[ruthieandjohn]

I did a quick try of iPhone vs. IPhone plus Chord Hugo (1) to my Technics A30 speakers (through my Technics amp), using my test piece "You're Gonna Miss Me When I'm Gone" by The Band of Heathens, on their One Foot In The Ether album, via lossless rip from CD.

Since it was a quick try, I didn't set things up to quickly switch from with to without the Hugo... I had to move from the listening spot to the Hugo to change connections, then move back, so there was perhaps 15 sec of delay between listens.

I could hear no difference on that song. I listened for approximately four of the 10 standard comparisons that I do (the others take different songs), and I heard no difference in any of the criteria (transparency, boom vs. pitch of bass drum, sound stage, or ability to distinguish direction of two closely-spaced musicians. All four tests were great, either through the iPhone 5S or through the iPhone 5S then Hugo.

 

[Music Alchemist]

I dunno what to tell you, man. Going from DACs under $200 to Chord DACs like the 2Qute and Mojo makes it seem like I'm listening to entirely different speakers. It's immediately obvious with any type of recording, and far more significant than the difference between, say, the HD 600 and HD 650. Lo-fi vs hi-fi in my book.

But since you don't hear a difference, like I said, I guess you don't need to worry about source components and can just get rid of everything but the basics in order to save money.

Or if you want to test further, try all types of music as I recommended.

http://www.musicgenreslist.com

 

[Testo]

I would suggest lossless versions of a wide variety of music. It is important to understand all strengths and weaknesses of the DAC you're testing.

 

[obobskivich]

I would suggest lossless versions of a wide variety of music. It is important to understand all strengths and weaknesses of the DAC you're testing.

And also have to realistic expectations for what a DAC (or digital source more broadly - by this I mean things like complete CD players) can and cannot do for you, sonically. Differences are generally very subtle and nuanced, not "smack you in the face with a fish" big. Especially when most DACs are targeting similar performance targets: low distortion, high SNR, linear/flat frequency response, etc.

 

[ruthieandjohn]

I have indeed been using lossless music, though not generally hi resolution...just 44.1 Ksample/sec CD rips (not digital downloads).

I think for me the differences between with and without Hugo are a long term cumulative effect. When I listen to an iPhone through the Hugo, I have the "feeling" that it is better, but I cannot put my finger on exactly why. Perhaps I am merely seduced by its beautiful case and shiny lights.

It is also interesting that so far, I have not received any specific recommendations of pieces of music that others have found sound different through different DACs, nor any indication of how they sound different. I HAVE gotten responses of "I can't hear a difference either" and "I hear clear differences on all music." Not much in between!

I do think that I should give a better effort to listening with speakers, as doing so amazed me with the great sound quality (but both with AND without the Hugo in the path). I have not yet made a fair effort to switch quickly or to explore various types and durations of music through speaker.

The other possibility is that my hearing has declined since I started doing critical listening about four years ago. I should go back and see if I still hear differences between with and without DAC in those cases where I heard a difference. The problem is, that I have used the iPhone or corresponding latest-generation iPod in those tests, and they have migrated to improved sound in the meantime, according to threads that have compared various generations of iPhones. I may have used an older version of iPhone software in the past (it was, however, the same four-year-old iPhone).

 

[Music Alchemist]

On a somewhat related note, here's a cool test you can try that isn't about DACs, but is about discerning differences in general.

Take a lossless file. Use a program like dBpoweramp or foobar2000 to convert it to various lossy MP3 bit rates, from 10 kbps to 320 kbps. The really low bit rates will have obviously destroyed sound quality, but once you get to 100 kbps, the differences from lossless become more subtle.

 

[harry501501]

You said it already... "most comparisons I have read in between the A4 and the Triple Driver, have the A4 coming out on top on almost everything, and I also have read that the Quad Driver is simply not worth the price jump with the Triple Drivers being the majority of what the Quad Drivers have to offer".

 

[ruthieandjohn]

I recently was directed to a review and test results of the iPhone 5 by Ken Rockwell, here: http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-5/audio-quality.htm

After pages of tests via music and test tones, listening and measurement plots, he summarizes his conclusions as follows:

Confirming what I hear with critical listening, the iPhone 5 is a wonderful high-fidelity audio source. While publications funded mostly by advertisements from makers of expensive cables, power conditioners and outboard DACs don't want you to know this, the iPhone 5 is a better audio source than most DACs will be when connected to a computer or CD transport. The only difference is that the iPhone has a level 6 dB lower than a proper CD player, but the iPhone still has more output at 1 V full-scale than some outboard audiophile DACs! (Stereophile wrote that "The iPod's measured behavior is better than many CD players" back when the iPod first came out and was only considered as a toy and not as a better player than most of the exotic fluff gear out today.)

The iPhone lacks a fan or hard drive, so it runs silently as it plays from its buffered solid-state memory.

The iPhone 5 has the additional benefits of being self-powered, so you have no ground loops as you will when using AC-powered gear or anything connected to a computer via a electrically conductive cable.

Ignore those who confuse the iPhone with crappy MP3 players; the iPhone has wonderful audio quality for serious music listening either directly with good or great headphones or plugged into the rest of your high fidelity system.
​

No WONDER I cannot hear a difference with my Hugo!

 

[Music Alchemist]

No WONDER I cannot hear a difference with my Hugo!

