[ginetto61]

Hi !
 
i am going to make a strong statement here.
The day that someone will be able with some kind of signal processing to create the illusion of sound coming from the front also with headphones ... everybody will switch immediately to headphones !
For me it is absolutely the main drawback with headphones.
In my case the front sound is completely missing and this causes fatigue during extended listenings.
This said i am here to ask if you have ever experienced this sensation and especially with which set up, i.e. whigh HPs and which amp.
I know about cross-feeding techniques ... but no one seems to work properly.
Opinions/advice are most welcome !
Have a nice day
gino

 

[Redcarmoose]

Have you ever heard sound coming from the front with headphones?


Yes, it was my Wife yelling at me to feed the dogs.

 

[ginetto61]

Have you ever heard sound coming from the front with headphones?
Yes, it was my Wife yelling at me to feed the dogs.

 
Hi and thanks for the valuable reply.
Image now your wife yelling directly in your ears ... much worse i guess.
Seriously ... i am using the headphones also while watching movies ... that usually last around 90-100 minutes
After half an hour i get sick in my head ... the listening experience becomes even painful ... like claustrophobic
At the point that i am wonder why nobody reports similar issues
I read that the AKG k1000 used to give less of this sound in the head sensation
But they are quite ridiculous ...
 
http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/Leserbriefe/Ralf-KH-Amp/AKG_K1000.jpg
 
i think that the solution must be some kind of digital processing of the signal ... i am sure that this is the only hope
like i am sure they will succeed in the end .... especially driven by virtual reality in video games ...
When they will succeed i am also sure we will see the all world listen through headphones
This lack of perception of sounds coming from the front is absolutely the biggest drawback in headphones
Simply because is absolutely ... unnatural. Not realistic at all.
Thanks again, gino

 

[bigshot]

With a binaural recording once, I heard sound coming from the front. But if I tried to focus on it, it would snap behind me. Front, back, front, back. In the end I gave up. With normal music, it's always a straight line through my head.

 

[ginetto61]

  With a binaural recording once, I heard sound coming from the front. But if I tried to focus on it, it would snap behind me. Front, back, front, back. In the end I gave up.
With normal music, it's always a straight line through my head.

 
Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable reply
The "acid test" for me are movies/tv series.
Yesterday i was watching for the 4th time "Breaking bad" that i love. One episode after the other ...
After a while i got nervous ... stressed.
This is the evidence of a not natural listening experience
Very very sad ... because i love hugely the headphones concept
Some kind of crossfeeding is really needed.
But again ... nobody is mentioning this issue that for me is a very basic one.
They all talk about transparency, tone, freq extension ... but nobody talks about the sound in the head feeling
It is to me like talking of a bad smelling after shave while working in a stable
If i render the idea
Thanks again,  gino

 

[Redcarmoose]

Really after all my years of Surround Sound, 5.1, SRS rack units and using Silent Cinema, I just love using an old pair of k 701s.


Some people have issues with the headband bumps but I have two pairs, early model with more bumps and a late model with the big AKG up high and the L and R markings lower.




They let air in so not hot, i can wear em for 4 hours straight. They work with movies due to the headstage. Hard to amp, still find a pair used for $170 and an Asgard for $100 used and you will be more than happy.


K1000s are nice and in a slight way sound like the k701s, problem is they are expensive and super hard to drive.

 

[ginetto61]

Really after all my years of Surround Sound, 5.1, SRS rack units and using Silent Cinema, I just love using an old pair of k 701s.
Some people have issues with the headband bumps but I have two pairs, early model with more bumps and a late model with the big AKG up high and the L and R markings lower.
They let air in so not hot, i can wear em for 4 hours straight. They work with movies due to the headstage. Hard to amp, still find a pair used for $170 and an Asgard for $100 used and you will be more than happy.
K1000s are nice and in a slight way sound like the k701s, problem is they are expensive and super hard to drive.

