flinkenick's 17 Flagship IEM Shootout Thread (and general high-end portable audio discussion)
May 31, 2018 at 1:29 PM Post #10,141 of 39,418
Op amp = Operational amplifier

So an op amp is a complete circuit amplifier as someone earlier commented that it contains miniaturized transistors, resistors, integrated into a package and needs a power supply to perform its function(s)

Discrete components I believe refers to individual resistors, capacitors, etc that would be surface mounted onto a circuit board

My 0.02
 
May 31, 2018 at 1:31 PM Post #10,142 of 39,418
well technically everyone agrees that AK products are the epitome of overpriced products, so yeah maybe it's possible

Is the consensus here that the WM-1A is not over-priced?
 
May 31, 2018 at 1:50 PM Post #10,143 of 39,418
Is the consensus here that the WM-1A is not over-priced?

everything here is overpriced, but AK is the king of the sport.

i remember a few years back, zx2 was considered a better dap than ak240 which costed like twice the zx2 price?

like i said kings of overpriced daps
 
May 31, 2018 at 2:49 PM Post #10,146 of 39,418
It seems the AK discussion needs a little bit of nuance. I didn't feel particularly called to do so, since I am not a fan of AK as a company to say the least. As a paying customer, I absolutely detest their cannibalistic product strategy of releasing new flagships and lineups every 1-2 years. It's one thing to charge the most for your flagship product, but the fact that you get to enjoy it for such a brief period of time before special editions and teasers for upcoming models make it feel outdated feels almost insulting.

That being said, I also can't go along with calling it overpriced because it is (ridiculously) expensive. I feel there is a significant difference with other daps in terms of looks, build quality and sound. For starters, the elegance of an AK player is simply uncomparable to the plasticy feel and simple build of lesser daps. Even so, I'm not one to care much about design, ergonomics, or UI. The only thing that matters to me is the sound. An often heard claim is that a DX200 for example will get you 80% (or 90%) of the way of an AK. But making such a comparison is the same as what owners of a $300 iem say about a $2K iem, which is just as true. A dap like the DX200 might be able to offer the appearance of a resolved image, but it lacks the finesse of the AK throughout its presentation. The end to end extension, the authority and sustain of its notes, the ability to maintain separation under increasing complex passages, and the treble definition and speed, are all examples where it falls behind the Ultima.

Just to be clear, these are all subtle differences, minute perhaps for many people. So whether or not such differences make the price difference warranted is very much a personal matter. But one thing that is for sure, is that these differences are more readily noticeable once you are accustomed to a top player and go down to a lower priced one, compared to when you are accustomed to a lower one and briefly try a higher priced one. The difference between an Ultima and a random affordable dap is akin to driving a BMW or a Volkswagen Golf. Both will get you from A and B in one piece. Both can go fast or slow if required. But its in aspects like acceleration, steering, and stability, where the BMW displays more finesse in the overall driving experience, besides the premium look and feel of it (although that might be enough motivation for some).

Besides performance aspects as resolution and staging, the AK380 Cu and Ultima Cu have a uniquely beautiful tone that, in my opinion, keeps a safe distance from any other player I have heard. But I would also rate the regular AK380 very high; even higher than the WM1Z when it comes to performance, although 1Z is also very good (and actually has a better stage and imaging than the Ultima Cu, it might even be more transparent). Another favourite player is the Lotoo Paw Gold for example, which is perhaps as enjoyable as the 1Z and AK's, but also misses finesse in terms of true resolution, top-end extension, and smoothness. However, it offers the densest, most bodied midrange, and combines this with a particularly engaging signature. The LPG in turn I would still rate noticeably higher than the ca. $1K daps I tried in terms of both performance and enjoyability.

The point of the story is that daps like the DX200 offer a fantastic sound for their price. In their coarse presentation, the grander scheme of the sound, it is indeed more than fine and some might say comparable. And of course there is no question that its price-to-performance is miles better than an AK Ultima. But that doesn't mean there is no noticeable or even worthwhile improvement when moving to higher players. This is the audiophile industry. You are required to pay ridiculous amounts for an incremental better sound. But that shouldn't be any news here right?
 
