[RickG]

Quote:

Originally posted by shivohum This is not to mention that Darth Nut's reference is the Omega II, no "mere" Grado . Sorry, but I think Darth's as perceptive and thoughtful a listener as I've seen post anywhere on these forums...

I'm with you, shivohum....It was Darth's review of the Omega II's that inspired me to buy mine. I've never looked back......

 

[Vertigo-1]

And I wonder how long did darth nut really listen to the R10s? I very, very highly respect darth nut, but his opinion on the R10s is simply not one I can accept, due to lack of credibility behind his amount of time spent with them, along with the usual list of associated equipment.

I can only agree with markl regarding the R10's bass, etc. If the Grado sound is one's bar by which all other headphones are compared, then there is no way a person can enjoy the R10s. IMO, the R10s are far superior to all of the Grados out there, which is why I still have the R10s, but no Grados.

I still have no idea why people are still picking on my past remarks about the CD3000s and clinging onto them like a lifeline. I've already come right out and said in a previous post that the R10s are both different and much, much better than them. My equipment is also about 10 times better than it was before. In fact I just added two more pieces of gear to my headphone rig that is now completely unleashing my R10's full potential like never before. Lack of transparency?!? HAH!

 

[Audio-Me]

Pay mucho for exotic wood, hard to get novelty, and call them hi-fi all you want. At least you've convinced yourself that you're happy. I'm perfectly happy with my "non hi-fi" Senns, and will be exstatic when I save up enough money to upgrade to Cary cdp and amp. Let me ask you this, are the the Cary CD-303/200 cdp and CAD-300SEI integrated not "hi-fi" as well?

Vert, what do you use for an amp? Surely you have something better than a portable one listed in your profile.

 

[PC Corp]

ok guys, calm down.

I just went to meal hall to have my supper and you guys are killing me.n

I have a AMC 8b CD player and a SAC AKG amp now. Jan made me an adaptor so I can plug the HD580's with it.

I haven't heard anything on the list above but I've read tons of rave reviews about them. And I truely believe that the reviews were biased, no question. All I want to say is that in my mind hi-end equipment should be at the level the reviews said.

Let face it, I said according to my hi-end standard. If you don't have a standard, fine, but I just happen to have one, such as the top 10 amps, or something like that in the world can buy.

People will find that I just listed all the out of reach equipment on my hi-end system list. Again, I just feel, (not from experience) that they are the best. If they are not in your mind, great, we have more hi-end equipment. I really don't care if the Wilson Grand Slam belongs to the list or not. If I find out one day that the $300 Bose is better, then I'll happily buy the Bose.

again, calm down everybody.
I really said HD580's are not hi-end (not hi-fi, so please don't be confused with hi-end and hi-fi) equipment. This is my opinion, ok. I've never said my opinion is more "right" than other people's. And I'm happy if you can prove that my opinion is wrong.

And about the Stereophile list, it's just a list for me to see what kind of equipment are out there. I'll be a fool if I pick all the most equipment from the list to assemble a system. (If I have to pay) But without any experience, I just rely the equipment on the list and other people's opinion to see what are the best.

MACdef' proving that Wilson Grand Slam isn't one of the best doesn't make HD580's become hi-end equipment because MACdef just proved that Wilson is overrated. And I believe there should be some hi-end speakers out there that could reproduce the music that the Stereophile and other writers claimed.

In my mind, a hi-end equipment should be able to reproduce music as close to the real thing as possible. From AMC +SAC, AKG1000's sound closer to the real thing than the HD580's, especially on guitar, piano. (***The Senns are connected to the SAC Amp, not my laptop ***) The guitar on Senn sounds like a $150 one, but it's a $400 one on AKG. I know that because my brother plays classical guitar very well and I was forced to listen a few hours a day and he has two similar price guitars.

I've had some live music experience but my phones just don't sound close enough to the real thing to convince me that they are hi-end phones. Of course, none of my equipment are.

