[ctsooner22]

Thanks for the answers guys it helps me understand. I haven't gotten any loudspeakers before, but will definitely look at Focal when I do. Their house sound seems right up my alley and if the headphones sound like that then I am even more interested in listening!

Dillan, when you look at speakers, there are a lot of great brands and sounds. I've owned many over the years.  Vandersteen, Focal, Proac are some awesome speakers that have been around for a long time, but are as good as most anything out there.  All three have totally different sounds.  
 
Being a newbie to personal audio, it's been a different ride for me trying to find a headphone that I love.  I have owned many top loudspeakers and I don't change often. I'm a Vandersteen guy now and about to move up to Quatro's.  It's the speed, vast soundstage if thats on the recording and the lush mids.  Bass is the most expensive thing in speakers, but in headphones I'm not sure it is.  When I say bass, I mean realistic levels, tight, in tune and proper dynamics compared to the rest of the spectrum.
 
I'm actually going somewhere with this, so thanks for bearing with me.  I'm trying to figure out HOW much I need to spend as well as what to get.  I'lll have an Ayre QX-5/Twenty DAC in August or so, once ESS comes out with their newest chip.  I'm already in the top of the queue to receive it after the world wide dealers get theirs.  The balanced headphone amp is supposed to be really really top notch and knowing Ayre (I have an AX-5/Twenty) it will be.  I won't spend more than 1500 or so be it new or used.  I've auditioned the LCD-2 and 3. I don't love the 2 so that's out.  The 3 is about 2 years old or so and it sounded nice, but it was running of the Decard DAC/AMP and I could tell it was limiting the cans (or at least I hope that was the cause).  
 
I've been told that the Ether is a can I need to audition, but I don't know how or where.  I have heard the original 800's and felt that they lacked in the bass.  It was great from the mid bass up.  I couldn't be happy over the long haul with those. I own a pair of Noble Savant's. They are balanced and nice.  I love them for portable listening, but I really want more and better bass.  I need the dynamics. I don't listen loudly at all any more, but when the music needs punch, I DO want that!  No, I don't want to have to compromise too much.  All audio is compromise regardless of the sandbox you get to play in.
 
These new Focal headphones have really piqued my curiosity. I think I'll be able to find a dealer locally to listen to them eventually (when will they be released into the wild and not just at a few shops?).  The Elear's will be the ones I'm looking at for cost reasons.  Listening to Judes introduction and reading this thread, I excited to hear these.  I wonder what they will sound like vs the Ether and the LCD-3?  I love the look of them and I'm sure they are more comfortable than the 3's which do get a bit heavy at times.
 
Just wondering if anyone has been able to listen to all three and what their personal differences are.  I can get a pair of 3's for cost/new or around 1200 on the used market, so the cost differences won't mean anything.  Thanks.

 

[bigfatpaulie]

He didn't say that....

 
That was the joke...
 
 

  To be fair, that's not what he said, but in any case...
 

 
It was a joke...
 

Not at all reading the actual words somebody wrote and then making a snarky comment.

Welcome to the Internet.

 
I'm glad you got that my comment was a joke - smiley face and all. 
 
 

  mmm......he didn't say that. Anyone with average comprehension skills knows that. Be that as it may, if Focal was able to somehow replicate the experience of listening to their speakers on a "mere" headphone, given the limitations of a "mere" headphone, I think that it would be an a huge positive for the Utopia. i look forward to receiving my Utopia in a couple of weeks and pass judgment on the claims of Focal.

 
 
Again.  It was a joke...
 
 
It's a headphone thread people - I was unaware that we had to be in 'only serious speculation mode'.  It's all good. 

 

 

[shockwaver]

Do you think any hp with -5db at 10hz is worth 4k? Just curious

 

[bfreedma]

Do you think any hp with -5db at 10hz is worth 4k? Just curious

 
Do you think that any headphone is producing something audible at 10hz?
 
10hz is in the tactile range, not the audible range.  If you need proof, find someone with a very good subwoofer (or better, multiple good subwoofers) and play a 10hz tone.

 

[shockwaver]

Do you think that any headphone is producing something audible at 10hz?

10hz is in the tactile range, not the audible range.  If you need proof, find someone with a very good subwoofer (or better, multiple good subwoofers) and play a 10hz tone.

i think the slightly rolledoff bass has something to do with its
completely open design.
however at this high price flatter bass response would be expected and desirable.

 

[bfreedma]

i think the slightly rolledoff bass has something to do with its
completely open design.
however at this high price flatter bass response would be expected and desirable.

 
What difference is the bass response at levels below the human hearing threshold?  That certainly doesn't influence my view of the Utopia.
 