Last edited:
May 31, 2018 at 2:56 PM Post #10,147 of 39,418
You are required to pay ridiculous amounts for an incremental better sound. But that shouldn't be any news here right?

Thanks for that. I like the criticism of changing models and features too often.
 
May 31, 2018 at 3:30 PM Post #10,148 of 39,418
May 31, 2018 at 3:41 PM Post #10,149 of 39,418
It seems the AK discussion needs a little bit of nuance. I didn't feel particularly called to do so, since I am not a fan of AK as a company to say the least. As a paying customer, I absolutely detest their cannibalistic product strategy of releasing new flagships and lineups every 1-2 years. It's one thing to charge the most for your flagship product, but the fact that you get to enjoy it for such a brief period of time before special editions and teasers for upcoming models make it feel outdated feels almost insulting.

That being said, I also can't go along with calling it overpriced because it is (ridiculously) expensive. I feel there is a significant difference with other daps in terms of looks, build quality and sound. For starters, the elegance of an AK player is simply uncomparable to the plasticy feel and simple build of lesser daps. Even so, I'm not one to care much about design, ergonomics, or UI. The only thing that matters to me is the sound. An often heard claim is that a DX200 for example will get you 80% (or 90%) of the way of an AK. But making such a comparison is the same as what owners of a $300 iem say about a $2K iem, which is just as true. A dap like the DX200 might be able to offer the appearance of a resolved image, but it lacks the finesse of the AK throughout its presentation. The end to end extension, the authority and sustain of its notes, the ability to maintain separation under increasing complex passages, and the treble definition and speed, are all examples where it falls behind the Ultima.

Just to be clear, these are all subtle differences, minute perhaps for many people. So whether or not such differences make the price difference warranted is very much a personal matter. But one thing that is for sure, is that these differences are more readily noticeable once you are accustomed to a top player and go down to a lower priced one, compared to when you are accustomed to a lower one and briefly try a higher priced one. The difference between an Ultima and a random affordable dap is akin to driving a BMW or a Volkswagen Golf. Both will get you from A and B in one piece. Both can go fast or slow if required. But its in aspects like acceleration, steering, and stability, where the BMW displays more finesse in the overall driving experience, besides the premium look and feel of it (although that might be enough motivation for some).

Besides performance aspects as resolution and staging, the AK380 Cu and Ultima Cu have a uniquely beautiful tone that, in my opinion, keeps a safe distance from any other player I have heard. But I would also rate the regular AK380 very high; even higher than the WM1Z when it comes to performance, although 1Z is also very good (and actually has a better stage and imaging than the Ultima Cu, it might even be more transparent). Another favourite player is the Lotoo Paw Gold for example, which is perhaps as enjoyable as the 1Z and AK's, but also misses finesse in terms of true resolution, top-end extension, and smoothness. However, it offers the densest, most bodied midrange, and combines this with a particularly engaging signature. The LPG in turn I would still rate noticeably higher than the ca. $1K daps I tried in terms of both performance and enjoyability.

The point of the story is that daps like the DX200 offer a fantastic sound for their price. In their coarse presentation, the grander scheme of the sound, it is indeed more than fine and some might say comparable. And of course there is no question that its price-to-performance is miles better than an AK Ultima. But that doesn't mean there is no noticeable or even worthwhile improvement when moving to higher players. This is the audiophile industry. You are required to pay ridiculous amounts for an incremental better sound. But that shouldn't be any news here right?

Dead on post. You are the one who got me into the higher end of the IEM world. I remember a discussion we had on the virtues of teh Sony adn the AK380cu. I have not looked back. I"m so glad I got the matching amp also. Coming from the reference 2 channel world, I hear obvious differences between the AK and others I've heard. It's not even close. I tried the Sony at the EE booth as well as others and it's not as good overall. It's a great player, but the AK just has much more layering and inner detail. I find the bass tighter and deeper with my AK than I did on the Sony. As good as it is, it still isn't as good as some of the top desktop/2channel DAC/AMPS I own or have used with my PHantom's. Those just aren't transportable, lol...:wink:. Well said Nic. Thanks.
 
