[Heyyoudvd]

I’m curious, has anyone done a comparison between the Bathys and all of Focal’s wired closed backs?

How do the Bathys, Elegia, Celestee, Radiance, and Stellia compare in build, isolation, and of course, sound?

 

[evhvis]

I’m curious, has anyone done a comparison between the Bathys and all of Focal’s wired closed backs?

How do the Bathys, Elegia, Celestee, Radiance, and Stellia compare in build, isolation, and of course, sound?

Doubt anyone has heard all of them. I own the Radiance and Elear (which I use with Elex pads) out of the full size ones and the bathys.

Radiance has slightly better passive isolation in the higher frequencies, but lacks ANC so lower frequencies are easily heard. Build quality is good on both, but materials quality and comfort is on another level on the radiance. The build quality on the Bathys look worse than it actually is due to the finish and design.

The Radiance is pretty close to harman curve, but is a bit subdued in the lower treble and upper midrange, which give a warmer and more relaxed sound (for some it will be too relaxed). The Bathys seems to be very dependent on the person's head and for me they are a bit too low level in the midrange with some peaks that are probably in the 4k to 7k area which can cause them to sound a bit bright and harsh on some material. Overall the midrange and timbre are strengths of the Radiance while they are the main weaknesses of the Bathys. The Radiance has more resolution, especially when it comes to small nuances from instruments, small pitch changes in voices, harmonics etc. They both have fairly good imaging, but only decent soundstage (fairly small).

If the Bathys had the sound quality of the Radiance, then I don't think the PX8 vs Bathys debate would even exist. Listening for 1-2 hours to the Radiance on decent amplification and then switching to the Bathys over USB makes me wonder what is wrong with the Bathys (disappointment). If I go a few hours without listening and then pick up the Bathys then they are fairly good sounding headphone, but with some flaws. It is important to A/B headphones directly after one another as sound memory can be very short term and you may remember something as better or worse than it actually is if you wait a few hours or days.

Basically I find the step down from the Radiance to Bathys to be quite significant, but the Bathys is fairly good as an overall package and priced fairly IMO. With the Bathys you get wireless and wired with a built in DAC of decent quality in one travel friendly package. Even my travel setup for the Radiance is more then twice the price of the Bathys due to needing a DAC with amp, adapters etc. and running a desktop setup makes the price ratio even worse.

 

[GungJoe]

Doubt anyone has heard all of them. I own the Radiance and Elear (which I use with Elex pads) out of the full size ones and the bathys.

Radiance has slightly better passive isolation in the higher frequencies, but lacks ANC so lower frequencies are easily heard. Build quality is good on both, but materials quality and comfort is on another level on the radiance. The build quality on the Bathys look worse than it actually is due to the finish and design.

The Radiance is pretty close to harman curve, but is a bit subdued in the lower treble and upper midrange, which give a warmer and more relaxed sound (for some it will be too relaxed). The Bathys seems to be very dependent on the person's head and for me they are a bit too low level in the midrange with some peaks that are probably in the 4k to 7k area which can cause them to sound a bit bright and harsh on some material. Overall the midrange and timbre are strengths of the Radiance while they are the main weaknesses of the Bathys. The Radiance has more resolution, especially when it comes to small nuances from instruments, small pitch changes in voices, harmonics etc. They both have fairly good imaging, but only decent soundstage (fairly small).

If the Bathys had the sound quality of the Radiance, then I don't think the PX8 vs Bathys debate would even exist. Listening for 1-2 hours to the Radiance on decent amplification and then switching to the Bathys over USB makes me wonder what is wrong with the Bathys (disappointment). If I go a few hours without listening and then pick up the Bathys then they are fairly good sounding headphone, but with some flaws. It is important to A/B headphones directly after one another as sound memory can be very short term and you may remember something as better or worse than it actually is if you wait a few hours or days.

Basically I find the step down from the Radiance to Bathys to be quite significant, but the Bathys is fairly good as an overall package and priced fairly IMO. With the Bathys you get wireless and wired with a built in DAC of decent quality in one travel friendly package. Even my travel setup for the Radiance is more then twice the price of the Bathys due to needing a DAC with amp, adapters etc. and running a desktop setup makes the price ratio even worse.

