[nunomeneses]

I'm a total Codec numpty, never really used bluetooth much really. On my settings of the phone LDAC is listed as one of the options along with SBC, aptx etc, but I can never get it to select LDAC, it never changes from whatever codec I am currently using. Further down in the options list there is a category that says "Bluetooth audio LDAC codec Playback quality" but this is permanently greyed out.
Again apologies for showing lack of knowledge here, but as well as the Bathys I have Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless 3 and I dont think either of these support LDAC, and this was why I was asking the question if the FIIO BTR7 would provide LDAC even if the phone and/or headphone doesnt?

For a codec to work you have to have something encoding it (eg smartphone) and something decoding it (eg headphones) so if they don’t support both the codec it won’t work.

 

[ddlo]

I'm a total Codec numpty, never really used bluetooth much really. On my settings of the phone LDAC is listed as one of the options along with SBC, aptx etc, but I can never get it to select LDAC, it never changes from whatever codec I am currently using. Further down in the options list there is a category that says "Bluetooth audio LDAC codec Playback quality" but this is permanently greyed out.
Again apologies for showing lack of knowledge here, but as well as the Bathys I have Sennheiser Momentum True Wireless 3 and I dont think either of these support LDAC, and this was why I was asking the question if the FIIO BTR7 would provide LDAC even if the phone and/or headphone doesnt?

BTR7 has LDAC connection capability so if you connect your S22 to BTR7 (i'm using zfold4 and btr7 in LDAC too), you'll be able to go to the bluetooth setting page to turn on LDAC.

 

[gryffe]

BTR7 has LDAC connection capability so if you connect your S22 to BTR7 (i'm using zfold4 and btr7 in LDAC too), you'll be able to go to the bluetooth setting page to turn on LDAC.

Nice one, thanks for explanation. How do you find the BTR7, and have you any other headphone amp/dacs to compare it with?

 

[evhvis]

Also, this is just semantics and does not matter to our conversation but I think objective sound is what is output by the device, and not what reaches your eardrum. What reaches your inner ear is what is heard, but it's been altered from its objective sound. Sound is the vibration in the air which may or may not be perceived through hearing.

Just my understanding to lay things out for clarity
Source (headphones) > Sound > Distortion due to obstruction > Hearing > Cognitive Processing (mental models, expectation) > Subjective Experience > Cognition > Post about it on Head-fi

I don't allow my subjective experience of a headphone to be lead by a frequency graph, but I do use them to help me understand what I'm hearing. Resolves graph aligns with what I heard from the PX8.

As for resolve being an outlier. I don't think so, but I do get the impression that the assessments of the PX are all over the place. I hear some people really enjoying them, and others really disliking them. I think in general the sentiment towards the out of the box tuning is more polarising than on the Bathys. I have however heard that the PX8 can be saved for people that previously disliked them, with their EQ.

I'm generally quite anti-EQ but in anc headphones I think it's a suitable solution since they can never be parted from their built in DSP and therefore the EQ is always applied. Still, I'm just comparing my experience of the out of the box sound versus the Bathys and I didn't play around with the eq on the PX8.

The reason why we are disagreeing on what is objective is because we have different viewpoints on what is actually measured. The output of the device is not what is measured on any measurement rig for headphones, it is what reaches the ear (ear and ear canal is simulated on all proper measurement rigs). If you just sealed of the headphone and stuck a measurement microphone inside the earcup then you would get a completely different response. Changing the ears or ear canal will also cause changes to the sound. The amount of change depends quite a bit on the headphone design.

The driver itself produces sound, but what leaves the driver isn't the same as what reaches your ear. There will be changes from the headphone itself where the rear wall and pads make a large contribution. The pads can both absorb, let sound pass through and amplify frequencies, basically you see the results in pad rolling with measurements. In a a fully closed headphone the rear wall seals it off and causes pressure to build up in the headphone, while in most good closed back design the rear is vented to reduce the pressure at the cost of some noise isolation. To my knowledge all of Focal's closed back headphones are vented. The earcup is essentially an acoustic chamber. Changes to the acoustic chamber and distance between the ear and driver can impact the sound of the headphone. There is a reason for why the harman curve is only valid for one specific measurement rig setup as changing the ears or the ear canals on the rig will give different results and thus not be valid for the compensation curve. The amount of changes in results depends on the headphone design. Pad war can also influence sound so a headphone can significantly change measurement response between a fresh pair and one with worn out pads.

