flagship crop is even more pickier, merely by the fact that their potential is much greater than yesterdays flagship.  But people seem to overlook source...when the amp/source is a carefully matched pair...as much attention needs to paid to the source than amplifier.  Source first when it comes to current flagships IMHO.

 

[grokit]

 
Quote:

For the money - and I'm factoring in the used market - you can't get a better value than the HD650.  Having owned both it and the HD800, I'd have no difficulty pronouncing the HD800 a "better" headphone but for $1,400 - compared to the $250 I spent on the HD650 - it should be.  When you look at what it costs to make an HD650 sing, there's no reason to knock it.  Yes, there are better headphones but an HD650, with silver cabling and a decent amp, is hardly fried bologna and Kool-Aid.  If it is, then cook me up a batch and don't forget the ice.

The HD800 used is a bout $1000; I would say that it is probably twice as good as the 650 but not 4X as good. For me there was no comparison though as I tried the 650 trice and sold it quickly both times. IMO the world of headphone listeners is divided into two; the HD650 camp and the HD600 camp, I still haven't come across a post-er that likes both.

 
Quote:

Well it must be my amp then because my HD650's sound warm and definitely bassy. There is plenty of bass and bass impact. I like bass though. I will agree that it is still a natural sound though. It is also a known fact that HeadRoom's crossfeed adds warmth and bass to the mix. I always use the crossfeed and I have the brightness switch set to "filter 1" to help even things back out a bit. "Filter 1" adds a bit of life back into the upper mid-range and top end and seems to make the soundstage seem a tad larger as well. I'm really enjoying the HeadRoom amp and HD650 combo. It sounds exactly like I was hoping it would sound.

For what its worth I hear the HD650 as definitely warmer than HD600/800, but not as warm as many others like Denon woodies for example.