I agree with this comparison with the Radiance but I do think the Bathys compete easily with the Celeste. Perhaps less detail but much better tonality and soundstage than the Celeste. Overall a much better listen for me than the Celeste (without EQ), but worse than the Radiance. I actually auditioned the Bathys side by side with the Celeste before deciding to purchase and the side-by-side convinced me that the Bathy's were worth the £700 price tag.

I also don't think that the Bathy's ever approach anything I would consider bright to me, if anything they hit a really nice sweet spot in the treble range sparkle without ever feeling fatiguing for me, not even slightly. I often fall alseep wearing my Bathys because I find them very relaxing to wear.

I don't think the PX8 and Bathy's should be in the same conversation for audio quality. I think if the PX8 wasn't priced similarly we wouldn't be drawing that comparison at all. I don't think the PX8 even outperform the Senheiser Momentum 4 overall. They have decent technical details for a bluetooth headphone but they are really all over the place tonally. I know that they vary a lot with their tonality depending on their positioning and seal, but even with a good seal the bass is overemphasised, midrange recessed and treble inconsistent. It's not a good or authentic presentation. I think they're so far removed in terms of overall sound quality that they really don't belong in the same conversation as the Bathys and ML 5909.

 

[Denkmal]

I agree with this comparison with the Radiance but I do think the Bathys compete easily with the Celeste. Perhaps less detail but much better tonality and soundstage than the Celeste. Overall a much better listen for me than the Celeste (without EQ), but worse than the Radiance. I actually auditioned the Bathys side by side with the Celeste before deciding to purchase and the side-by-side convinced me that the Bathy's were worth the £700 price tag.

I also don't think that the Bathy's every approach anything I would consider bright to me, if anything they hit a really nice sweet spot in the treble range sparkle without ever feeling fatiguing for me, not even slightly. I often fall alseep wearing my Bathys because I find them very relaxing to wear.

I don't think the PX8 and Bathy's should be in the same conversation for audio quality. I think if the PX8 wasn't priced similarly we wouldn't be drawing that comparison at all. I don't think the PX8 even outperform the Senheiser Momentum 4 overall. They have decent technical details for a bluetooth headphone but they are really all over the place tonally. I know that they vary a lot with their tonality depending on their positioning and seal, but even with a good seal the bass is overemphasised, midrange recessed and treble inconsistent. It's not a good or authentic presentation. I think they're so far removed in terms of overall sound quality that they really don't belong in the same conversation as the Bathys and ML 5909.

Well I own both PX8 and Bathys and could not disagree more. I think both headphones have qualities hard to find in any other ANC headphone today. Some things that Bathys do really well (e g soundstage), the PX8 cannot match, but other bits of the overall presentation I actually prefer with PX8 (timbre, thick and warm mids, smoother but still detailed treble). Not for all genres but enough to make it a diffferent experience. I do listen to a lot of 70s rock and also many female vocalists which sound amazing on the PX8. So for Led Zeppelin I reach for PX8 and for classical I probably prefer Bathys. Then there are many other parts of the overall package that PX8 does right and according to my particular preferences, including build quality, comfort, design, multipoint, ANC and portability which is all superior to Bathys imo.
I do get that the tuning and house sound of B&W is not for everyone but same goes for many premium headphones. I did listen to ML 5909 and immediately recognized the fantastic sound quality, but also realized that the tuning is not what I am looking for in a portable headphone. Sennheiser M4 is a good headphone that I can see people appreciate but to me it is just not up there with the more expensive headphones.

Bathys vs PX8 is not really a good comparison, it is like asking someone if they prefer bacon or ice cream… But all in all I couldnt pick only one so here I am loving them both

 

[evhvis]

I agree with this comparison with the Radiance but I do think the Bathys compete easily with the Celeste. Perhaps less detail but much better tonality and soundstage than the Celeste. Overall a much better listen for me than the Celeste (without EQ), but worse than the Radiance. I actually auditioned the Bathys side by side with the Celeste before deciding to purchase and the side-by-side convinced me that the Bathy's were worth the £700 price tag.

I also don't think that the Bathy's every approach anything I would consider bright to me, if anything they hit a really nice sweet spot in the treble range sparkle without ever feeling fatiguing for me, not even slightly. I often fall alseep wearing my Bathys because I find them very relaxing to wear.