I think your statement is misleading. Just because you don't hear a difference doesn't mean others can't. Plenty of cheap DACs measure better than that. Countless audiophiles (including myself) think said cheap DACs sound utterly mediocre while Chord DACs sound amazing. And Chord DACs do measure many times better as well. I just wanted to emphasize all this again because most Chord owners do hear a significant difference.

 

[bixby]

In my many years of using phones as a source I can say they are fairly crappy as a transport even when used with a great dac. Any of my computer setups will beat my past flagship phones running through the same dac as the computer. As a standalone device most phones are good with very minor differences between them. Some like the iphone or the V10- V20 LGs are a step above many run of the mill phones with all the music processing on the same SOC used to run everything on the phone.

If you were to listen to my Chord Mojo on any good phone with OTG digital out you would hear a slight difference compared to straight HP out on the phone IF you were using high efficiency low impedance cans or iems. In terms of saying WOW that Mojo sure crushes the phone, Nope!

Now with a harder to drive can the Mojo will sound better and louder because it does not have an underpowered flea of an amp like a phone.

To really hear the subtle nuances of a dac you need a great transport (well sorted computer), full res files, excellent player and of course good cans. If you do this you will hear what the Mojo is capable of and it is significantly better than most entry level stuff I have reviewed or owned. A decent dac with a nice entry level amp like the Schiit Magni would make a very nice lower cost alternative in my opinion. I have a few dacs coming from China which I hope to report on in the next few weeks.

 

[ruthieandjohn]

@bixby , a most illuminating point you made... if the iPhone is "fairly crappy as a transport," then it would limit the quality of both paths I have been comparing (with vs. without Hugo), because both still come from the iPhone. So the Hugo would have zero to little effect... the determiner would be the crappy transport.

How can a transport, e.g., the iPhone, be crappy? What can go wrong? Not clock jitter... that is the DAC, right? Certainly not the amp...that is even further removed, on the other side of the DAC from the iPhone. I can try to compare transports instead of DACs.

As I understood it, the transport simply provides bits when called upon. Only error I can imagine would be bit errors, and they would be horrendous!

Nevertheless, I have other transports, e.g. the FiiO X5ii, the Lotoo PAW 5000 (I have the Lotoo Gold too, but it doesn't have digital out), or my HP Pavilion PC USB port. I can try to compare transports instead of DACs.

 

[bixby]

That is the commonly held position when investigating digital audio sources. Bits are bits and if something goes wrong you will hear a horrendous sound. But ah, bits are not the only thing impacting your sound.

I have heard numerous source setups, modded them, changed configs, power supplies, power conditioning, transport methods,etc and most have an effect. I cannot point you to a single concise article to help elucidate, but do check google, Computer audiophile, and other sites for info on computer transports. The differences that manifest themselves there also are somewhat reflective of what different phone platforms may exhibit. Remember most audio processing in a phone is done on a multipurpose SOC.

And if you really want to get into the weeds, read some technical papers from TI on designing digital audio circuits. You will see all sorts of warnings of sort on how to preserve the digital signal from harm, emi, rfi and noise.

good luck with the search.

Here I helped with the search.

https://www.audiostream.com/content/bits-are-bits-fallacy-and-noise-mixed-signal-systems

https://www.stereophile.com/features/396bits/index.html

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/art...he-sonic-differences-between-cd-transports-1/

https://laptop-test1.blogspot.com/2013/06/measurements-do-bit-perfect-digital.html

And remember almost all phones running standard Android or ios convert 16/44k files to 48k, hence a great chance to have something sound different than the original.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Ya know, that's a great point about the source. I actually use Windows Server 2016 Standard Core ($882 operating system with no GUI; just a command line interface, though I have it replaced by my player) and AudiophileOptimizer 2.20 Beta 5 (~$137 optimization software) on a laptop. With the Chord 2Qute (home system version of the Hugo), this dedicated dual boot operating system exclusively for audio sounded far better than normal Windows 7, 10, etc. (And yes, I always use bit-perfect output.) With the Chord Mojo, it's not as apparent, but still sounds better. And that's not even getting into real music servers and network players, which serious audiophiles swear by. (Here is one of many threads on the topic.) But some people may just not be able to hear the difference.

 

[bixby]

I wish someone in Denver would come over and bring their uber music player network player. I really have my doubts that it would be significantly better than a well oiled and tweaked pc.

You have to use the right type of oil, hahaha

 

[obobskivich]

Honestly I still disagree with the "big night and day differences" kind of argument. Differences between DACs, IME, are very subtle (if noticeable), and certainly can depend on what they're being "fed" (garbage in, garbage out) - that much I will agree with (although the necessity (or utility) of a server operating system for music listening is certainly something I'd question). Digital sources (or transports, or whatever else we want to call them), IME, certainly conform to "bits are bits" unless they're doing something beyond just outputting digital audio (e.g. they have DSP or EQ functionality - a good example of this would be a computer soundcard)., in which case they can absolutely make a big difference in sound. I'm also not at all surprised to see an iPhone measuring so well - quality digital equipment really doesn't have to cost a fortune (or require a PhD to set-up) these days, and has become increasingly pervasive/common to boot. Sure, it (along with most battery powered hardware) probably isn't the best choice for hard-to-drive loads, but that's a question of amplification, not sourcing, imho.