[James63]

I have heard this before and I feel that all single driver headphones/speakers tend to have this problem more than multi driver units.

Here is a thred that might relate to your question. It was debated if it was a problem with the recording or with the headphones.....it could not be the headphone....there perfect

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250581

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by James63 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have heard this before and I feel that all single driver headphones/speakers tend to have this problem more than multi driver units. Here is a thred that might relate to your question. It was debated if it was a problem with the recording or with the headphones.....it could not be the headphone....there perfect http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250581

I am quite sure it is the headphone, since it occurs on all recordings and since the source and amp became more high end, this phenomenon became more apperent! The more resolution you get, the more obvious it gets, it's that simple. I can tell you one thing, on my system it is perfectly possible to tell any flaws in a headphone. They are both on a very high level. Especially the amp has all the best things audio has to offer in there.

I think you're right it could be the way the hd650 was constructed is the limitation.

I am also aware that some people think that the hd650 is the best headphone out there, it simply isn't. it has flaws, i hear them, also other people. The higher end your system gets, the easier you'll hear problems in a headphone or driver.

 

[splawren]

Wow, why the harsh accusatory tone and grilling? The OPs simply looking to see if someone else has had the same experience and looking for a cause based on the headphone. I don't sense any trolling or "agenda" here in the posts this far.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by splawren /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, why the harsh accusatory tone and grilling? The OPs simply looking to see if someone else has had the same experience and looking for a cause based on the headphone. I don't sense any trolling or "agenda" here in the posts this far.

Thank you, i didn't understand either.
It is obvious that the more we talk openly about this phenomenon, more people come out and talk about it!
it's not like i am the first one talking about the hd650 and smearing sounds.

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not exactly, what happens with the doppler effect is that when the source is moving toward you the sound waves are crowded closer together and when the source is moving away from you the sound waves are spread apart. The closer together the sound waves are, the higher the frequency and vise versa. The faster the motion of the source, the more the frequency is changed. This is almost exactly analogous to red shift and blue shift with light waves. The more powerful the bass note, the faster the driver has to move to reproduce that note and the more pronounced the doppler effect will be.

This is all just speculation and hearsay, of course. The distances a headphone driver covers are extremely small; I'm not even sure if this is a factor. Smaller drivers move even less. The diaphragm in an armature moves less than 1/1000 of an inch, even for the loudest, bassiest notes. And not only that, but with headphones, they aren't really propagating sound into your ear so much as they are moving your eardrum directly by pressuring your ear canal - especially true for IEMs, where the entire ear canal is sealed off and the movement of the driver and eardrum are effectively linked to each other.

 

[mdarnton]

Surfaces under stress or whose shape has been bent/changed are stiffer. I don't have any problem that in extreme cases (hard-hitting bass notes being a good example) the vibratory characteristics of those surfaces would change from what the designers intended under most circumstances.

Different materials and construction are obviously going to respond differently, and it doesn't matter a bit that all headphones are similar in construction and concept--I hope no one would suggest that the drivers and driver materials in all headphone brands are identical in implying that other phones should or should not show this effect! Perhaps the particular materials and construction which are responsible for the good qualities of the HD650 under normal circumstances simply don't work at some types of extremes, and that's a design sacrifice to facilitate other tonal advantages. From an outsider's perspective (not owning the cans) I haven't seen much criticism of this aspect of the 650s, so maybe it was a wise sacrifice to make, given that most people haven't noticed it or commented on it in the past.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Here is an experiment you can try for free if you can play your headphones from your computer.

Download the DC6 demo, it is fully functional but limited to one minute of recording or playback.

http://www.diamondcut.com/Downloads/Downloads.htm

When you have the demo installed open three instances of DC6.

In the first instance go to Edit, Make Waves. When the make waves window opens make sure that the Linear Sweep box is unchecked and the Sine Wave button is selected. Then put in for frequency a low bass tone, something like 53 Hz or so, set level to -20 db and length to 59 seconds and then create the wave file.

In the second instance of DC6 do the same thing but set the frequency to a high treble, say six kHz with the rest of the settings the same.

Play the treble wav file in the second instance of DC6 over your headphones at a loud but not uncomfortable volume. You may have to go to Edit, Preferences, Sound Card to select your sound card.

