[Sarchi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fing /img/forum/go_quote.gif I hear people overcome the speaker problem by using more sensitive speakers. Most high efficiency speakers are rated at greater than 90db+ per watt at 1 metre. Of course, it does depend on the quality of that watt or watts. A lot of solid state watt is wasted on feedback and ensuring that it remains relatively free of distortions. Since tubes can handle distortion in a harmonic manner, they can be implemented in a feedback free manner. I'm not too hot on the electronic side of things All I know is that my 300B amp sounds fantastic and will blow the drivers out of my Monitor Audio speakers if I really cranked them up.

I disagree. There's a big difference between playing loud, and recreating a bass-driven scene like a dance club. I've owned (and built) many tube amps, from 3-watt 2A3's to the massive Altec 811 monoblocks of the 60's. And I've had speakers of average sensitivity all the way to 100+dB. It takes a massive amount of current for (as an example) Bob Marley to sound 'right' from speakers in home, and I haven't found tube amps up to that task. Except for some big Atma-sphere otl's, those are the only ones that come to mind. As I said, this is an unnatural thing anyway....it doesn't detract in any way from a tube amp's ability to do what it does do, well.

I hope that is helpful to the OP.

 

[nikongod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Melos (though hybrid) EAR HP4 Single Power amps are often said to be darn near the perfect headphone amps all around As for speaker amps...Wyetech will do anything and are built like tanks. The only loss one might take is in raw power when one deals with speakers, but then, one has the choice of the type of speaker as well. In the headphone world, tubes are not a tradeoff because barely any power is required to drive them. Choices, tube rolling etc, tube amps offer quite a bit more to a user than silicon mainly because opamp swapping is not as easy nor are the choices as large.

QFT.

FWIW, i think the SP bests the melos for most headphones save grados. for grados, there is a bit of a grey zone.

to re-ask the OP's question, in a slightly different way: what kinds of music are solid-state amps good for?

i can think of about as many as tube amps are good for. i am somewhere between a tube snob, and a music lover, so the answer varries from: virtually everything to almost nothing. it really depends on the amp, just like tube amps!

(but tubes are still better)

 

[Spareribs]

If you like pearl jam, you'll like tubes because their sound is pretty natural and tubes are good for natural sounds. That being said, solid state amps are also impressive too. I'm a tube guy though.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gundam91 /img/forum/go_quote.gif SS has been around for what, 30 some odd years? Tube based audio equipment did not simply become obsolete and vanish, but is still going strong.

Heh heh, how old are you?

It's been about 40-50 years, sometime in the 60's I think, and then transistor radio's took over the world

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Here we are - 1952 first transistorized radio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_radio

opamps (non-vacuum tube) were widely popularized by the late 60's

 

[gundam91]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Melos (though hybrid) EAR HP4 Single Power amps are often said to be darn near the perfect headphone amps all around

I've heard most of these. Nope, when I closed my eyes, I was still not convinced that Ella Fitzgerald was living in my head.

Maybe my Sennheisers are the weakest links?

Perfect? I don't think so. Single Powers are good amps, but just not my cup of tea. I had tried the MPX3(?) and they sounded too lean and somewhat bright.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for speaker amps...Wyetech will do anything and are built like tanks.

My current amp, the Pass X350.5 sounded darn good. When I turn the lights off, it is pretty convincing. But I still know that I am not listening to a live performance....

 

[gundam91]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fing /img/forum/go_quote.gif "Right sound" can be pretty easily assessed by going to an acoustic concert. Once you know what a violin or a trumpet or a drum sounds like, then you can hopefully tell how accurately it is reproduced when you hear it again via whatever electrical means you choose to listen to it.

Well, just as an example, a violin is not just a violin. I played violin when I was a kid. There are several classically-trained musicians in my family that plays professionally. My first violin was nothing special. It got me started. My second violin costed a lot more, and it sounded better. My brother has a nicer German violin that sounds a lot better than mine, but it does not sound remotely as good as a Stradivarius. (Actually, putting it in the same sentence with the Strad is plainly embarrasing) The violins also sound differently when I use different bows, and differently depends on what my mood was that day, whether I was tired or not. When my teacher played my violin, it sounded better than I could ever be.

The point is, there are a lot of variables there as well. And we haven't even discussed about acoustics at different concert halls, etc.

So when a designer picks something as a reference, he's already injected a bias as to what the "right sound" is.

OK, I think I've gone way too far from the original question. Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'll stop now. The key is to listen. Only you can determine whether you like the sound or not. And every amp will be different. I have heard tube amps that sound lean and thin and I have heard SS amps that sound warm, liquid, and involving.