If you go out and find the top 10 (or whatever number) speakers (including phones) that HD600's can be one the list, then you should be happy cause you don't have to waste your hard earned money.

Every thing I said is jusst MHO. Please feel free to attack me.

 

[dhwilkin]

Quote:

Vertigo-1 said... In fact I just added two more pieces of gear to my headphone rig that is now completely unleashing my R10's full potential like never before.

And what would those pieces be? Also, it's high time you got yourself a BPT unit or two for both the headphone and speaker rigs.

 

[Vertigo-1]

I will refrain from mentioning anything for now. This way I can avoid any new toy hype, and also enjoy the new toys in peace and quiet. I don't get to spend much time with them anyways due to my ears, but it has been four days now, and these new toys are making a serious difference for my R10s.

Speaking of which, I think the FedEx guy is supposed to show up today...

 

[dhwilkin]

I should've known better than to ask the King of Tease.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl When I bought my pair of HD580s back in the early 90s, $250 was a lot of money to me-- I was in college. It was also much better than the crummy bookshelf speakers I had at the time, so I was pretty happy. Compared to what I had heard at the time (I had never even set foot in a high-end shop), they seemed pretty hi fi to me. Again, R10 is in another class and I think that even the average guy off the street could tell the difference between them and HD600. I know its hard to believe that there are things better than the HD600 and ER4S, but there are.

Mark, I don't think you get what people are contesting here

I'm fully willing to consider that the R10 are better, possibly even much better, than the HD600 or Etys. I am also open to the possibility that not everyone will feel that way. Until I hear them myself, I have no way to know.

The issue of contention here is that PCCorp is claiming that one of the best headphones in the world--by most accounts, even those who don't like their "signature"--aren't "high-end" equipment. There are so few headphones that are clearly better than the HD600 that saying they aren't "high-end" is basically saying that there are only a few headphones around that are "high-end." If his definition of "high-end" is "the absolute best in every category and nothing else" then OK, I guess

But to say that the HD600 or the AKG K501 or the like aren't "high-end" is just amazing. And to say it when you've never even heard them on good equipment ?!? -- that's, well... I dunno what to call it. It simply defies logic.


Quote:

Are you SERIOUSLY comparing the HD600 to Wilson Grand Slams? That's quite a stretch don't you think?

The Grand Slams are considered among the top speakers in the world. The HD600 are considered among the top headphones in the world. To base your opinion of the sound of the HD600 on the signal from a laptop's audio jack is akin to basing your opinion of the Grand Slams on the signal from a Sony boombox's speaker outputs. That's not a stretch at all, and it makes no implications about how the HD600 and Grand Slams compare. It's simply stating that you're making a judgement about a top-tier product based on the signal from a crap product

Quote:

What can you say to people who prefer the fake Grado sound over the R10? Ain't no way anyone could convince me that the crappy Grado sound is "hi-fi" or "audiophile quality". If the Grado sound is your standard for good headphone sound, there's no way you'd appreciate an instrument like the R10, plain and simple.

Mark, these are the kind of comments I object to -- to say that anyone who doesn't agree must not "know" good sound. It's one thing to say that about people who think the Sony V600

But to say that about people who are educated music listeners? You may not like them, but that doesn't mean anyone who does can't hear right

Just as some of the most highly-acclaimed speakers in the world have a "signature" sound, so too do the best headphones in the world. The RS-1, just like the HD600, like the R10, like the Orpheus, like Etys, have been said by many reputable people to be one of the best headphones in the world. These aren't idiots who don't know what good sound is. These are people who are musicians, sound engineers, people who design and produce high-end audio equipment, and, yes, even Stereophile reviewers LOL. People prefer different "signatures" in their audio equipment. I'm sure the R10 have their own signature as well; you prefer it (a lot) over other headphones, so to you, it sounds "right." I personally prefer the HD600 and Ety sounds to the Grado sound. But I will never say that because of that the RS-1 isn't a hi-end headphone, or that people who like the RS-1 have low standards!