Cut and paste the bass wav file created in the first instance of DC6 into the third instance of DC6.

Then cut the treble wav file from the second instance of DC6 and mix paste it into the bass wav file already in the third instance of DC6.

Play the mixed file back over your headphones at a loud but not uncomfortable volume while listening for differences in the treble note.

Create louder and louder bass wav files in the first instance of DC6 and continue to mix paste them into the treble file from the second instance and play the mix in the third. Three db steps should be about right for the increase in volume.

Does the treble note change character with increasing volume of the bass?

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is all just speculation and hearsay, of course. The distances a headphone driver covers are extremely small; I'm not even sure if this is a factor. Smaller drivers move even less. The diaphragm in an armature moves less than 1/1000 of an inch, even for the loudest, bassiest notes. And not only that, but with headphones, they aren't really propagating sound into your ear so much as they are moving your eardrum directly by pressuring your ear canal - especially true for IEMs, where the entire ear canal is sealed off and the movement of the driver and eardrum are effectively linked to each other.

I agree completely that it is speculation.

Not hearsay though since this is my own hypothesis.

 

[James63]

It is very real...but also very hard to hear. There are other headphones that have the same tonal balance but are not as "silky smooth". Maybe this smoothness (what I love about the Senns) is a little bit of color from lack of separation.

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here is an experiment you can try for free if you can play your headphones from your computer. Download the DC6 demo, it is fully functional but limited to one minute of recording or playback. http://www.diamondcut.com/Downloads/Downloads.htm When you have the demo installed open three instances of DC6. In the first instance go to Edit, Make Waves. When the make waves window opens make sure that the Linear Sweep box is unchecked and the Sine Wave button is selected. Then put in for frequency a low bass tone, something like 53 Hz or so, set level to -20 db and length to 59 seconds and then create the wave file. In the second instance of DC6 do the same thing but set the frequency to a high treble, say six kHz with the rest of the settings the same. Play the treble wav file in the second instance of DC6 over your headphones at a loud but not uncomfortable volume. You may have to go to Edit, Preferences, Sound Card to select your sound card. Cut and paste the bass wav file created in the first instance of DC6 into the third instance of DC6. Then cut the treble wav file from the second instance of DC6 and mix paste it into the bass wav file already in the third instance of DC6. Play the mixed file back over your headphones at a loud but not uncomfortable volume while listening for differences in the treble note. Create louder and louder bass wav files in the first instance of DC6 and continue to mix paste them into the treble file from the second instance and play the mix in the third. Three db steps should be about right for the increase in volume. Does the treble note change character with increasing volume of the bass?

It would be much easier to do this in a program that has a multitrack viewer. So, I went ahead and did it, for the benefit of all.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/02ge3g

 

[J-Pak]

I definitely heard the smearing on the HD650 I owned. The HD580 does it as well. I don't think they're any less enjoyable because of it, I believe it's part of their signature sound. It does tend to make the imaging fuzzy and not particularly well defined. For this reason I prefer my other two main headphones for critical listening.

 

[daltonlanny]

Personally, I have never noticed any type of "smearing" on my 650's.
When I first got them and used inferior sources and amps, I did notice a "veiled" sound, but not now.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif It would be much easier to do this in a program that has a multitrack viewer. So, I went ahead and did it, for the benefit of all. http://www.sendspace.com/file/02ge3g

Great, I was just pointing out the way I know how to do it with what I have.

Thanks for the link, btw I've been looking for something like that..

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by splawren /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, why the harsh accusatory tone and grilling? The OPs simply looking to see if someone else has had the same experience and looking for a cause based on the headphone. I don't sense any trolling or "agenda" here in the posts this far.

Apologies if I sounded harsh, but the tone and lack of some basic/minor rigorousness in the reports just triggered some red-flags for me. Also the fact that the sentence "The higher the equipment, the more you can hear the HD650s flaws" has been posted already so many times in this relatively small thread smells to me like an agenda, given that the statement could be applied to any headphone.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

OK, I did a couple of fft's, the first is a five khz tone with no bass and the second is a five khz tone with a twenty eight hz tone added.

Played through Yamaha HP-3 orthodynamic phones.

It's fairly clear that the bass tone does something to the treble