Hi !
thanks a lot for the very kind and valuable reply
If i understand well you mean that the combination k701 + Schiit Asgard gives less in the head sound ?  without any processing of the L and R signals ?
well this is extremely interesting for me
I do not know if you have experience of the akg 501 i have at hand ... do you think that they are similar ?
I have to try them this evening immediately.
I am just trying to push the fatigue up to 2 hours or so of listening ....
In the wait of some really working cross-feed solution of course
Thanks a lot again,  gino

 

[Redcarmoose]

Hi !
thanks a lot for the very kind and valuable reply
If i understand well you mean that the combination k701 + Schiit Asgard gives less in the head sound ?  without any processing of the L and R signals ?
well this is extremely interesting for me
I do not know if you have experience of the akg 501 i have at hand ... do you think that they are similar ?
I have to try them this evening immediately.
I am just trying to push the fatigue up to 2 hours or so of listening ....
In the wait of some really working cross-feed solution of course
Thanks a lot again,  gino

Yes, that is exactly right, just the headphones themselves push the effects and music outside your head, like life is. You can mess with multi-channel sound cards and gaming headsets but in the end I started to think it was just rickety and there was added reverb and artifacts. A lot of gamers use k701s and they also love HD800s still I think for your purpose as simple set up as you can is best.


No k501 experience.

Still I have not heard all the DSPs out there. They have one now that follows your head and moves the soundstage along with it. Really there is a bunch of new stuff besides PC soundcards.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Some members say the k701s have a sonic hole in the center of your head. I listen for it but do not seem to notice what people say. In an almost wrong style you can move the drivers around in relation to your ears and dramatically alter the sound, normally less aggressive.

I hear that there is also other models like the k701 that have different foam. The foam on my two pairs is kind of hard, not memory foam. Still I enjoy them just the way they are, that's why I own two pair.


Depending on the output of your source you may even find the Asgard to have some trouble with the k701s, as they are hard to drive correctly. When amped right the bass improves, also they change after 400 hours of burn in.

Still for the money the Asgard is a good choice, though some people drive them off old 1970s recievers, I never have.

 

[cdsa35000]

Cmon hp surround processing exits 20 yrs.
No, with normal stereo recording that are meant for speakers played through hp, you get only straight line L/Middle/R 2D sound and at most some Top like:


Only with special HRTF/binaural stereohead recording meant for hp is possible to get "3D surround" sound.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Recording/AS_creation.htm



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPTa4_HrPhs[/VIDEO]

UPDATE: True HRTF Surround.
TEST virtual surround sound HRTF positional audio for standard headphones:

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DcaeoGHa80[/VIDEO]

Far Cry 3 PC - HRTF 3D SOUND (X-Fi CMSS-3D) - Highest YT 1080p quality!

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvRqJZEfIuM[/VIDEO]

----------
To get hp simulated surround sound from the existing 5.1/7.1 surround (meant for speakers) movies/music/games:
- True 5.1 hp with 3 or more drivers each side:

- DSP HP Surround processing that convert 5.1/7.1 surround into stereo HRTF HP like with Dolby HP/SBX studio/DTS:X HP etc.
- And angled drivers/open HP will give abit more spacious sounding:
http://headfonics.com/2012/07/sony-sa5000-sony-analytical-ye/


http://www.head-fi.org/t/748785/dolby-home-threater-v4-7-1-vs-sbx-pro-5-1

 

[Redcarmoose]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I knew it was just a matter of time before these guys showed up. Lol

 

[ginetto61]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redcarmoose /img/forum/go_quote.gif


Yes, that is exactly right, just the headphones themselves push the effects and music outside your head, like life is.   You can mess with multi-channel sound cards and gaming headsets but in the end I started to think it was just rickety and there was added reverb and artifacts.

Hi ! even i still think that the "final solution" will be one day some sort of DSP system i agree with your point.  If the sound sounds too artificial is very likely to be fatiguing in the long term.

A lot of gamers use k701s and they also love HD800s still I think for your purpose as simple set up as you can is best.

