[fjrabon]

The Sennheisers don't need higher output impendace or 2nd order distortion; the bass is already distorted enough and high output impedance will just make them warmer, not power the bass the headphones have. It might increase the midbass hump but not actually be able to power the increased bass that the highter output impedance provides! What they need is an amp that can swiing the voltage swing well and nimbly.

These tiny little solid state amps like the M9XX, Magni 2U, Mojo, and the infinitely worse O2/Element just can't do that or open the headphones up. The headphones get loud but the staging is weak and the bass doesn't hit fast enough if it even hits decently hard on the M9XX and Magni 2. Instead of double kick rolls and fills in something like Motorhead being THUMP THUMP THUMP THUMP THUMP with each thump starting and stopping on a dime or continuing to linger while the next one starts anew (like how they sound in real life), you will just get THUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMP mud and then the sound of the beater hitting the drum skin. This is very recording recording depedent and also of the amount of compression used in recording and mixing too but is an easy way to.


It just so happens that these OTLs and hyrid tube amps that cost only a couple hundred bucks can swing voltage really well despite being a bit hazy (you need to move up to OTC to get rid of the haze/grain) while for solid state you really need to get something at least as good as the Asgard 2 (if you like neutralish. You might like the the Cavalli Liquid Carbon if you like syrup or HPA-3u/b if you like Chi-fi, opamp-rolled warmth or Audio GD if you like Krell sound). These midget amps just don't really get the job done even if the headphones are listenable or okay on them.

I don't think voltage swing means what you think it means. The m9XX provides essentially infinite current, which is what leads to the effects you're talking about, not voltage. Voltage essentially just leads to greater volume without distortion, it's current that impacts things like transient response. And again, the HD800 and HD800s have the same power requirements as the HD600 and HD650 anyway, and thus the fact that the m9XX performs well with the HD800s, but not the HD650 is left unexplained.

Finally, the Asgard and the m9XX swing almost exactly the same voltage and the m9XX provides a tiny bit more current, yet you recommend the Asgard? Also I'd say from personal experience the Asgard is as bad of a match with the HD600 as the m9XX and Magni are. You just sound like you're repeating half understood semi-truths. And I say this as somebody who owns a world class OTC amp and would thus love to proudly say you're right. But you're not. There are benefits to OTC designs, but it's not "swings more voltage"

 

[fjrabon]

The more I listen to the iDAC6, the more I'm absolutely certain the m9XX uses custom implementations of the four filters and NOT the ones AKM designed. The iDAC6 uses the five filters AKM designed, and the differences between the filters is MUCH MUCH MUCH larger than the difference in the m9XX's filters. The difference between super slow roll off and sharp roll off on the iDAC6 is like night and day, waaaaaaaay bigger than the difference in any of the filters on the m9XX. Super slow is sharp and in your face and has a lot of glare. Sharp roll off is relaxed, and booms, kind of like a vinyl setup through a very powerful tube amplifier.

 

[Psalmanazar]

I don't think voltage swing means what you think it means. The m9XX provides essentially infinite current, which is what leads to the effects you're talking about, not voltage. Voltage essentially just leads to greater volume without distortion, it's current that impacts things like transient response. And again, the HD800 and HD800s have the same power requirements as the HD600 and HD650 anyway, and thus the fact that the m9XX performs well with the HD800s, but not the HD650 is left unexplained.

Finally, the Asgard and the m9XX swing almost exactly the same voltage and the m9XX provides a tiny bit more current, yet you recommend the Asgard? Also I'd say from personal experience the Asgard is as bad of a match with the HD600 as the m9XX and Magni are. You just sound like you're repeating half understood semi-truths. And I say this as somebody who owns a world class OTC amp and would thus love to proudly say you're right. But you're not. There are benefits to OTC designs, but it's not "swings more voltage"

I'm not talking about transient response but the ability of the amp to deliver multiple voltages at once to power the bass and the rest of the frequency spectrum. Statistics don't really mean squat here as since the the Asgard 2's class A, no-overall feedback topology and power supply are infinitely superior (yeah this sounds nuts but they're just better) to the off the shelf  THS6012 used in the M9XX the numbers are incomparable. The Asgard 2 has better staging and more nimble bass with Sennheisers. It sounds like you just like the sound of OTLs with the 600 as the HD 600 does have upper mid bumps and a slightly low treble emphasis that can be annoying at times and most OTLs will "soften" the treble impact. Not the Valhalla 2 though.