 

[YZHI]

I go for tube amp mainlyy because it's capable of creating a sense of space and air, good for all kinds of music but particularly for lyrical stuff with a lush tone.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gundam91 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've heard most of these. Nope, when I closed my eyes, I was still not convinced that Ella Fitzgerald was living in my head. Maybe my Sennheisers are the weakest links? Perfect? I don't think so. Single Powers are good amps, but just not my cup of tea. I had tried the MPX3(?) and they sounded too lean and somewhat bright. My current amp, the Pass X350.5 sounded darn good. When I turn the lights off, it is pretty convincing. But I still know that I am not listening to a live performance....

Ah...you are speaking about perfect as in objective perfection, equality with the live performance. Well, certainly no amp is going to be perfect and no amp is necessarily the culprit either. Media used, the recording quality, the front-end, cables, transducers, stuff in between, not to mention the power (voltage drops etc).

What I was refering to was more in the realm that tubes can do whatever ss can do, and nearly vv. A tube amp can be fast, hard hitting providing PRaT along with some natural warmth and harmonics not to mention wonderful timbre and tone, instrument seperation and extension.

No doubt though, if you are truly looking for "the real" well, no amp (and no system) is there yet. In this regard, we all have to keep searching, spending and most importantly designing/inventing.

 

[dmk005]

This thread is very interesting and it leads me to many questions/notions:

Does a SS designer have more ultimate control over the sound signature versus a tub amp designer? In the end, don't the tubes themselves carry a great deal of the sound signature and by nature of the technology they are meant to last a limited length of time and are intended to be rolled? If all the characteristics of a tube amp are as close to perfect as possible, doesn't that mean the ONLY influence on the sound is the tubes? If this is true, a SS designer/manufacturer "tunes" his amps for a specific sound signature more so than a tube amp designer right? What is more difficult to build from scratch?

 

[YZHI]

I know one designer uses the tube approach for the ss and results in similar sound, I think it's colin sound lab in Taiwan.

 

[Zanth]

Tim Paravincini of E.A.R.-Yoshino fame says he can build any amp of any architecture to sound pretty well the same. Tube or SS it matters not to him. Roger Hebert of Wyetech Labs says the same thing.

What does happen though is the headroom tubes seem to be able to provide vs. silicon. Tubes can take more stress overall it seems and provide wider bandwidth at times. What tubes lack in absolute power (unless a ton are used) more than make up for it in other ways.

If a designer uses off the shelf tubes then they can build to a certain sound, then come the fans of tube rolling, they transform the sound by plopping in tubes of their choice. Some changes will be subtle others more dramatic. The same could be said about rolling opamps.

 

[Penchum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pearljam5000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sadly i haven't had a chance to listen to a tube amp yet....and i do not know how it sounds,i am saving money for an amp,and i cannot decide if i want SS or tubes. are tubes good for rock and metal?(that is what i listen to most)

To stick to your original question...I have found a tube headphone amp/pre-amp that sounds excellent for ROCK with the right tubes. It is the Little-Dot MKIVse. Go to their forum and look around a bit. Their new MK series is quite impressive for ALL type of music.

This is why I like tube headphone amps. The tubes give you an opportunity to change the outcome. The changes are different, not necessarily bad. As an example of this: If I want to listen to classical, out come my Mullard tubes! For anything else, my Tong-Sol tubes are really fine! If I'm in the mood for Jazz or Big Band, out come the Phillips tubes! Just being able to accommodate changes "I want" to the signal is worth consideration by everyone, IMHO.

 

[gundam91]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ah...you are speaking about perfect as in objective perfection, equality with the live performance. Well, certainly no amp is going to be perfect and no amp is necessarily the culprit either. Media used, the recording quality, the front-end, cables, transducers, stuff in between, not to mention the power (voltage drops etc).

You are correct! I subscribe to the idea that a good system need to faithfully reproduce a live event. We are not there yet, but with a little help (glass of wine + dimming the lights + some psychological reinforcement)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif What I was refering to was more in the realm that tubes can do whatever ss can do, and nearly vv. A tube amp can be fast, hard hitting providing PRaT along with some natural warmth and harmonics not to mention wonderful timbre and tone, instrument seperation and extension.

Agreed. That's why in my earlier statement I stated that there are always exceptions. My Consonance Cyber 20 uses EL84 tubes and it has that midrange bloom, and not so tight bass that we typically associate with tubes. The Cyber 30 which uses 2A3 tubes on the other hand has the speed and the tight bass that we typically associate with SS amps. If I were doing a blind test, I would swear that the Cyber 30 was an SS amp (when I was using the stock Sovtek tubes)