[tourmaline]

I was in another thread, wich was quite interesting but was finally closed down.

My question still is unanswered;

i noticed that the hd650 is smearing sounds. I heard some other people talking about this as well.

What i want to know is are there any other people that heard this phenomenon also and does it occur mostly with natural instrument, tube amps or does it happen in general.

I modded my headphone amp to the max and it is much, much better now and it became more apperent that the hd650 smears sound in the upper regions of the sound. I have the feeling, on my system it occurs more with natural instruments but it also occurs with electronic music but to a lesser extend.

or, is it just the way the drivers produce sounds?!

I also had an expensive electrostaic setup and i can't recall hearing this smearing in that setup.

Enlighten me!

 

[rsaavedra]

I think you should characterize better what you mean by "smearing".

Also, have you observed whether this aspect you call smearing is clearly absent in other headphones when using the same music, source, and amp? That goes to rule other components as the source of what you are calling smearing.


What equipment are you using btw, and what other headphones are you (if so) comparing that you haven't heard such aspect from? Once again, assuming same music/recording, source, and amp.

 

[PiccoloNamek]

What do you mean by "smearing"? The HD650s have a very quick transient response, so I don't see how this would be possible.

I have never noticed it.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think you should characterize better what you mean by "smearing". Also, have you observed whether this aspect you call smearing is clearly absent in other headphones when using the same music, source, and amp? That goes to rule other components as the source of what you are calling smearing. What equipment are you using btw, and what other headphones are you (if so) comparing that you haven't heard such aspect from? Once again, assuming same music/recording, source, and amp.

I have only one setup.

But i heard others talking about it as well, with different system. o apperently, the higher end your amp gets, this smearing of sound become more apperent. it is not in the hard of the note, but the outer edge of the note colliding with the outer edge of the other tones notes of other instruments.

One thing that is a myth is the veil, if your cables and amp are up to notch, there is NO veil at all!

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif But i heard others talking about it as well, with different system. o apperently, the higher end your amp gets, this smearing of sound become more apperent. it is not in the hard of the note, but the outer edge of the note colliding with the outer edge of the other tones notes of other instruments.

So you are reporting on it just because others heard it as well? Are you sure whatever they say they hear is the same thing you are hearing?

And how are you so sure this isn't happening somewhere else in your chain if you only have one setup? Why would you locate the cause of what you call "smearing" on particular the 650's? Shouldn't you at least try some other headphones first with the same rest of your setup and music, not find such "smearing" you hear on the 650's, then report your finding that it seems to happen on the 650's while not on other headphones?

Quote:

I have only one setup.

Which is...?

 

[TheVinylRipper]

I'm really glad you started this thread because it is an effect I have noticed myself and I find it very interesting to pursue the possible causes of this.


I can think of at least two possible reasons for the "smearing" of which you speak. On the other thread you mentioned that smearing was particularly present when there was a lot of bass or strong drum hits in the music.

The first reason is the doppler effect, as the driver moves toward and away from your ears with the bass notes it is at the same time trying to reproduce the more delicate midrange and treble frequencies. These higher frequencies are modulated in frequency by the doppler effect which is in essence a raising of the frequency as the sound source moves toward you and a lowering of the frequency as the sound source moves away. The higher the frequency being reproduced the more pronounced the doppler effect will be, so overtones and harmonics will be particularly effected.

The other possible reason for the smearing that you speak of is that the sheer force required to accelerate the driver back and forth to produce the bass notes overwhelms the delicate motions necessary to reproduce the midrange and particularly the treble frequencies.

The higher in the frequency spectrum the driver is reproducing sound, the more delicate the motion of the driver. At extreme low frequencies the driver is moving back and forth with large motions which are quite visible in the case of woofers or subwoofers. The higher you go in frequency, the less driver motion it takes to reproduce the sound at a given volume.