 

[fjrabon]

I'm not talking about transient response but the ability of the amp to deliver multiple voltages at once to power the bass and the rest of the frequency spectrum. Statistics don't really mean squat here as since the the Asgard 2's class A, no-overall feedback topology and power supply are infinitely superior (yeah this sounds nuts but they're just better) to the off the shelf  THS6012 used in the M9XX the numbers are incomparable. The Asgard 2 has better staging and more nimble bass with Sennheisers. It sounds like you just like the sound of OTLs with the 600 as the HD 600 does have upper mid bumps and a slightly low treble emphasis that can be annoying at times and most OTLs will "soften" the treble impact. Not the Valhalla 2 though.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Valhalla is an overall better amp. But it just simply doesn't "swing more voltage" by any definition of the commonly understood meaning of "swing voltage". That is simply a measurable thing, and it's not true. Being zero feedback is definitely a plus. Being truly class A is a benefit (as opposed to the m9XX, which is just "usually" class A, but switches to A/B above 90). Valhalla also has a better power supply, which prevents power sag and DC bleed through better than the m9XX (which isn't a bad power supply though since it's all DC)

I think the Valhalla is in an awkward territory for the HD600/HD650. It's slightly better than amps like the m9XX, but not drastically so. You can go in three directions to get real improvement over the Valhalla/m9XX type level: starving student on steroids (lyr2 and comparable designs), OTC zero feedback on steroids (Torpedo, L2 and similar designs), and OTL on steroids (bottlhead mainline and similar designs). To me, there's simply no reason to buy a Valhalla for the HD600/HD650. If your budget is constrained there are much better values that perform about the same. If you can spend a bit more money, Lyr2 and BHC and BHML are large upgrades for the HD600/HD660.

 

[WilliamLeonhart]

The more I listen to the iDAC6, the more I'm absolutely certain the m9XX uses custom implementations of the four filters and NOT the ones AKM designed. The iDAC6 uses the five filters AKM designed, and the differences between the filters is MUCH MUCH MUCH larger than the difference in the m9XX's filters. The difference between super slow roll off and sharp roll off on the iDAC6 is like night and day, waaaaaaaay bigger than the difference in any of the filters on the m9XX. Super slow is sharp and in your face and has a lot of glare. Sharp roll off is relaxed, and booms, kind of like a vinyl setup through a very powerful tube amplifier.

Sounds interesting, but Cayin lost all my trust after I had a chance to audition the dreaded C5 and C6

 

[fjrabon]

Sounds interesting, but Cayin lost all my trust after I had a chance to audition the dreaded C5 and C6

Yeah, I guess my main point was to me it more or less confirms that the filters on the m9XX aren't those stock filters that are built in to the 4490 chip.

 

[WilliamLeonhart]

Oh I see. Sorry I got caught up in my negative feelings against Cayin.

 

[Psalmanazar]

Don't get me wrong, I think the Valhalla is an overall better amp. But it just simply doesn't "swing more voltage" by any definition of the commonly understood meaning of "swing voltage". That is simply a measurable thing, and it's not true. Being zero feedback is definitely a plus. Being truly class A is a benefit (as opposed to the m9XX, which is just "usually" class A, but switches to A/B above 90). Valhalla also has a better power supply, which prevents power sag and DC bleed through better than the m9XX (which isn't a bad power supply though since it's all DC)

I think the Valhalla is in an awkward territory for the HD600/HD650. It's slightly better than amps like the m9XX, but not drastically so. You can go in three directions to get real improvement over the Valhalla/m9XX type level: starving student on steroids (lyr2 and comparable designs), OTC zero feedback on steroids (Torpedo, L2 and similar designs), and OTL on steroids (bottlhead mainline and similar designs). To me, there's simply no reason to buy a Valhalla for the HD600/HD650. If your budget is constrained there are much better values that perform about the same. If you can spend a bit more money, Lyr2 and BHC and BHML are large upgrades for the HD600/HD660.

I thought the Lyr 2 was terrible and the Valhalla 2 is better in some ways than the Magni 2U/M9XX level of stuff but agree that finding actual upgrades without tradeoffs is hard. The Black WIdow and HDVA 600, the amps I heard that I really felt were a direct upgrade to the Asgard 2, are also a lot warmer while the Cavalli LIquid Carbon had better staging but was way too syrupy, the AGD stuff all suffered from Krell sound, and the Mjolnir 2/Moon Neo 430/Ragnarok all had upper mid/lower treble issues like the Valhalla. OTLs are always hazy or grainy somewhere.

