[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif x2, I keep smelling that. My writing in this thread hasn´t really been so much to "defend" the HD650 (which I do like indeed), but to point out several weak suspicious points (hearsay, lack of ruling out alternative origins) about these alleged findings of smearing qualities in the 650s.

Don't make yourself rediculous, al you say is i smell something without contrubuting anything, if any, you are a troll.

Hd600 with aftermarket cable, akg 701, don't have it. Stax system didn't have it. Need more?!

if any, i smell someone that can't take any criticism about his preferred headphone.

Your agenda would be trolling?! i've seen you doing it in other threads as well, remember the cable threads?!

 

[TheVinylRipper]

And two more, same frequencies..

 

[TheVinylRipper]

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif And two more, same frequencies..

ehmm, could you enlighten me of what exactly those graphs show me?!

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your agenda would be trolling?!

No it isn´t. My agenda is more along the lines of exposing invalid or bogus claims, or weakly supported arguments, or personal opinions/impressions disguised behind irrelevant "scientific measurements".

I think it's better to simply leave things at "this is my opinion or my impressions", instead of attempting to support your impressions with hearsay and/or very poorly gathered, inappropriate "evidence".

 

[TheVinylRipper]

As you can see here it doesn't even take all that much bass to effect the 2500 hz tone

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif ehmm, could you enlighten me of what exactly those graphs show me?!

Take a look at the base of the 2500 hz tone spike when the low frequency note is present, see how it is fuzzy and wide?

See on the 2500 hz tone spike without the low frequency note the 2500 hz tone spike is clean at the bottom.

That fuzzyness at the bottom of the 2500 hz note is extra frequencies being generated by something, I suspect doppler effect but I can't prove it for sure..

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've heard some STAX before. They were nice, but I preferred my HD650s. (To their credit, they were definitely the best out of the ones I was listening to at the time.)

Sorry, I got a bit lost here. Does your preference of the HD650 over STAX headphones refute the claim that the HD650 driver is "slow" relative to the STAX headphones? I'm just wondering, to those that believe there is no smearing, would you disagree with the claim that the HD650 appears to smear some sounds when compared with a "faster" pair of headphones (such as electrostats)? Do keep in mind that I am not saying that a headphone sounds bad if it "smears" the sound in any way (despite the negative connotations of the word).

Note: I have NOT heard the HD650. Thus, I cannot say whether there actually is smearing or not, but I do find the topic interesting.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by heretical /img/forum/go_quote.gif Any single driver covering the whole audio spectrum will show the same side effect. I think it's called intermodulation distortion.

Then there is something going on that will cause the treble to sound different when there are bass notes present.

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Quote:

Sorry, I got a bit lost here. Does your preference of the HD650 over STAX headphones refute the claim that the HD650 driver is "slow" relative to the STAX headphones?

No, it really doesn't. Not that it really matters. Even if the electrostatic headphone is faster, it is not anything significant. We're talking perhaps only a few microseconds worth of difference at most in impulse response speed.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then there is something going on that will cause the treble to sound different when there are bass notes present.

Yes, the pertinent thing would be to show properly intermodulation distortion measurements of HD650 compared to most other headphones. Your graphs haven´t shown anything along those lines.


Headroom has graphs for HD650's harmonic distortion (and just in case, it's different from intermodulation distortion):

The HD650's harmonic distortion apparently looks better than the Stax's and even the Orpheus':

Unfortunately their K701 harmonic distortion graph seems to be missing:

Here's the HD650 harmonic distortion compared to (and beating) the harmonic distortion measurements of the Beyer 880, AKG 501, and Grado GS1000:

I remember when the 650 came out, one of its distinct features was to have allegedly slightly improved the already excellent harmonic distortion measurements of the HD600:

PS. Notice that these graphs show and compare Harmonic Distortion, which is different from Intermodulation Distortion. The real comparison this thread aims at would be to get proper and repeatable measurements of intermodulation distortion of the HD650 vs. several other headphones.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

But the graphs you show are not for intermodulation distortion.

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by heretical /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just a quick comment - there is far worse you can do to sound, than a ever so slight "smearing" (supposing it's there). Electrostatic headphones may or may not be faster, but they may very well suffer from other, worse problems than the one discussed here.

If you don't mind me asking, why did you post this quick comment (I mean this in the sincerest way; I'm sorry if it comes off as being rather direct and instigative)? I added my statement about smearing not meaning bad sound because I've noticed people here tend to get really get offended and defensive when their favorite headphone is associated with such a word by somebody else. There's nothing wrong with liking headphones that "smear" the sound to some degree relative to other headphones (do again note that I'm NOT saying that the HD650 do or do not smear the sound as I have not heard them). I personally found this to be the kind of "defensive" post I didn't want to happen (more and more defensive posts means the more and more personal the discussion gets, which means the more and more likely it is that the thread will eventually result to flames will be locked) by pointing out that "smear" doesn't equate to "bad sound." I just find it odd that someone would feel it necessary to point out there are worse problems than smearing that may be found in electrostats in response to my post; my intention is not to insult the HD650s as I have not heard it (and if the HD650s do "smear" the sound relative to other headphones, I am NOT saying that this is a bad thing).

Once more: I am NOT saying that the HD650 do or do not smear the sound. If they do smear the sound, I am not saying that the result is a bad sound and it doesn't have to be interpreted as a bad sound (though the headphones may not smear in the first place).

Hopefully I put enough of these safety statements in my post so that we don't get more defensive posts.

PiccoloNamek - I've been curious about that. So, would it be psychoacoustics that would cause somebody to claim that a headphone sounds "faster"? Are there any measurements that could account for this perception of various speed among headphones? Or is the case that there are measurements that prove that electrostats are faster than the HD650, but the difference in speed is so small that it should not be audible (I recall some discussion about this in the STAX thread awhile back; Carl was talking about measuring "slew rate" or something)?

 

[Roam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Take a look at the base of the 2500 hz tone spike when the low frequency note is present, see how it is fuzzy and wide? See on the 2500 hz tone spike without the low frequency note the 2500 hz tone spike is clean at the bottom. That fuzzyness at the bottom of the 2500 hz note is extra frequencies being generated by something, I suspect doppler effect but I can't prove it for sure..

Congratulations, you've proven that intermodulation distortion exists. IM distortion exists in all audio gear.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif But the graphs you show are not for intermodulation distortion.

I'm aware of that, but I submitted my post and then went through my regular post-posting editing. See my PS. and the beginning of my post now.