[makne]

If anyone can point out a track or two where this so-called dip is in evidence, I'd love to hear it. I'm yet to hear anything of the sort with the Elear. Then again I don't have golden ears, and dislike brightness of any sort, so perhaps I perceive a dip in the upper mids/lower treble as a 'sweet spot' for my ears.

Pretty much anything with vocals, there’s some «edge» lacking in people’s voices. A good example is Mark Knopfler’s vocal in Dire Straits, if you switch between the Elear and another headphone it becomes very obvious (at least to me)

 

[dontfeedphils]

Pretty much anything with vocals, there’s some «edge» lacking in people’s voices. A good example is Mark Knopfler’s vocal in Dire Straits, if you switch between the Elear and another headphone it becomes very obvious (at least to me)

I noticed it pretty easily on pretty much any track off Rumors.

 

[gLer]

Pretty much anything with vocals, there’s some «edge» lacking in people’s voices. A good example is Mark Knopfler’s vocal in Dire Straits, if you switch between the Elear and another headphone it becomes very obvious (at least to me)

Thanks, I’ll give that a listen and report back here...although I’m pretty sure Mark Knopfler’s voice isn’t quite upper midrange...?

 

[gLer]

I noticed it pretty easily on pretty much any track off Rumors.

I’ll give this a try as well. One of my favourite albums. Will do a three-way between the Elear/Atticus/LCD-3.

 

[makne]

Thanks, I’ll give that a listen and report back here...although I’m pretty sure Mark Knopfler’s voice isn’t quite upper midrange...?

A human voice covers a pretty broad range of frequencies. The slight rasp in his voice, the «edge» and «texture» is just a little blurred and smoothed over on the Elear. If I listen to the Elear for long enough my ears can adjust to it and it will no longer bother me, but it becomes very obvious once I go back to something like the Clear

 

[gLer]

A human voice covers a pretty broad range of frequencies. The slight rasp in his voice, the «edge» and «texture» is just a little blurred and smoothed over on the Elear. If I listen to the Elear for long enough my ears can adjust to it and it will no longer bother me, but it becomes very obvious once I go back to something like the Clear

Ok, typing this as I listen so it's a bit SoC. I think I'm picking up what you're describing. It's not that vocals are recessed, but rather some of the nuances in the texture/peaks are presented differently on the Elear, at least from the LCD-3 and Atticus (and I would imagine differently from the Clear by what you're saying). Whereas the vocals on Dire Straits' Brothers In Arms are distinct and forward on all three headphones (and actually best separated from the mix and most forward on the Elear), where the Atticus and especially the LCD-3 describes every ridge and trough in the voice, the Elear gives it a light gloss. The detail is still mostly there, but it's smoother, less 'grating'. If I stop concentrating just on the vocals and take in the track as a whole it's less noticeable, but it's definitely there. Same with Fleetwood Mac's 'Dreams' off the Rumours album. Vocals are the most forward and distinct on the Elear, but are also a touch smoother and less 'pitchy' compared to the LCD-3, which gives you every spick and speck on the recording, and the Atticus, which is somewhere in the middle. It's an interesting exercise actually, because when I pull back and take in the whole song, I notice a few things aside from the vocals. For example, the kick drums on the Elear really do have more punch than the LCD-3 or (surprisingly) the Atticus. The instruments are also more dynamic and 'closer' on the Elear, whereas one the LCD-3 they're part of a wider, more mesmerising web of sound that makes the LCD-3 what it is. Again the Atticus splits the difference while sounding warmer than either.

The one advantage of 'taking the edge' off some of the higher vocal ridges is the absolute lack of sibilance on the Elear. I can see why you'd appreciate the extra detail in the vocals, but should the vocals be any brighter or poorly recorded (try any Queen song off their Innuendo album for example), the Elear more than any other headphone I've heard presents the least sibilant and most enjoyable version of those songs, especially as you crank up the volume. I'm only guessing here, but would you agree that the Clear is a less forgiving headphone of poor (and sibilant) recordings than the Elear? That's certainly the case with the more neutral and resolving Auteur, so I can only think the same applies to the Clear. Oddly, the LCD-3 seems to always steer just to the safe side of the sibilance line, no matter how poor the recording, which probably speaks to the smoothness and linearity of its sound sig. The Clear, while possibly having an edge on the LCD-3's clarity given the responses above, likely does so at a cost - if you're particualrly sensitive to brightness/harshness.