The earlobes and ear canal reflect sound so it hits your eardrum and their size and shape impacts the overall sound. Almost all sound you hear is reflections and what hits your ear drums is the objective sound from the headphones. There is no subjective evaluation of what is measured at the eardrum, however there will be individual variance du to design of headphones. Some headphones have very small variance while others would have very large. Subjective would be the cognitive processing of sound that hits the eardrum, objective would be measuring the sound that hits the eardrum. One measurement rig only measures what would hit your eardrum if you have the exact same head shape, ear canals and ears.

When having trouble getting consistent measurements then one should take multiple graphs and publish them all as they are possible versions of the headphone sound. Tyll from innerfidelity used to publish an average along with all the measurements laid on top of each other and rtings.com actually takes measurements from test subjects to show how consistent or inconsistent a headphone is. Those are actually very important measurements. Both sets of measurements in the two graphs below are taken on GRAS 043AG so should be comparable.

These graphs are VSG28 from techpowerup, which had large issues getting measurements to correlate with the sound they heard. They did do different clamping force and some are probably not realistic for a fresh pair, but could become possibilities when the pads become sufficiently worn. This is a direct link to the measurement part, which is an interesting read: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/focal-bathys-bluetooth-active-noise-cancelling-headphones/5.html

This is Resolve from headphones.com graph of the Bathys for comparison.

 

[GungJoe]

The reason why we are disagreeing on what is objective is because we have different viewpoints on what is actually measured. The output of the device is not what is measured on any measurement rig for headphones, it is what reaches the ear (ear and ear canal is simulated on all proper measurement rigs). If you just sealed of the headphone and stuck a measurement microphone inside the earcup then you would get a completely different response. Changing the ears or ear canal will also cause changes to the sound. The amount of change depends quite a bit on the headphone design.

The driver itself produces sound, but what leaves the driver isn't the same as what reaches your ear. There will be changes from the headphone itself where the rear wall and pads make a large contribution. The pads can both absorb, let sound pass through and amplify frequencies, basically you see the results in pad rolling with measurements. In a a fully closed headphone the rear wall seals it off and causes pressure to build up in the headphone, while in most good closed back design the rear is vented to reduce the pressure at the cost of some noise isolation. To my knowledge all of Focal's closed back headphones are vented. The earcup is essentially an acoustic chamber. Changes to the acoustic chamber and distance between the ear and driver can impact the sound of the headphone. There is a reason for why the harman curve is only valid for one specific measurement rig setup as changing the ears or the ear canals on the rig will give different results and thus not be valid for the compensation curve. The amount of changes in results depends on the headphone design. Pad war can also influence sound so a headphone can significantly change measurement response between a fresh pair and one with worn out pads.

The earlobes and ear canal reflect sound so it hits your eardrum and their size and shape impacts the overall sound. Almost all sound you hear is reflections and what hits your ear drums is the objective sound from the headphones. There is no subjective evaluation of what is measured at the eardrum, however there will be individual variance du to design of headphones. Some headphones have very small variance while others would have very large. Subjective would be the cognitive processing of sound that hits the eardrum, objective would be measuring the sound that hits the eardrum. One measurement rig only measures what would hit your eardrum if you have the exact same head shape, ear canals and ears.

When having trouble getting consistent measurements then one should take multiple graphs and publish them all as they are possible versions of the headphone sound. Tyll from innerfidelity used to publish an average along with all the measurements laid on top of each other and rtings.com actually takes measurements from test subjects to show how consistent or inconsistent a headphone is. Those are actually very important measurements. Both sets of measurements in the two graphs below are taken on GRAS 043AG so should be comparable.