I don't think the PX8 and Bathy's should be in the same conversation for audio quality. I think if the PX8 wasn't priced similarly we wouldn't be drawing that comparison at all. I don't think the PX8 even outperform the Senheiser Momentum 4 overall. They have decent technical details for a bluetooth headphone but they are really all over the place tonally. I know that they vary a lot with their tonality depending on their positioning and seal, but even with a good seal the bass is overemphasised, midrange recessed and treble inconsistent. It's not a good or authentic presentation. I think they're so far removed in terms of overall sound quality that they really don't belong in the same conversation as the Bathys and ML 5909.

The discussion exists because a lot of people feel they are competitors. Just because you don't like the PX8 doesn't mean that others do not like it. Both the Bathys and the PX8 are designs that have poor consistency and will sound different between ear shapes, head shapes, how they are worn etc. so what you hear might not be what the next person hears. I own both the PX8 and the Bathys and if I could only keep one of them then it would be the PX8 as it is the more complete ANC headphone and often the more enjoyable listen.

 

[GungJoe]

The discussion exists because a lot of people feel they are competitors. Just because you don't like the PX8 doesn't mean that others do not like it. Both the Bathys and the PX8 are designs that have poor consistency and will sound different between ear shapes, head shapes, how they are worn etc. so what you hear might not be what the next person hears. I own both the PX8 and the Bathy's and if I could only keep one of them then it would be the PX8 as it is the more complete ANC headphone and often the more enjoyable listen.

I wasn't saying that I don't think they are suitable competitors with any real intention to dissuade discussion or comparison between the two, only to reflect my opinion on the PX8, I don't think it's a good contender to the Bathy's or ML 5090 in regards to sound quality. Of course the price point invites that comparison and it's essential that we compre them if only to highlight the PX8 (in my opinion) does not deliver on the quality that a bluetooth headphone in that price bracket should deliver.

I think the price point inflates its perceived value and in reality the sound quality they output is more inline with items in the lower price regions (XM5 and Momentum 4 particularly). Again, in my opinion the PX8

A similar sentiment is expressed by Resolve.


I'll caveat this with the obvious, that when we're talking about subjective sound everyone has their own subjective experience that's informed by several factors, most of which are not an measurable constant between users. Yes the objective sound output by the headphones should always be the same, but the users expectation, tonal preferences and the users head size and shape all affect that perception. When those factors are combined, it's easy to understand how a user might have a completely different experience with the PX8 (or any headphone) which is equally valid.

With that said, and to reiterate, in my subjective experience the PX8 really sounds closer to an expensive XM5 than it does to the Bathy's or ML 5090. I don't like and I think my experiences with the PX8 align with recorded measurements from Resolve. That's my assessment, I'm not saying that to say that others should not like it.

 

[evhvis]

I wasn't saying that I don't think they are suitable competitors with any real intention to dissuade discussion or comparison between the two, only to reflect my opinion on the PX8, I don't think it's a good contender to the Bathy's or ML 5090 in regards to sound quality. Of course the price point invites that comparison and it's essential that we compre them if only to highlight the PX8 (in my opinion) does not deliver on the quality that a bluetooth headphone in that price bracket should deliver.

I think the price point inflates its perceived value and in reality the sound quality they output is more inline with items in the lower price regions (XM5 and Momentum 4 particularly). Again, in my opinion the PX8

A similar sentiment is expressed by Resolve.


I'll caveat this with the obvious, that when we're talking about subjective sound everyone has their own subjective experience that's informed by several factors, most of which are not an measurable constant between users. Yes the objective sound output by the headphones should always be the same, but the users expectation, tonal preferences and the users head size and shape all affect that perception. When those factors are combined, it's easy to understand how a user might have a completely different experience with the PX8 (or any headphone) which is equally valid.

With that said, and to reiterate, in my subjective experience the PX8 really sounds closer to an expensive XM5 than it does to the Bathy's or ML 5090. I don't like and I think my experiences with the PX8 align with recorded measurements from Resolve. That's my assessment, I'm not saying that to say that others should not like it.

The objective output is what is actually reaching the user's eardrum. If a headphone shows large variation in frequency response with placement, different ear sizes etc. then the objective sound output will vary lot with each user. Open back headphones generally have low variation, while a lot of closed back headphones have some variation and a few have very high variation. If a headphone varies with placement, slight changes in clamping pressure etc. then the objective conclusion would be that the sound will vary from user to user and that a single graph is only valid for a certain placement on a certain measurement rig, but is not necessarily representative for what the user will hear. The Bathys and the PX8 both vary in frequency response with different placements on my head and what I hear from the Bathys is not close to the graph presented by Resolve. Resolve also seems to be somewhat of an outlier compared to most other comparisons between Bathys and PX8.