Quote:

Originally posted by PC Corp Let face it, I said according to my hi-end standard. If you don't have a standard, fine, but I just happen to have one, such as the top 10 amps, or something like that in the world can buy.

It's safe to say that people who like the HD600, K501, etc. do have standards. But more importantly, if your "standard" is "top 10" in a given category, then the HD600 are clearly "high-end." Because even if you don't like the signature sound of the HD600, it's VERY difficult for someone to argue that they don't belong in the list of the top 10 headphones.


Quote:

MACdef' proving that Wilson Grand Slam isn't one of the best doesn't make HD580's become hi-end equipment because MACdef just proved that Wilson is overrated.

You TOTALLY misread my statement. I didn't say the Grand Slams were overrated at all! LOL I said that judging the HD600 (or HD580) based on a laptop's sound output and thinking they're bad is the same as listening to the Wilsons out of a boombox and thinking they're bad. Neither "evaluation" is valid.

 

[RickG]

I guess I've never understood the "my dog's bigger then your dog" mentality. I agree with Jude's post....phrases like " smoke, blow away, and slaughter everything else" are totally meaningless. I have some of the most popular and well respected phones that are talked about endlessly on this site. I never assert that one is that better then the other (except within my frame of reference)....We're talking about so many variables here (cost, use, application, synergy w/other components,.etc.) Can one really say (within reason), my Cary W/HD 600's sound better then your R10's or vise versa?...do the Omega's sound better then the Senn Orpheus? This is a matter of personal taste and individual ears.

Let's get a life here, and understand that this is a vast world of individual taste and listening...There is no best....As joelongwood often says, just preferences ......

 

[ai0tron]

theres alot of idiotic **** being said in this thread. Like the hd600's arent true audiophile devices. Whoever said that is acting foolish. Stereophile CLASS A = hd600's

 

[PC Corp]

Quote:

Say no more. Trio speakers are almost $40,000/pair... which couldn't possibly be called "Hi-End" by Sushmie Farrah Abdullah, owner of a Kharma Grand Reference at $1,000,000/pair. "Phew, I speeeet on your plastic horns!".

Well, if there are some speakers way better than the Avantgarde Trio, then accept it that the Trio speakers are no longer hi-end. And what's wrong with that? I can accept that without a tear. I just love music, not Avantgarde speakers.
Yes, Sushmie Farrah Abdullad should not call the Trio hi-end, but if his hi-end standard is the top 10 pair of speakers, then the Trio will have a great chance on the list. If Sushmie wants to have to ultimate pair of speakers as hi-end and find the Kharma are the only pair that can meet his standard, then throw the Trio away.

If you are pissed because the equipment are too expensive, then I suggest you to open your mind. 10 years ago, I bought the newest hi-end 486 computer. Why should I cry because it no longer is hi-end now. Companies have never targeted you and me as the superfluous expensive equipment. Don't be outrage. You don't have to pay. Have you read the news last month that five british bankers went to a restaurant, drank some fine wine, and paid $60,000. Yes, that's ridiculous. But reality is always ridiculous.

Honestly, Many of us dream about getting a hi-end sports car Ferrari. But I won't call the Ferrari 360 a hi-end supercar. A supercar should be something like the Ferrari F50 or McLarean F1. Ouch, the F60 are coming. So, sorry F50 owners. You may have to pay another half a million dollars to have the hi-end car. Luckily, if you define hi-end as the top 10 sports car, then your F50 should be on the list.

Life is a learning process.

 

[PC Corp]

geez, I've spent all afternnon on this one.

One more think, than I should take a break.
In my mind, HD600's are one of the top 10 phones. Ok, everybody's happy?

But they are not the top 10 hi-end equipment, combaning speakers and headphones together.