Here is a graphic view of higher notes superimposed on a strong bass tone, is it any wonder the poor driver has a hard time accurately reproducing all of these motions at the same time?

On edit: Note the clipping at both the bottom and the top of the waveform.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm really glad you started this thread because it is an effect I have noticed myself and I find it very interesting to pursue the possible causes of this. I can think of at least two possible reasons for the "smearing" of which you speak. On the other thread you mentioned that smearing was particularly present when there was a lot of bass or strong drum hits in the music. The first reason is the doppler effect, as the driver moves toward and away from your ears with the bass notes it is at the same time trying to reproduce the more delicate midrange and treble frequencies. These higher frequencies are modulated in frequency by the doppler effect which is in essence a raising of the frequency as the sound source moves toward you and a lowering of the frequency as the sound source moves away. The higher the frequency being reproduced the more pronounced the doppler effect will be, so overtones and harmonics will be particularly effected. The other possible reason for the smearing that you speak of is that the sheer force required to accelerate the driver back and forth to produce the bass notes overwhelms the delicate motions necessary to reproduce the midrange and particularly the treble frequencies. The higher in the frequency spectrum the driver is reproducing sound, the more delicate the motion of the driver. At extreme low frequencies the driver is moving back and forth with large motions which are quite visible in the case of woofers or subwoofers. The higher you go in frequency, the less driver motion it takes to reproduce the sound at a given volume. Here is a graphic view of higher notes superimposed on a strong bass tone, is it any wonder the poor driver has a hard time accurately reproducing all of these motions at the same time? On edit: Note the clipping at both the bottom and the top of the waveform.

You could be right that it is a limitation of the actual drivers. The more high end you go, it seems more apperent.

this is another animation about the doppler effect. it seems that when something is comming to you, the soundwaves are getting smaller, if the sound is moving from you, the waves are getting bigger.

I dunno how this translates into a headphone though. Maybe about the position of the musician relative to the listener?!

Ah, i see some slight changes in the waveform above and and the bottom. Especially in the high frequencies.

So, to simplify things; the doppler effect is smearing in the higher regions because of the waves of lower frequencies interfering with them. Like some aftershocks.

This doesn't occur with seperate units, right? So, if you have a 3 way system, it couldn't occur. no interference of low freuncy and mid/high frequencies.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you are reporting on it just because others heard it as well? Are you sure whatever they say they hear is the same thing you are hearing? And how are you so sure this isn't happening somewhere else in your chain if you only have one setup? Why would you locate the cause of what you call "smearing" on particular the 650's? Shouldn't you at least try some other headphones first with the same rest of your setup and music, not find such "smearing" you hear on the 650's, then report your finding that it seems to happen on the 650's while not on other headphones? Which is...?

yes, it was the same phenomenon. In the other thread where i spoke about and also thevinylripper speaks about, at least one clearly discribed the same thing i was hearing!

system seems not to be that important since it occurs on different systems.

I know of one person with the same amp and headphone i have and he also clearly stated this phenomenon. He also tried this with the akg 701 and he didn't seems to hear it on that headphone. Sounds and notes re more distinct on that headphone, with more air between the voices/instruments.

 

[rsaavedra]

Sorry Tourmaline, but your not getting to the point avoiding answering my simple questions precisely, and then reporting hearsay, suggests that you seem to have an agenda.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here is a graphic view of higher notes superimposed on a strong bass tone, is it any wonder the poor driver has a hard time accurately reproducing all of these motions at the same time?

What you indicate about higher notes superimposed on a strong bass tone applies to all single driver transducers like headphones and also single driver speakers, not just to the 650 in particular.

Quote:

On edit: Note the clipping at both the bottom and the top of the waveform.

So, where does that graph come from? A random plot from a given audio signal with clippling doesn't say anything about any particular headphone. That could come from measuring the output of a top notch CD player, just playing a bad recording which has clipping.


What's going on guys? I sense something particularly fishy here, plus the fact that you guys were involved in one recently closed thread. Hmm.....