 

[fjrabon]

I thought the Lyr 2 was terrible and the Valhalla 2 is better in some ways than the Magni 2U/M9XX level of stuff but agree that finding actual upgrades without tradeoffs is hard. The Black WIdow and HDVA 600, the amps I heard that I really felt were a direct upgrade to the Asgard 2, are also a lot warmer while the Cavalli LIquid Carbon had better staging but was way too syrupy, the AGD stuff all suffered from Krell sound, and the Mjolnir 2/Moon Neo 430/Ragnarok all had upper mid/lower treble issues like the Valhalla. OTLs are always hazy or grainy somewhere.

The other issue I have with the HD650/HD600 is that to really get them to perform their best, you're spending around $3000+ on an amp + DAC. And at that point a HD800 and m9XX (or HE560 or LCD 2.2f + Matrix HPA3B + MoMBy) are still going to mop the floor with any HD600/HD650 system. Buying a $2000 amp and a $2000 DAC for the HD600 seems silly to me, when there are way cheaper setups that get you out of mid-if purgatory and in the path of building a real end game setup. The Hd650 is great with a decent hybrid amp and mid level DAC, but then people go nuts with it. Just upgrade the headphone at that point.

 

[Psalmanazar]

The other issue I have with the HD650/HD600 is that to really get them to perform their best, you're spending around $3000+ on an amp + DAC. And at that point a HD800 and m9XX (or HE560 or LCD 2.2f + Matrix HPA3B + MoMBy) are still going to mop the floor with any HD600/HD650 system. Buying a $2000 amp and a $2000 DAC for the HD600 seems silly to me, when there are way cheaper setups that get you out of mid-if purgatory and in the path of building a real end game setup. The Hd650 is great with a decent hybrid amp and mid level DAC, but then people go nuts with it. Just upgrade the headphone at that point.

There is no upgrade. HD 800 tonality is still way off and diffuse even with mods. If somebody stuck the ring drivers in a better housing or Sennheiser made a new headphone around them rather than the "Let's add HD 650 amounts of bass distortion to attempt to fatten up the sound" HD 800 S then yeah there would be but there there isn't. I'm hoping the Focals are better yet with the measured FR, I'm not getting my hopes up. All the planars and electrostats are just terrible with staging, have upper mid and treble issues, and they get sustain 100% wrong so they just don't count at all.

 

[fjrabon]

There is no upgrade. HD 800 tonality is still way off and diffuse even with mods. If somebody stuck the ring drivers in a better housing or Sennheiser made a new headphone around them rather than the "Let's add HD 650 amounts of bass distortion to attempt to fatten up the sound" HD 800 S then yeah there would be but there there isn't. I'm hoping the Focals are better yet with the measured FR, I'm not getting my hopes up. All the planars and electrostats are just terrible with staging, have upper mid and treble issues, and they get sustain 100% wrong so they just don't count at all.

Just use a good 64 bit EQ program.

 

[FaezFarhan]

The other issue I have with the HD650/HD600 is that to really get them to perform their best, you're spending around $3000+ on an amp + DAC. And at that point a HD800 and m9XX (or HE560 or LCD 2.2f + Matrix HPA3B + MoMBy) are still going to mop the floor with any HD600/HD650 system. Buying a $2000 amp and a $2000 DAC for the HD600 seems silly to me, when there are way cheaper setups that get you out of mid-if purgatory and in the path of building a real end game setup. The Hd650 is great with a decent hybrid amp and mid level DAC, but then people go nuts with it. Just upgrade the headphone at that point.

I'm going to purchase the HD600 in a few days. Would this setup be good? M9XX -> Bottlehead Crack Speedball -> HD600? Bought/buying all of them without any demo. M9XX paid off, the other 2 I'm not too sure.

 

[Psalmanazar]

I'm going to purchase the HD600 in a few days. Would this setup be good? M9XX -> Bottlehead Crack Speedball -> HD600? Bought/buying all of them without any demo. M9XX paid off, the other 2 I'm not too sure.

Keep the M9XX, get the HD 600, and hold off on the Crack. M9XX's amp is good and sounds better than the still hazy/smokey sounding Speedball Crack.

 

[slex]

New grace look alike in da house!!

 

[FaezFarhan]

Keep the M9XX, get the HD 600, and hold off on the Crack. M9XX's amp is good and sounds better than the still hazy/smokey sounding Speedball Crack.

is there any under than $500 amp that will improve the HD600 over the amp on the M9XX?