These graphs are VSG28 from techpowerup, which had large issues getting measurements to correlate with the sound they heard. They did do different clamping force and some are probably not realistic for a fresh pair, but could become possibilities when the pads become sufficiently worn. This is a direct link to the measurement part, which is an interesting read: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/focal-bathys-bluetooth-active-noise-cancelling-headphones/5.html

This is Resolve from headphones.com graph of the Bathys for comparison.

I just wanted to reply to this quickly now. I avoided it at the time because I was busy with holiday things, sorry about that. I hope you've had a good new year.

I don't think that we do disagree on what is actually being measured. I don't believe the output of the device is what is being measured because if you go back to my audio sequence (below). I'm aware that measurements take place between 'distortion due to obstruction' and 'cognitive processing'.

Just my understanding to lay things out for clarity
Source (headphones) > Sound > Distortion due to obstruction > Hearing > Cognitive Processing (mental models, expectation) > Subjective Experience > Cognition > Post about it on Head-fi

Which leaves many steps for the sound to be altered before it's measured, and the measurement device itself provides its own obstructions which affect the frequency response. Measurements, as I see them are like maps in that that they are informed depictions of the objective sound, but not inherently the ground truth of what the sound is.

But, that does not mean, that like a map, they cannot be useful. The frequency response helps me to understand the sound after listening, rather than telling me precisely how the sound should be experienced. In the same way, if I see an object in landscape and then look at a map and see it too, the map helps to explain where I am and confirms that the object I'm seeing is the one on the map. The map does not inform the reality of what I see, but helps to understand it in the wider space when its validated against my experience.

So for instance, if I listen to a headphone and I hear it as siblant, then I look at a graph and it looks siblant with significant treble peaks, then it's probably the case that, compared to other headphones, it is siblant. That's not me taking the frequency response and using it to inform my opinion of the headphone, that's using the frequency response to validate and better understand what I am hearing.

I see your graphs and I have seen these before. Yes, all measurement rigs will record differences in frequency response based on headphone placement. Bluetooth headphones are more sensitive to differences in placement because the earcups tend to be smaller and shallower. So it's often more difficult to get a perfect seal and the driver angle and relative distance to the listeners pinea is more greatly affected by movement and clamp force of the headphone.

I completely agree that if it is very difficult to get a get a consistent measurement and headphone placement then it's worth taking many recordings and presenting them individually, potentially alongside an average. However, I disagree with the idea that we need to be considerate of the measurements where things like the seal is clearly broken. Yes, these headphones are harder to seal because of their size, but that does not mean that they are difficult or impossible to seal on a human head, and in truth anyone that can't get a consistent seal with these headphones (or any) should return them.

With all of that said, despite the inconsistencies in measurements based on the placement of the headphone, I think the Bathy's recordings are not all that different to one another in the graphs that you presented. Yes the overall treble volume is affected by headphone placement but as this is consistent across the entire region it would be possible to either correct by ear and adjust the placement, or EQ. Two of the recordings in the graphs are with the broken seal which I consider to be relatively useless as there are no headphones I would use without sitting them on my head to get a perfect seal. I didn't experience that issue with the PX8 or Bathys and truthfully can't recall any recent pair of headphones where I've had difficulty getting a seal. It's much easier to get a seal on a human head than a measurement rig because of the way out fleshy tissue functions almost like memory foam, partially depressing against the headphones clamp force.

Either way, I don't think there's really that much that we disagree on with the measurements. If anything you could point to the PX8 measurement inconsistencies and use that to explain why some people like myself have a strong dislike towards them, but I think the Bathys are pretty consistent and relatively easy to place or correct. The PX8 differences with placement seem to be more drastic.

 

[jainkjohn]

 

[elicohen]

Which Geekria headband cover would be the best match? The ones on my Meze 109 pro are just way to large for my bathys

Did you receive a reply? I am looking for a Geekria headband to match my Bathys.

 

[ddlo]

Nice one, thanks for explanation. How do you find the BTR7, and have you any other headphone amp/dacs to compare it with?