 

[Denkmal]

I wasn't saying that I don't think they are suitable competitors with any real intention to dissuade discussion or comparison between the two, only to reflect my opinion on the PX8, I don't think it's a good contender to the Bathy's or ML 5090 in regards to sound quality. Of course the price point invites that comparison and it's essential that we compre them if only to highlight the PX8 (in my opinion) does not deliver on the quality that a bluetooth headphone in that price bracket should deliver.

I think the price point inflates its perceived value and in reality the sound quality they output is more inline with items in the lower price regions (XM5 and Momentum 4 particularly). Again, in my opinion the PX8

A similar sentiment is expressed by Resolve.


I'll caveat this with the obvious, that when we're talking about subjective sound everyone has their own subjective experience that's informed by several factors, most of which are not an measurable constant between users. Yes the objective sound output by the headphones should always be the same, but the users expectation, tonal preferences and the users head size and shape all affect that perception. When those factors are combined, it's easy to understand how a user might have a completely different experience with the PX8 (or any headphone) which is equally valid.

With that said, and to reiterate, in my subjective experience the PX8 really sounds closer to an expensive XM5 than it does to the Bathy's or ML 5090. I don't like and I think my experiences with the PX8 align with recorded measurements from Resolve. That's my assessment, I'm not saying that to say that others should not like it.

By your comparison of Px8 and XM5 it is clear we have very different ears…
Also Mr Resolve has been referred to multiple times for his way of declaring the Px8 outright unlistenable. Ok that is just not something most other people hear.
Happy new year etc

 

[GungJoe]

By your comparison of Px8 and XM5 it is clear we have very different ears…
Also Mr Resolve has been referred to multiple times for his way of declaring the Px8 outright unlistenable. Ok that is just not something most other people hear.
Happy new year etc

Happy new year to you too.

I think the most important thing in an audio review is getting a sense for how the reviewer hears more generally, what sound signatures they like and what they priorities in terms of a headphone. I think Resolve is one of the most popular headphone reviewers and his opinions on headphones are widely consistent with popular headphones in the community. On a personal level, his opinions on headphones usually align with my own, perhaps not to a level of detail where I have the same headphone tier list as Resolve, but definitely to an extent where if it sounds good to him it will sound good to me.

Also, from what I saw I don't think he classified the PX8 as unlistenable? He just doesn't think it's an audiophile grade headphone, and that's also perfectly fine honestly. Headphones like the XM5 are perfectly fine and they are listenable even if they don't lean towards my tuning preferences. To clarify though I don't think the PX8 sound the same as the XM5 (somewhat different tuning and significantly different in other technical details), but I think it has a very 'fun' or 'engaging' slant to its tuning that's typical of headphones like Sony's series. That type of tuning is generally not what I'm looking for as I don't find those to be fun or engaging, I find them to be bloated and unnatural. I think they have similar tonality especially in the bass and midrange.

The objective output is what is actually reaching the user's eardrum. If a headphone shows large variation in frequency response with placement, different ear sizes etc. then the objective sound output will vary lot with each user. Open back headphones generally have low variation, while a lot of closed back headphones have some variation and a few have very high variation. If a headphone varies with placement, slight changes in clamping pressure etc. then the objective conclusion would be that the sound will vary from user to user and that a single graph is only valid for a certain placement on a certain measurement rig, but is not necessarily representative for what the user will hear. The Bathys and the PX8 both vary in frequency response with different placements on my head and what I hear from the Bathys is not close to the graph presented by Resolve. Resolve also seems to be somewhat of an outlier compared to most other comparisons between Bathys and PX8.

Yeah. I was saying this though, or at least trying to. Either way on these details of how sound is subjectively experienced by the user, we definitely agree. I understand how things like headphone positioning can matter (though it also speaks a lot to the design of the headphone if it's difficult to get a consistent or accurate signature because they don't seal).

Anyway, just to quote what I wrote before.

"I'll caveat this with the obvious, that when we're talking about subjective sound everyone has their own subjective experience that's informed by several factors, most of which are not an measurable constant between users. Yes the objective sound output by the headphones should always be the same, but the users expectation, tonal preferences and the users head size and shape all affect that perception. When those factors are combined, it's easy to understand how a user might have a completely different experience with the PX8 (or any headphone) which is equally valid."

