[cjl]

Oh wait, I forgot, I gave up on this thread.
 
Carry on.

 

[jcx]

Gr8Desire seems to have created a strawman universe within which he argues with his own creations
 
his posting/profile is odd too - to burst into this full throated roar in 2 months - is he a refugee from another forum or a reboot/sockpuppet?
 
 
Quote:

 

  Nope.
 
A DSP can change the waveform however you want. It can change phase (frequency dependent or independent), it can mix in one channel into the other, it can add reverberation or distortion, or many more things. The trick is figuring out how to change the waveform to simulate sounds coming from in front of the listener (or to the sides, or above, etc...). That is nontrivial, but definitely not impossible.

 
 
That's what is said Changing a waveform is altering the signal with respect to time (x) or amplitude (y).  This simple statement covers all the waveforms you describe. That's not the issue anyways.
 
There NO trick (trivial or otherwise) that can change soundstage depth with respect to only 2 drivers facing each other. The only thing a DSP can do in this configuration is: widen the soundstage since all waveform changes (x,y) will be reflected on the same axis. Hopefully this dichotomy will become apparent to those of you who think DSP's have physical superpowers.

You may perceive a forward and back soundstage (who hasn't at one time or another?). Drivers facing each other on the same axis cannot be induced to produce such lateral sounds from any content (stereo, binaural, 5.1, 7.1 or whatever) unless a) reflections in the headphone cavity itself are calibrated and subsequently leveraged by some form of DSP or b) there exists some mechanism to control deflection of the driver cone/surface itself.  Neither method is common use outside of marketing literature.

 

[aphex27]

   
 
That's what is said Changing a waveform is altering the signal with respect to time (x) or amplitude (y).  This simple statement covers all the waveforms you describe. That's not the issue anyways.
 
There NO trick (trivial or otherwise) that can change soundstage depth with respect to only 2 drivers facing each other. The only thing a DSP can do in this configuration is: widen the soundstage since all waveform changes (x,y) will be reflected on the same axis. Hopefully this dichotomy will become apparent to those of you who think DSP's have physical superpowers.

You may perceive a forward and back soundstage (who hasn't at one time or another?). Drivers facing each other on the same axis cannot be induced to produce such lateral sounds from any content (stereo, binaural, 5.1, 7.1 or whatever) unless a) reflections in the headphone cavity itself are calibrated and subsequently leveraged by some form of DSP or b) there exists some mechanism to control deflection of the driver cone/surface itself.  Neither method is common use outside of marketing literature.

you must have missed my question yet again...what are the odds?

 

[cdsa35000]

Ppl listen for yourself all hp surround have the common "helium SQ" artifact, because they work with the same audio-electronics acoustic phenomenon "Out-Of-Phase" nature.
DSP can only mixing the surround/stereo channels together with some Out-Of-Phase amount relative to each other, to create "widen" Out-Of-The-Head effect (Virtual Surround).
There's no front and back placement just mixing for example the mono/center channel with some Out-Of-Phase x% into both L/R channels can only create to the top of the head placement that would suggest the "front", but that helium art. ruined that experience as it sound out-of -place not natural.
Out-Of-Phase audio is easily recognized as it can't reproduce full bandwidth, only thin exaggerated "helium" Mids, the more x% Surround/Wide setting the more wide Mono the total audio will be sound.

Listen for yourself honestly, DSP hp surround can impossible reproduce the same (in-phase) natural SQ from normal stereo/5.1/7.1 recordings:

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BxO9cd-sYA[/VIDEO]

 

[castleofargh]

Ppl listen for yourself all hp surround have the common "helium SQ" artifact, because they work with the same audio-electronics acoustic phenomenon "Out-Of-Phase" nature.
DSP can only mixing the surround/stereo channels together with some Out-Of-Phase amount relative to each other, to create "widen" Out-Of-The-Head effect (Virtual Surround).
There's no front and back placement just mixing for example the mono/center channel with some Out-Of-Phase x% into both L/R channels can only create to the top of the head placement that would suggest the "front", but that helium art. ruined that experience as it sound out-of -place not natural.
Out-Of-Phase audio is easily recognized as it can't reproduce full bandwidth, only thin exaggerated "helium" Mids, the more x% Surround/Wide setting the more wide Mono the total audio will be sound.

Listen for yourself honestly, DSP hp surround can impossible reproduce the same (in-phase) natural SQ from normal stereo/5.1/7.1 recordings:

you dismiss the entire idea based on how some general purpose surround systems sound. ok, but what a few of us are talking about is that you would need to target a specific headphone and specific ears. so obviously those stuff can't always work or even remotely sound good.
of course I don't feel like I'm in another dimension when I turn on my dolby crap on my computer. even less when the headphones I will use may very well have some 20+db differences between one another. it would be crazy to expect such uncontrolled environment to do great in any circumstances with any ears.
plz look into the smyth realiser as it's pretty much the only device doing what we're talking about right now(with the occulus rigs I expect a lot of softwares to work that way in the future with any form of head tracking tool). and notice how you do need to first measure sounds with microphones inside your own ears.