This is exactly what i am thiking about ... maybe there is a videogame headset out there with a nice out of the head sound ... but they are so many that is difficult to understand the most valid on this aspect.  I think that videogamers are pushing a lot to get this kind of sound and this is very very good. I dont have any information about which are the best units in this regards.

No k501 experience.
Still I have not heard all the DSPs out there. They have one now that follows your head and moves the soundstage along with it. Really there is a bunch of new stuff besides PC soundcards.

I have found a guy here asking 200 USD for a used pair of 701.  

I guess they are in good conditions ... do you think the price could be right ?  

thanks again,  gino

 

[Redcarmoose]

I used play a lot of video gamers and still read about gamers using stereo headphones and somehow they are able to hear a game player in th game come from their front right or behind. These type of sound clues and if you can pinpoint an enemy player right before you make visual contact, relates to who wins or loses.




The used k701s sound about right? Have not been in the market for awhile. I purchased my first pair new and my second pair from the used forums here. There seems always to be a lot of used ones around, they sold a ton, and members can not like them due to the amping issue or the different sound signature. But for movies all the problems people may have with music reproduction go out the window. Listeners are more into how the dialogue and effects sound. The bass is cool in movies with the K701s because it is so controlled, none of that boomy bass that can catch up to you after a while.


Just make sure no ones tried the bass-mod on your pair. They can screw the wires up going into the driver. You also may check and find a crazy deal on new ones. Also the k7xx is brand new for $200. I have not heard it but it is said to be more musical and more bass centric. They are made in China where the original k701s were made in Austria.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/754790/first-massdrop-akg-7xx-new-in-box

New in box Mass Drop 7xx. $200

 

[ginetto61]

  With a binaural recording once, I heard sound coming from the front. But if I tried to focus on it, it would snap behind me. Front, back, front, back. In the end I gave up.
With normal music, it's always a straight line through my head.

 
Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting advice.
I tried some binaural recordings on youtube ... while the sound is actually more out of the head still the front perception i very weak.
I have a cd test with a stereo track to evaluate the virtual soundstage rendition of a stereo system.
 
http://s.sbito.it/images/83/8344901028.jpg
 
There is the speaker speaking and coming at you from the bottom of the recording room.
With a decent pair of speakers you actually feel the man approaching the listening spot in a way that is even scaring
With headphones ... let's say that is just not working at all.
This is an acid test ... a very precious track recorded with just one stereo mic well placed (or a pair of mono mics i do not know precisely).
This is for me the final test about virtual soundstage.
With the best system is just amazing.
 
Thanks again,  gino

 

[ginetto61]

Cmon hp surround processing exits 20 yrs.
No, with normal stereo recording that are meant for speakers played through hp, you get only straight line L/Middle/R 2D sound and at most some Top like:


Only with special HRTF/binaural stereohead recording meant for hp is possible to get "3D surround" sound.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Recording/AS_creation.htm

---

To get hp simulated surround sound from the existing 5.1/7.1 surround (meant for speakers) movies/music/games:
- True 5.1 hp with 3 or more drivers each side:

- DSP HP Surround processing that convert 5.1/7.1 surround into stereo HRTF HP like with Dolby HP/SBX studio/DTS:X HP etc.
- And angled drivers/open HP will give abit more spacious sounding:
http://headfonics.com/2012/07/sony-sa5000-sony-analytical-ye/


http://www.head-fi.org/t/748785/dolby-home-threater-v4-7-1-vs-sbx-pro-5-1

 
Hi and thanks a lot for the very helfpul and interesting reply
I can imagine that a different and more frontal placement of drivers can help to reduce the in the head sound feeling.  And this is very good indeed.
Still to get the frontal emission some kind of mixing L and R is needed.  I know it is a very challenging task.
I was think to a sort of box placed between the amp and the headphone
with some passive components inside (L, R and C) to get a acceptable cross-feed.
It would be fine just to reduce the hole in the mid front
I have to read more ... maybe something can be done.
It is the delay that is difficult but i have seen something about passive delay networks in speakers crossovers ...
Very very interesting topic
Thanks to everyone
Regards, gino