So can the Elear's 'dip' ever be considered an advantage? Probably not if you're an objectivist seeking the final word in definition and clarity no matter the cost. That's why the Utopia exists. Probably yes if you prefer a slightly warmer, less fatiguing, and never sibilant sound, no matter how loud your turn up the volume.

The Clear, from what I've read and what I've learned from this little exercise, likely sits between the two Focals (duh!), being at the same time more resolving than the Elear but less so than the Utopia, but also less forgiving and more balanced across the spectrum than the Elear - which necessarily means less bass and more treble, with more detail in both but at the expense of less punch and a higher risk of harshness/sibilance on poorer recordings at higher volumes.

 

[Phronesis]

^ Some good points here. I do think that which headphone sounds (subjectively) "best" is a function of the track and its recording quality and mix, my mood, etc. I haven't run across a headphone that I consider to be best across all tracks and conditions, and I do see how the Elear could be preferred over the Clear for some tracks and listeners. Having more headphones allows some flexibility in fitting headphones to tracks, but perhaps there's such a thing as having too many headphones.

 

[gLer]

^ Some good points here. I do think that which headphone sounds (subjectively) "best" is a function of the track and its recording quality and mix, my mood, etc. I haven't run across a headphone that I consider to be best across all tracks and conditions, and I do see how the Elear could be preferred over the Clear for some tracks and listeners. Having more headphones allows some flexibility in fitting headphones to tracks, but perhaps there's such a thing as having too many headphones.

Completely agree. I currently have 3 (plus my IEMs and dap for travel), which usually means one (expensive) headphone is often left unused for long periods (currently the Atticus). So I’m looking to offload one of the Atticus or Elear and leaning towards keeping the Elear for its superb synergy with the R-28. One day when I try the Clear I’ll hear for myself if my suspicion of it being too bright or too thin (for my taste) is correct, and if not, it may well replace the Elear as my daily. The LCD-3 is going nowhere (despite me listing it with the crazy idea of swapping it out for an Auteur).

 

[xenithon]

One needs to consider a person's hearing ability in the context of how a headphone is perceived and its ultimate characteristic. This is sometimes (more often than one may think actually) what results in people having quite differing opinions on a headphone, its strengths and weaknesses, and whether they like it.

To my ears, for example, the Elear is astoundingly dynamic - both more intimate and "in your face". So while the level of detail retrieval may be on par, less, or more than another headphone it is being compared to, the Elear comes across as both more energetic and forceful. And in the long run, this can lead to fatigue.

Back to my point on hearing capabilities - I am quite sensitive to high frequencies. I have a dip in hearing in the upper mids / treble (around 6-8kHz). What that means is that the sensitivity ramps up sharply above that, hence the potential for fatigue. Combine this with the midrange / lower treble dip in the Elear, it makes that "trough" far deeper and the contrast of the upper treble even more stark.

What it also means is that other headphones, albeit possibly known for having more treble energy, are less fatiguing because of the relative flatness of their frequency response (e.g., an EQ'd HD800). What this may also mean is that something like the Clear, although it in theory has more treble energy and thinner mids, may sound more balanced and less fatiguing - especially during long listening sessions.

 

[makne]

Ok, typing this as I listen so it's a bit SoC. I think I'm picking up what you're describing. It's not that vocals are recessed, but rather some of the nuances in the texture/peaks are presented differently on the Elear, at least from the LCD-3 and Atticus (and I would imagine differently from the Clear by what you're saying). Whereas the vocals on Dire Straits' Brothers In Arms are distinct and forward on all three headphones (and actually best separated from the mix and most forward on the Elear), where the Atticus and especially the LCD-3 describes every ridge and trough in the voice, the Elear gives it a light gloss. The detail is still mostly there, but it's smoother, less 'grating'. If I stop concentrating just on the vocals and take in the track as a whole it's less noticeable, but it's definitely there. Same with Fleetwood Mac's 'Dreams' off the Rumours album. Vocals are the most forward and distinct on the Elear, but are also a touch smoother and less 'pitchy' compared to the LCD-3, which gives you every spick and speck on the recording, and the Atticus, which is somewhere in the middle. It's an interesting exercise actually, because when I pull back and take in the whole song, I notice a few things aside from the vocals. For example, the kick drums on the Elear really do have more punch than the LCD-3 or (surprisingly) the Atticus. The instruments are also more dynamic and 'closer' on the Elear, whereas one the LCD-3 they're part of a wider, more mesmerising web of sound that makes the LCD-3 what it is. Again the Atticus splits the difference while sounding warmer than either.