 

[cdsa35000]

you dismiss the entire idea based on how some general purpose surround systems sound. ok, but what a few of us are talking about is that you would need to target a specific headphone and specific ears. so obviously those stuff can't always work or even remotely sound good.
of course I don't feel like I'm in another dimension when I turn on my dolby crap on my computer. even less when the headphones I will use may very well have some 20+db differences between one another. it would be crazy to expect such uncontrolled environment to do great in any circumstances with any ears.
plz look into the smyth realiser as it's pretty much the only device doing what we're talking about right now(with the occulus rigs I expect a lot of softwares to work that way in the future with any form of head tracking tool). and notice how you do need to first measure sounds with microphones inside your own ears.

I'm not talking about surround sound that simulate real speakersetup with room specifics DSP algorithm.
There's already "cheaper" software that can simulate from many different room algorithm measurements.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator

[VIDEO]https://vimeo.com/122824574[/VIDEO]

Its not difficult to pass the 5.1 audio through those algorithm filter to simulate the room characterics.
Even with through your ear/headphone characterics or superduber headtracking algorithm, won't change the fact that the Out-Off-Phase manipulation/interpolation always comes with that squeaky voice (helium SQ) artifacts, that prevent it to sound as realistic/good natural as in-phase recordings!

https://fongaudio.com/demo/

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm8xwqOidIo[/VIDEO]

 

[ginetto61]

Hi and thanks for the extremely interesting advice and information
I have only an advice ... when you test these system put a eye mask on and let the brain decide
I did it listening to some demo on Youtube ... i am sure to have heard distinctly sounds from my back ... at the point that i was thinking really there was someone behind me ... boh scaring but also very exciting
this is already something i think ...
i have not saved the link but i promise to do in the future ... Youtube IS the way to spread out this systems
A very good Youtube demo would be an extremely powerful marketing tool indeed.
like a speaker talking and walking around the listening position
Thanks a lot again,  gino

 

[castleofargh]

 

you dismiss the entire idea based on how some general purpose surround systems sound. ok, but what a few of us are talking about is that you would need to target a specific headphone and specific ears. so obviously those stuff can't always work or even remotely sound good.
of course I don't feel like I'm in another dimension when I turn on my dolby crap on my computer. even less when the headphones I will use may very well have some 20+db differences between one another. it would be crazy to expect such uncontrolled environment to do great in any circumstances with any ears.
plz look into the smyth realiser as it's pretty much the only device doing what we're talking about right now(with the occulus rigs I expect a lot of softwares to work that way in the future with any form of head tracking tool). and notice how you do need to first measure sounds with microphones inside your own ears.

I'm not talking about surround sound that simulate real speakersetup with room specifics DSP algorithm.
There's already "cheaper" software that can simulate from many different room algorithm measurements.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator

Its not difficult to pass the 5.1 audio through those algorithm filter to simulate the room characterics.
Even with through your ear/headphone characterics or superduber headtracking algorithm, won't change the fact that the Out-Off-Phase manipulation/interpolation always comes with that squeaky voice (helium SQ) artifacts, that prevent it to sound as realistic/good natural as in-phase recordings!

https://fongaudio.com/demo/

I don't see why it should end up sounding bad as long as the microphone making the calibration is good enough. in phase, out of phase all that is something relative to the frequency and distance from each ears to the source of the sound. slightly move your head in a room and boom you're "out of phase". there is no out of phase, there is only a sound from a different distance if it's well implemented on all frequencies for both left and right. and what better way to do it than measure it for real on our head.
I didn't mention the smyth realiser because of the head tracking, but because they let you do the calibration based on your ears(you actually put the mics in your ears and run the test and if you place them badly, the result will suck). to me that's the key point in making my brain believe the sound really came from the room. 
maybe i'm wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me to deny a possibility based on stuff that aren't done for your own ears. that's what aphex27 has been talking about I guess when he asked for PRIR, I'm guessing the IR is for impulse response and must have to do with generating it by measuring from our ears.

 

[cdsa35000]

Because the virt. surround signal processing is based on the "out of phase" substraction cancellation algorithm between the L and R audio, some sound details be will missing.

It doesn't matter to me as I'm already enjoying my surround hp processing with (cheap solution) Creative SBX processing at 14%, any higher the helium art. will be too annoying.
Good thing SBX algorithm is adjustable with surround 0-100% intensity/effect that can be "calibrated" to the source/hp/preference, where-else other consumer Dolby hp/ DTS X:hp are limited by few fixed room presets.