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry Tourmaline, but your not getting to the point avoiding answering my simple questions precisely, and then reporting hearsay, suggests that you seem to have an agenda.

?

It is not a limitation of my source or amplifier! Far from it! It is in the hd650, clearly, as it doesn't occur with the akg 701 on the same system.

Ofcourse it is hearsay, i cannot sample a file of what they actually hear, can i?!

I was talking with some people about the hd650 and the subject of smearing sounds came up and he also noticed this phenomenon. Simple as that. So where is the agenda?

denon dcd 3000-heavally modded bada ph12 with silver signal caps, black gate caps, vcaps and silver wiring. I can tell you with confidence, it's not the source or amp. If any, they are on a higher level then the hd650!

I think with the modded amp to the max, the limitations of the hd650 become more apperent! I have now with those high end caps much more detail in the upper regions and thus smearing in the higher region becomes more obvious.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif You could be right that it is a limitation of the actual drivers. The more high end you go, it seems more apperent. this is another animation about the doppler effect. it seems that when something is comming to you, the soundwaves are getting smaller, if the sound is moving from you, the waves are getting bigger. I dunno how this translates into a headphone though. Maybe about the position of the musician relative to the listener?! Ah, i see some slight changes in the waveform above and and the bottom. Especially in the high frequencies. So, to simplify things; the doppler effect is smearing in the higher regions because of the waves of lower frequencies interfering with them. Like some aftershocks. This doesn't occur with seperate units, right? So, if you have a 3 way system, it couldn't occur. no interference of low freuncy and mid/high frequencies.

Not exactly, what happens with the doppler effect is that when the source is moving toward you the sound waves are crowded closer together and when the source is moving away from you the sound waves are spread apart.

The closer together the sound waves are, the higher the frequency and vise versa. The faster the motion of the source, the more the frequency is changed.

This is almost exactly analogous to red shift and blue shift with light waves.

The more powerful the bass note, the faster the driver has to move to reproduce that note and the more pronounced the doppler effect will be.

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is in the hd650, clearly, as it doesn't occur with the akg 701 on the same system.

Apparently it wasn't you who did that comparison but someone else. I understand that you haven't yet listened to other headphones in your own system, and have noticed a lack of this "smearing" you hear on the 650's.

I don't claim the 650's don't have limitations; they have them, like any other equipment. But your reporting this "smearing" is clearly bogus. You (and not other people who have told you) haven't done a minimum basic ruling out of other things to jump to conclusions on the origin of a so called smearing.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif What you indicate about higher notes superimposed on a strong bass tone applies to all single driver transducers like headphones and also single driver speakers, not just to the 650 in particular. So, where does that graph come from? A random plot from a given audio signal with clippling doesn't say anything about any particular headphone. That could come from measuring the output of a top notch CD player, just playing a bad recording which has clipping. What's going on guys? I sense something particularly fishy here, plus the fact that you guys were involved in one recently closed thread. Hmm.....

It wasn't closed because of me.

but you are right, this graph only shows the effects of the doppler effect, but you dunno wich source it is.I doubt it's a graph of a hd650 actually.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra /img/forum/go_quote.gif Apparently it wasn't you who did that comparison but someone else. I understand that you haven't yet listened to other headphones in your own system, and have noticed a lack of this "smearing" you hear on the 650's. I don't claim the 650's don't have limitations; they have them, like any other equipment. But your reporting this "smearing" is clearly bogus. You (and not other people who have told you) haven't done a minimum basic ruling out of other things to jump to conclusions on the origin of a so called smearing.

Oh yes i did, i also had the hd600......didn't have the smearing as the hd650 has. maybe your system isn't as high end as you thought it would be since more and more people are reporting about the smearing, it is obviously not bogus. Even tyll from headroom will have a serious look at it.

Hold your horses jumping to insulting conclusions!