Also, this is just semantics and does not matter to our conversation but I think objective sound is what is output by the device, and not what reaches your eardrum. What reaches your inner ear is what is heard, but it's been altered from its objective sound. Sound is the vibration in the air which may or may not be perceived through hearing.

Just my understanding to lay things out for clarity
Source (headphones) > Sound > Distortion due to obstruction > Hearing > Cognitive Processing (mental models, expectation) > Subjective Experience > Cognition > Post about it on Head-fi

I don't allow my subjective experience of a headphone to be lead by a frequency graph, but I do use them to help me understand what I'm hearing. Resolves graph aligns with what I heard from the PX8.

As for resolve being an outlier. I don't think so, but I do get the impression that the assessments of the PX are all over the place. I hear some people really enjoying them, and others really disliking them. I think in general the sentiment towards the out of the box tuning is more polarising than on the Bathys. I have however heard that the PX8 can be saved for people that previously disliked them, with their EQ.

I'm generally quite anti-EQ but in anc headphones I think it's a suitable solution since they can never be parted from their built in DSP and therefore the EQ is always applied. Still, I'm just comparing my experience of the out of the box sound versus the Bathys and I didn't play around with the eq on the PX8.

 

[nunomeneses]

I owned both and just for aac on iPhone and iPad to my ears bathys is one step up on sound quality. When in aptx adaptive and usb dac then bathys is a big step up in sound quality because it doesn’t do much on px8 in comparison. I love both and I can say if I could only have one I would choose bathys for do it all, but if you have competent wired solution and want the best anc with sound quality maybe px8 is better option…

 

[Luke Skywalker]

I’m considering getting the ML 5909 as a second pair of nice sounding BT headphones. I’d also like to replace my Audeze LCD-2 with a Focal Utopia level TOTL headphone but unfortunately I have nowhere to audition near me. I hesitate to spend $4,000+ on something without even hearing it first but I’ll probably end up having to do that

 

[gryffe]

Still trying to broaden my knowledge of BT headphones due to being a "wired" veteran of almost 50 years. On this forum and others I've seen reference to DAC/amps such as FiiO BTR5 or 7. Would I be correct in saying that it works similarly to the likes of an iFi GO Bar or a Mojo 2, but also has the ability to connect wirelessly to a mobile phone via Bluetooth removing the need for wires? If so what are the benefits of having such a device and using with the Bathys?
I presume you are still limited to what Codec your mobile phone allows? eg I have a Samsung S22 + which means I cannot get LDAC or APT X HD or APT X Adaptive so I'm guessing that a device like FiiO BTR5 or 7 would not be able to magic these Codecs up for me?

Thanks. (also posted on the other headfi Bathys thread)

 

[vonBaron]

S22 should have LDAC, weird...

 

[nunomeneses]

Still trying to broaden my knowledge of BT headphones due to being a "wired" veteran of almost 50 years. On this forum and others I've seen reference to DAC/amps such as FiiO BTR5 or 7. Would I be correct in saying that it works similarly to the likes of an iFi GO Bar or a Mojo 2, but also has the ability to connect wirelessly to a mobile phone via Bluetooth removing the need for wires? If so what are the benefits of having such a device and using with the Bathys?
I presume you are still limited to what Codec your mobile phone allows? eg I have a Samsung S22 + which means I cannot get LDAC or APT X HD or APT X Adaptive so I'm guessing that a device like FiiO BTR5 or 7 would not be able to magic these Codecs up for me?

Thanks. (also posted on the other headfi Bathys thread)

Buy btd600

 

[gryffe]

S22 should have LDAC, weird...

I'm a total Codec numpty, never really used bluetooth much really. On my settings of the phone LDAC is listed as one of the options along with SBC, aptx etc, but I can never get it to select LDAC, it never changes from whatever codec I am currently using. Further down in the options list there is a category that says "Bluetooth audio LDAC codec Playback quality" but this is permanently greyed out.
Again apologies for showing lack of knowledge here, but as well as the Bathys I have Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless 3 and I dont think either of these support LDAC, and this was why I was asking the question if the FIIO BTR7 would provide LDAC even if the phone and/or headphone doesnt?