 

[castleofargh]

Because the virt. surround signal processing is based on the "out of phase" substraction cancellation algorithm between the L and R audio, some sound details be will missing.

It doesn't matter to me as I'm already enjoying my surround hp processing with (cheap solution) Creative SBX processing at 14%, any higher the helium art. will be too annoying.
Good thing SBX algorithm is adjustable with surround 0-100% intensity/effect that can be "calibrated" to the source/hp/preference, where-else other consumer Dolby hp/ DTS X:hp are limited by few fixed room presets.

we're obviously not concerned about the same things and/or not talking about the same things. when I'm listening to music in a treated room sited on the one chair where everything has been optimized, that's the one and only place where keeping you head straight, you're supposedly hearing no "out of phase" sounds it's still BS but I'll go with the concept. just move on the side, get closer to the wall or just look somewhere else and that's it. some signals will be "out of phase" and you will get a different sound and different informations with different delays.
the sound takes a given time going from point A to B. if you move, the timing will change and there is nothing wrong with that, so obviously if a software tries to make you feel like the sound is coming from another place, it will alter the delays. you talk about out of phase signal like there ever was some "in phase signal". some dude placed one or more microphones at a given distance when the artist was singing or playing the guitar. if he had put it slightly closer, a lot of the signal would have changed but that wouldn't make the sound fake. then maybe some other guy will mix the album in stereo and create a fake scene with all the tracks. what's not out of phase in all that?
anything that can happen in real space for sound is obviously ok to use to create a virtual sound. and changing FR, delays, adding some reverb from different walls and objects in the room, all that will "ruin" the sound or make it great. some concert halls are loved because of how they "ruin" the sound. but once again, without any way to customize the response for a given headphone and a given ear, you will probaby never get the real deal, so chances are there will be something sounding fake.
IMO a good deal of surround effects suck because they abuse the reverb(at least that's why I don't use most of them), but that's another problem. one simulated room can only be that, one room. it could work well in a game moving in an underground parking lot, but obviously for music listening, not everybody enjoys the crap sound from a stadium ^_^.

 

[bigshot]

Most people live in real world rooms though. Theory is  a great place to start, but the real world intrudes too

 

[cdsa35000]

we're obviously not concerned about the same things and/or not talking about the same things.

Yes OK, You want loudspeaker/room characteristic simulation with headtracking, then the Smith or Out-of-Head Software will conclude the anwser for the OP.

 

[ginetto61]

Hello ! sorry to jump in again after a while ... but leaving aside for one moment the headtracking feature i am quite sure that i was surfing youtube and i found a video where at some point i perceived clearly some sounds coming from the front.
Very silly me i did not keep the link but the feeling was very strong and sensible.
I am sorry to make the same question again and again but are you aware of ANY video on Youtube where listening with HPs i can listen some frontal sounds ? even some video effects everything ... even for just few seconds.
i have been through all the binaural videos already but while the side sounds are excellent the frontal sounds are not existent at all.
Just to elaborate, a train on the front going from left to right is running through my head ... very devastating experience.
Just to explaing in some virtual reality video there are animals coming forward. The sound in the best case is out of my head, in the worst inside my head but never in front of me like it should.
I do not know if i have been clear or not. Sorry for the english.
Thanks again, gino

P.S. i gave a listen at the Out-of-Head Software by Fong Audio and it does not provide frontal sound at least from a demo i have listened on youtube. Amazing out of head sensation but no front sound, unfortunately. Maybe you have a specific track i can listen to ?
Let's say that i am looking for In front of me software. The day i will reach that i guess i will put the speakers in the cellar.

 

[bigshot]

I've heard binaural tracks that sound like they are coming from the front. But the problem for me is, my brain knows something is wrong with the sound and it keeps snapping it from front to back over and over randomly. It only sounded a foot or two in front of my head though. Nothing like speaker soundstage. It's probably easier to create that illusion when the sound object is closer to the head.

 

[ginetto61]

I've heard binaural tracks that sound like they are coming from the front. But the problem for me is, my brain knows something is wrong with the sound and it keeps snapping it from front to back over and over randomly.
It only sounded a foot or two in front of my head though. Nothing like speaker soundstage. It's probably easier to create that illusion when the sound object is closer to the head.

Hi and thanks a lot for the very kind and helpful reply. As i said no one of the binaural tracks i have listened to have provided me with this sensation of sound coming from ahead of me. This would make me a HP addicted completely. Actually I can get with an AKG a decent out of the head sound but not frontal sound. The sound goes from being lateral to the center of the head and then lateral again on the other side. It is moving on a flat plane through my head.
If you could direct me to those tracks you mention i will be grateful and curious to listen to them.
Thanks and regards, gino