The one advantage of 'taking the edge' off some of the higher vocal ridges is the absolute lack of sibilance on the Elear. I can see why you'd appreciate the extra detail in the vocals, but should the vocals be any brighter or poorly recorded (try any Queen song off their Innuendo album for example), the Elear more than any other headphone I've heard presents the least sibilant and most enjoyable version of those songs, especially as you crank up the volume. I'm only guessing here, but would you agree that the Clear is a less forgiving headphone of poor (and sibilant) recordings than the Elear? That's certainly the case with the more neutral and resolving Auteur, so I can only think the same applies to the Clear. Oddly, the LCD-3 seems to always steer just to the safe side of the sibilance line, no matter how poor the recording, which probably speaks to the smoothness and linearity of its sound sig. The Clear, while possibly having an edge on the LCD-3's clarity given the responses above, likely does so at a cost - if you're particualrly sensitive to brightness/harshness.

So can the Elear's 'dip' ever be considered an advantage? Probably not if you're an objectivist seeking the final word in definition and clarity no matter the cost. That's why the Utopia exists. Probably yes if you prefer a slightly warmer, less fatiguing, and never sibilant sound, no matter how loud your turn up the volume.

The Clear, from what I've read and what I've learned from this little exercise, likely sits between the two Focals (duh!), being at the same time more resolving than the Elear but less so than the Utopia, but also less forgiving and more balanced across the spectrum than the Elear - which necessarily means less bass and more treble, with more detail in both but at the expense of less punch and a higher risk of harshness/sibilance on poorer recordings at higher volumes.

Well you could say that the Clear is a little less forgiving of recording harshness than the Elear, since the Elear is warmer. But the Clear is still not even close to being as harsh and fatiguing as for example a HD800S or anything Beyer.

Tbh, I think there are better ways to create a warm and fatigue-free sound than to have such a massive dip in the 3-5kHz region. In fact, I’ve seen many people complaining that this dip makes the Elear more shouty and actually MORE fatiguing.
I do agree that a warm tonality can be a strength depending on personal taste and the recording/genre you’re listening to, but I wouldn’t say that the Elear’s massive 4k dip can be considered a strength. Imo, and according to a lot of other people across forums and from reviews, it is the Elear’s biggest weakness

 

[gLer]

Well you could say that the Clear is a little less forgiving of recording harshness than the Elear, since the Elear is warmer. But the Clear is still not even close to being as harsh and fatiguing as for example a HD800S or anything Beyer.

Tbh, I think there are better ways to create a warm and fatigue-free sound than to have such a massive dip in the 3-5kHz region. In fact, I’ve seen many people complaining that this dip makes the Elear more shouty and actually MORE fatiguing.
I do agree that a warm tonality can be a strength depending on personal taste and the recording/genre you’re listening to, but I wouldn’t say that the Elear’s massive 4k dip can be considered a strength. Imo, and according to a lot of other people across forums and from reviews, it is the Elear’s biggest weakness

I still think this whole ‘dip’ issue is being overplayed. It’s probably there, but it’s not massive or even obvious unless you’re listening out for it. Maybe my perception is different because of my hearing and using the Dekoni pads (which smooth out the transition between bass and mids) - likelya combination of both. But at the same time, even if we agree that it’s a weakness in some cases, I think the strengths of the Elear are underplayed as much as its weaknesses are overplayed. To the point where it’s added punch and dynamism even over the Clear are often overlooked.