It's the same in the treble region, where people think an advertised response of 40khz is not as good as 50khz despite the reality that they can't hear at 20khz (unless they are very young).

 

[WhatToChoose]

i think the slightly rolledoff bass has something to do with its
completely open design.
however at this high price flatter bass response would be expected and desirable.

The range of human hearing is 20 hz to 20khz. 10 hz is less than 20 hz, so you would not be able to hear it. Search a 10hz tone online, and you'll understand. I am not sure if 10hz makes a physical difference when you are lstening to music, but based on listening to a 10hz tone, that wouldn't be feasible.

 

[shockwaver]

The range of human hearing is 20 hz to 20khz. 10 hz is less than 20 hz, so you would not be able to hear it. Search a 10hz tone online, and you'll understand. I am not sure if 10hz makes a physical difference when you are lstening to music, but based on listening to a 10hz tone, that wouldn't be feasible.

I wanted to address the rolled off bass not particularly 10hz sound.

 

[Dillan]

Random question.. can you feel some frequencies that you cannot hear?

 

[Sophonax]

  I'm also not completely sold yet on the high excursion motor design... Also, long voice coils tend to have significantly higher inductance, increasing inductance related distortion and reducing upper end extension/sensitivity.

 
It's an interesting point -- but the long voice coil doesn't necessarily have to be related to the high excursion. Focal could have pursued an underhung voice coil and shortened it, but they would have needed a former to do that, and they decided to go with a formerless coil instead to save mass. Everything is a trade-off.
 
Jude posted an impedance measurement plot for the Utopia and Elear a few pages back -- given the impedance at the higher frequencies, it doesn't look like there's any significant problems with high inductance. You'd expect to see a rise in impedance there if that was the case.
 

 
 
And a look at an HD800 impedance plot for comparison:
 

 

[bfreedma]

  Random question.. can you feel some frequencies that you cannot hear?

 
Yes.  Pretty much anything under 16hz for most people.
 
The problem is, no headphone is going to move enough air to make a sub 16hz signal tactile.  If you're hearing something, it's the higher hz harmonics.  If you're feeling something, then your headphones are playing so loudly that you most likely are feeling your eardrum rupture.

 

[npdang]

   
It's an interesting point -- but the long voice coil doesn't necessarily have to be related to the high excursion. Focal could have pursued an underhung voice coil and shortened it, but they would have needed a former to do that, and they decided to go with a formerless coil instead to save mass. Everything is a trade-off.
 
Jude posted an impedance measurement plot for the Utopia and Elear a few pages back -- given the impedance at the higher frequencies, it doesn't look like there's any significant problems with high inductance. You'd expect to see a rise in impedance there if that was the case.
 

 
 
And a look at an HD800 impedance plot for comparison:
 

 
Thanks for sharing, that is a very impressively flat impedance plot and a dream for any OTL amp users.  It also seems that there might be a small notch/ripple at ~4khz for both cans... I'm wondering if that's some type of surround edge resonance or reflection?  I see it on almost every headphone impedance plot.
 
I also notice that the driver resonance for the Focal cans are over an octave lower than the HD800's...

 

[fjrabon]

The range of human hearing is 20 hz to 20khz. 10 hz is less than 20 hz, so you would not be able to hear it. Search a 10hz tone online, and you'll understand. I am not sure if 10hz makes a physical difference when you are lstening to music, but based on listening to a 10hz tone, that wouldn't be feasible.

even if 10Hz had some theoretical effect, audio engineers filter it out 99.99% of the time in the first place.  So, it's not even there to begin with.  Plus low tones aren't like high tones, where even if there are no 16kHz fundamentals in music, 16kHz makes up part of the harmonic pallette of a 2,4 and 8kHz tone.  If 10Hz isn't around as a fundamental, it isnt there at all.

 

[bfreedma]

 
even if 10Hz had some theoretical effect, audio engineers filter it out 99.99% of the time in the first place.  So, it's not even there to begin with.  Plus low tones aren't like high tones, where even if there are no 16kHz fundamentals in music, 16kHz makes up part of the harmonic pallette of a 2,4 and 8kHz tone.  If 10Hz isn't around as a fundamental, it isnt there at all.

 
Additionally, other than a few Pipe Organ's or Synthesizer's lowest and rarely used notes, there aren't many (any?) instruments capable of a 10hz fundamental.

 

[fjrabon]

   
Additionally, other than a few Pipe Organ's or Synthesizer's lowest and rarely used notes, there aren't many (any?) instruments capable of a 10hz fundamental.

yeah, about the only instance of 10Hz being in music I know of is electronic dance music producers making one with their computer to beef up the floor feel of dance music