Oh yes, I got the ifi go blu first and then btr7 and recently added topping g5. but as this's another topic. you may go to visit this thread if interested https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fii...ding-which-one-to-go-for.966385/post-17335065

 

[ntemples1]

I am actually reposting this as I think it's more relevant here and maybe someone who actually has the headphones could please check this out for me.

I am getting a sort of clipping sound or distortion when listening to something close to the maximum volume (over 80%).

The sound I mean seems to happen when a high sound (hi-hat) is suddenly loud when a lot is going on in the track, or backing vocals in the mid range.

A track that always does it is Steely Dan the song Aja at 6.55 drum solo starts at 7.00 he does a kind of hi-hat fill and it causes my headphones to crackle or Clip like a kind of digital clipping sound.

It's not all songs, but quite a few and the noise doesn't happen if I lower the volume. Is this normal for these headphones? I have notices it seems to be on older music, never really hear it on modern tracks quite so much.

It also happens in Steely Dan's Babylon sisters when the backing Vocals come in after the initial groove is set up, I also noticed it on Jamiroquai 'seven days in sunny june' with the guitars at the very start again with the clipping at high volume.

If someone can see if there unit does it also I'll know that it's not a defect and just how this headphone is, I am happy with them apart from this, but it's gonna really annoy me at this price point though, the strange thing is the tracks I am playing at close to maximum are quieter in the production not like some of the modern tracks which are louder in production so can be played at a lower volume setting,

For reference I am playing them on spotify at highest quality setting, plus normalisation off (I hate that) and it's the same if it is played bluetooth or through the DAC mode with a wire. Also EQ setttings in app are off so default, ANC on any setting.

thanks in advance.

Neil.

 

[gryffe]

I am actually reposting this as I think it's more relevant here and maybe someone who actually has the headphones could please check this out for me.

I am getting a sort of clipping sound or distortion when listening to something close to the maximum volume (over 80%).

The sound I mean seems to happen when a high sound (hi-hat) is suddenly loud when a lot is going on in the track, or backing vocals in the mid range.

A track that always does it is Steely Dan the song Aja at 6.55 drum solo starts at 7.00 he does a kind of hi-hat fill and it causes my headphones to crackle or Clip like a kind of digital clipping sound.

It's not all songs, but quite a few and the noise doesn't happen if I lower the volume. Is this normal for these headphones? I have notices it seems to be on older music, never really hear it on modern tracks quite so much.

It also happens in Steely Dan's Babylon sisters when the backing Vocals come in after the initial groove is set up, I also noticed it on Jamiroquai 'seven days in sunny june' with the guitars at the very start again with the clipping at high volume.

If someone can see if there unit does it also I'll know that it's not a defect and just how this headphone is, I am happy with them apart from this, but it's gonna really annoy me at this price point though, the strange thing is the tracks I am playing at close to maximum are quieter in the production not like some of the modern tracks which are louder in production so can be played at a lower volume setting,

For reference I am playing them on spotify at highest quality setting, plus normalisation off (I hate that) and it's the same if it is played bluetooth or through the DAC mode with a wire. Also EQ setttings in app are off so default, ANC on any setting.

thanks in advance.

Neil.

I tested the song Aja on Roon ARC, with the Bathy's in DAC mode using a wired connection to my Fiio M11S DAP. Now before I go any further I have to admit I've never really heard Steely Dan much, not my bag, so I am not best placed to comment. However around the 7 min mark there was a bit of what I can only describe as a pop, and it was very prominent. I then switched to my Elegias and the pop didnt happen. Hope this helps.

 

[ntemples1]

I tested the song Aja on Roon ARC, with the Bathy's in DAC mode using a wired connection to my Fiio M11S DAP. Now before I go any further I have to admit I've never really heard Steely Dan much, not my bag, so I am not best placed to comment. However around the 7 min mark there was a bit of what I can only describe as a pop, and it was very prominent. I then switched to my Elegias and the pop didnt happen. Hope this helps.

Thank you for trying it's reassuring that it's not just me, I know steely Dan is an old track I am a pro musician so I am a particularly forensic when it some to sound and instruments, I have discovered lots of other tracks even more recent ones also where I here this kind of popping or clipping it must be a limitation of the speaker, again I know it's a high volume but as I play drums my ears are used to things being loud and sometimes I need that volume.