Oops, sorry MacDEF for misunderstanding it. But people are like crazy here. (Maybe I'm just talking about myself, never mind.) Don't have time to read carefully.

ai0tron,
Only the fool won't talk openly. We have 2 ways to gain knowledge. one is to experience himself/herself and the other one is to learn from others. So I won't call other people's opinion idiot $hit. You never know if you are right or not. Of course we all do, but it's just what we think. Not what the reality is. We all have reasons to support our opinion here. We have to use fact to prove our opinion, not something like you're an idiot and bla bla bla. Someone is an idiot doesn't mean he/she cannot say something meaningful. And I can prove that because many people with very low IQ can do some execeptional things, such as being genius in Math.

 

[ai0tron]

I personally think PC corp is getting delusionary because HD600's with a good amp like a MAX, Melos, Cary, RKV, etc. will compete with practically any speaker setup and probably surpass it in terms of ultimate resolution of fine details. I've been to the hi-fi shop, and I've heard B&W's, avantgarde DUO's being driven by BAT tube amps, the sense of control and effortless sound reproduction was not equal to the HD600's. I've heard Vienna Acoustics top of the line stuff being driven by B&K's top of the line amps, sourced to a top of the line Creek cd player, and as excellent and wonderful as it sounded, it was NOT hands down better than the HD600's. In particular, the bass, which went impressively deep, was somewhat congested in comparison to the HD600's bass. Mind you the sense of space, the fullness of the sound, and the overall sensation of being present at a musical event was stronger with the speaker system. I feel however that most advantages of speakers to headphones have to do with psychological perceptions rather than the actual quality of the transducer. Even so there are certain specific details that the HD600's do better. Better even than a 10,000+ speaker system.

 

[Tuberoller]

Wow!!!
according to my price lists and inquiries PC Corp has $104,000 worth of audio gear(in today's money).That's just...........amazing.


I bought a set of Avante Garde Duos and I'll tell you flat out that even at way less than half their $16,000 retail they are not worth it.

I have also had the pleasure of owning an Orpheus and currently own Hd600s.I sell all the Stax line and have heard them all many times in my systems.I have also heard the R10s,twice.Once at CES at Las Vegas in January and once before that at Holm Audio.At Ces they were being driven by a Cary 300 SEI, at Holm audio they were being driven by a different Cary integrated amp(I don't remember which model).If you guys remember the pics I took(do a search) you'll know that I borrowed a set of HD600s w/clou red jaspis from the Stereophile room as well to try out some headamps and other gear.The statement that HD600 are not real audiophile gear is rediculous.I did think that the R10s were superior in some ways to the HD600/Clou combo(also being driven by a Cary amp)but not ten times better and not even twice as good.If you want to quantify,based on my ownership of the Orpheus and HD600s,extensive listening experiences with the Stax line up,and an short(40 minutes)listening session with the R10s at CES and my listening session at the Headroom meet, I would place them in this order:

1.Orpheus=100% Headphone Nirvana.
2.Stax Omega 007=95%(with tubed driver)
3.Stax SRS-4040 =90% (Stax signature series with SRM-006t tube driver unit.
3.HD600/Blochead combo
4.Stax Omega 717=90%(with solid state driver)
5.HD600/Clou Red Jaspis Wheatfield HA2=80%
5.HD600/Clou headroom Max=80%
6.R10/Cary 300-SEI=75%


these are of course my opinions but they are all based on actually hearing the equipment.As you all know, I have never expressed any type of loyalty to any gear.I just was not that impressed with the R10s when I heard them and I think you need to realize that the laws of "diminishing returns" kick in at a very steep curve once you get past the HD600 /Max or Wheatfield combo.The HD600/Blockhead combo is,in my opinion,the best really high end bargain going.The Stax SRS-4040 is a close second at near the same price.I guess if you can afford to spend $100,000 on gear diminishing returns is not really an issue.Anybody want to but a set of Avante Gardes?

 

[Audio-Me]

Fred, shouldn't HD600/300-SEI be on the top of your list?

As goofy as ai0s comments are, I appreciate and respect his comments because he's somewhat practical, and is pretty much straight forward. The stuff he says might be sketchy, but they're not far fetched, easy to understand if you think about it. Oh and he's loyal to the Senns.