The Clear may well be an improvement, but I’d wager it’s a subtle improvement at best, especially if there’s little improvement in soundstage, which is the Achille’s Heel of these headphones for me. Whether or not that’s worth twice the asking price is up to the buyer to decide I guess. At full price I’d get an Auteur over the Clear every time for build quality and comfort alone - neither of which the Elear or Clear get full marks in.

 

[makne]

I still think this whole ‘dip’ issue is being overplayed. It’s probably there, but it’s not massive or even obvious unless you’re listening out for it. Maybe my perception is different because of my hearing and using the Dekoni pads (which smooth out the transition between bass and mids) - likelya combination of both. But at the same time, even if we agree that it’s a weakness in some cases, I think the strengths of the Elear are underplayed as much as its weaknesses are overplayed. To the point where it’s added punch and dynamism even over the Clear are often overlooked.

The Clear may well be an improvement, but I’d wager it’s a subtle improvement at best, especially if there’s little improvement in soundstage, which is the Achille’s Heel of these headphones for me. Whether or not that’s worth twice the asking price is up to the buyer to decide I guess. At full price I’d get an Auteur over the Clear every time for build quality and comfort alone - neither of which the Elear or Clear get full marks in.

The Dekoni pads probably have an effect yeah, I think I remember someone from the Elear thread that recommended them especially for lessening the 4k dip.

It’s not being overplayed, if you look at measurements for example you can see it is quite a huge valley from 3-5kHz. But like I said, if you don’t hear it or aren’t bothered about it (a lot of people like the Elear), then great! But the issues are definitely there.

In terms of dynamics and impact, yeah the Elear has more slam, much because of the midbass I think. The Clear has a «cleaner» feeling imo, where microdynamics is more evident and the sound feels more «tactile».

Anyway, I don’t think there’s any point in us discussing the elear vs clear anymore before you actually listen to the Clear.

 

[gLer]

^^cometely agree. Next step is a Clear listen, then we can splice it up

 

[Phronesis]

One needs to consider a person's hearing ability in the context of how a headphone is perceived and its ultimate characteristic. This is sometimes (more often than one may think actually) what results in people having quite differing opinions on a headphone, its strengths and weaknesses, and whether they like it.

To my ears, for example, the Elear is astoundingly dynamic - both more intimate and "in your face". So while the level of detail retrieval may be on par, less, or more than another headphone it is being compared to, the Elear comes across as both more energetic and forceful. And in the long run, this can lead to fatigue.

Back to my point on hearing capabilities - I am quite sensitive to high frequencies. I have a dip in hearing in the upper mids / treble (around 6-8kHz). What that means is that the sensitivity ramps up sharply above that, hence the potential for fatigue. Combine this with the midrange / lower treble dip in the Elear, it makes that "trough" far deeper and the contrast of the upper treble even more stark.

What it also means is that other headphones, albeit possibly known for having more treble energy, are less fatiguing because of the relative flatness of their frequency response (e.g., an EQ'd HD800). What this may also mean is that something like the Clear, although it in theory has more treble energy and thinner mids, may sound more balanced and less fatiguing - especially during long listening sessions.

Agreed.

Due to variations in our ears and brains, we all hear differently. When someone says "the Clear sounds like X," it can't viewed as an objective description of the sound, but rather more like "I recall my perception of the sound of the Clear being X." Our perceptions and recollections may subjectively seem crystal clear and unambiguous, but they're ultimately constructs of our minds (drawing on the sense data of the sound) which vary from one person to another.

Moreover, our own perceptions and recollections can vary over time for a given person. When I listen to the LCD-3 for a while on its own, it sounds good. When I alternate between the LCD-3 and i4, both sound good. When I alternate between the Clear and LCD-3, the Clear initially sounds a bit thin and the LCD-3 a bit muddy and congested, but those effects diminish with more listening. When I alternate between the Clear and i4, both sound good.

With respect to fatigue, from my initial listening I expected the Clear and Utopia to be fatiguing, but I found neither to be fatiguing even after hours of continuous listening, so initial perceptions of "brightness" may not be a reliable indicator of fatigue potential.

 

[Ken G]

Ask and you shall receive....Elex pads are on Massdrop. Obviously can be used as Clear replacements if you are ok bringing dark grey into the color pattern. $60.

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/focal-...ontent=1535090948200.123454484605017057051639