Not sure if I can live with this kind of thing or not.

 

[GungJoe]

Thank you for trying it's reassuring that it's not just me, I know steely Dan is an old track I am a pro musician so I am a particularly forensic when it some to sound and instruments, I have discovered lots of other tracks even more recent ones also where I here this kind of popping or clipping it must be a limitation of the speaker, again I know it's a high volume but as I play drums my ears are used to things being loud and sometimes I need that volume.

Not sure if I can live with this kind of thing or not.

I just tried the same and I don't hear anything alarming here. The headphones I compared were the Focal Bathy's in DAC mode plugged into a USB port on my computer and the LCD-GX which is fed through my iFi zen dac. I tested at what I think is around 100 db.

 

[ntemples1]

I just tried the same and I don't hear anything alarming here. The headphones I compared were the Focal Bathy's in DAC mode plugged into a USB port on my computer and the LCD-GX which is fed through my iFi zen dac. I tested at what I think is around 100 db.

ahh ok thank you for trying `i really appreciate it, when you say 100db do you mean the bathys set to maximum output on the actual headphone using the buttons?

 

[GungJoe]

ahh ok thank you for trying `i really appreciate it, when you say 100db do you mean the bathys set to maximum output on the actual headphone using the buttons?

Just by ear based on my previous experience where I've had accurate measurements of the loudness of headphones (with Apples own headphones, iPhone's can accurately tell you what volume is what decibel out). I had them set to what I would consider uncomfortably loud. I couldn't listen to music like that over a long period personally, it's too loud for me.

If it helps I think the Bathy's go to about 100-105 db wireless, I had them right next to the maximum. I assume you can get them louder wired with an amp, but I've never tried.

Edit: I've just given it a go just now because I remembered I still had an EQ applied. The EQ pulls down the bass so I wouldn't have thought it would have an effect and it does not seem to on second test, at least to my ear. I still do not hear the clipping/popping at high volume on AJA. I wonder also, how long have you been using them? I did burn mine in for 48-72 hours when I first bought them. In general I do not believe burn in makes a significant difference to the sound of a headphone but the Bathy's tell you to burn them in so I did because I didn't want to risk not having the intended audio experience with them even if I do not put much stock in the process. I played music through them for 72 hours over the first few days. I tried them before starting the burn in and did feel a change in the frequency response afterwards. Is there any chance that might explain the difference? Likely not but just a thought.

 

[ntemples1]

Just by ear based on my previous experience where I've had accurate measurements of the loudness of headphones (with Apples own headphones, iPhone's can accurately tell you what volume is what decibel out). I had them set to what I would consider uncomfortably loud. I couldn't listen to music like that over a long period personally, it's too loud for me.

If it helps I think the Bathy's go to about 100-105 db wireless, I had them right next to the maximum. I assume you can get them louder wired with an amp, but I've never tried.

Edit: I've just given it a go just now because I remembered I still had an EQ applied. The EQ pulls down the bass so I wouldn't have thought it would have an effect and it does not seem to on second test, at least to my ear. I still do not hear the clipping/popping at high volume on AJA. I wonder also, how long have you been using them? I did burn mine in for 48-72 hours when I first bought them. In general I do not believe burn in makes a significant difference to the sound of a headphone but the Bathy's tell you to burn them in so I did because I didn't want to risk not having the intended audio experience with them even if I do not put much stock in the process. I played music through them for 72 hours over the first few days. I tried them before starting the burn in and did feel a change in the frequency response afterwards. Is there any chance that might explain the difference? Likely not but just a thought.

thank you so much for testing them again, in answer to your questions I haven't had them long, I have been using them for about 15 hours so far i reckon, I will keep running them for the burn in. I don't really listen to super loud music most of the time but it's nice to know I have the power there if I need it, the clipping or distortion just ruins the immersion for me.

Strangely I forgot I have apple music and am running some tests with that to see If I still get the clipping,