May 31, 2018 at 3:44 PM Post #10,150 of 39,418
It seems the AK discussion needs a little bit of nuance. I didn't feel particularly called to do so, since I am not a fan of AK as a company to say the least. As a paying customer, I absolutely detest their cannibalistic product strategy of releasing new flagships and lineups every 1-2 years. It's one thing to charge the most for your flagship product, but the fact that you get to enjoy it for such a brief period of time before special editions and teasers for upcoming models make it feel outdated feels almost insulting.

That being said, I also can't go along with calling it overpriced because it is (ridiculously) expensive. I feel there is a significant difference with other daps in terms of looks, build quality and sound. For starters, the elegance of an AK player is simply uncomparable to the plasticy feel and simple build of lesser daps. Even so, I'm not one to care much about design, ergonomics, or UI. The only thing that matters to me is the sound. An often heard claim is that a DX200 for example will get you 80% (or 90%) of the way of an AK. But making such a comparison is the same as what owners of a $300 iem say about a $2K iem, which is just as true. A dap like the DX200 might be able to offer the appearance of a resolved image, but it lacks the finesse of the AK throughout its presentation. The end to end extension, the authority and sustain of its notes, the ability to maintain separation under increasing complex passages, and the treble definition and speed, are all examples where it falls behind the Ultima.

Just to be clear, these are all subtle differences, minute perhaps for many people. So whether or not such differences make the price difference warranted is very much a personal matter. But one thing that is for sure, is that these differences are more readily noticeable once you are accustomed to a top player and go down to a lower priced one, compared to when you are accustomed to a lower one and briefly try a higher priced one. The difference between an Ultima and a random affordable dap is akin to driving a BMW or a Volkswagen Golf. Both will get you from A and B in one piece. Both can go fast or slow if required. But its in aspects like acceleration, steering, and stability, where the BMW displays more finesse in the overall driving experience, besides the premium look and feel of it (although that might be enough motivation for some).

Besides performance aspects as resolution and staging, the AK380 Cu and Ultima Cu have a uniquely beautiful tone that, in my opinion, keeps a safe distance from any other player I have heard. But I would also rate the regular AK380 very high; even higher than the WM1Z when it comes to performance, although 1Z is also very good (and actually has a better stage and imaging than the Ultima Cu, it might even be more transparent). Another favourite player is the Lotoo Paw Gold for example, which is perhaps as enjoyable as the 1Z and AK's, but also misses finesse in terms of true resolution, top-end extension, and smoothness. However, it offers the densest, most bodied midrange, and combines this with a particularly engaging signature. The LPG in turn I would still rate noticeably higher than the ca. $1K daps I tried in terms of both performance and enjoyability.

The point of the story is that daps like the DX200 offer a fantastic sound for their price. In their coarse presentation, the grander scheme of the sound, it is indeed more than fine and some might say comparable. And of course there is no question that its price-to-performance is miles better than an AK Ultima. But that doesn't mean there is no noticeable or even worthwhile improvement when moving to higher players. This is the audiophile industry. You are required to pay ridiculous amounts for an incremental better sound. But that shouldn't be any news here right?

I agree. And I agree as someone who could never afford a TOTL AK model. The fact is, Astell&Kern offers a lot more than just great sound. As you mentioned, their build is unparalleled in luxury and beauty. The display is superior, and they offer more internal memory.

Whether you or I value these feautres is irrelevant. The fact is they exist, and it is perfectly reasonable for AK to charge extra for them.
 
May 31, 2018 at 3:52 PM Post #10,151 of 39,418
Thanks for that. I like the criticism of changing models and features too often.

This is why I would never buy an AK player new or even a few months after it has been released, in the case of AK I'd be looking to capitalize via the for sale section after an "upgraded" version of 380 or whatever came out by getting the original version. If you're willing to haggle a bit you can do very well. At the 380/SP1000 level it's largely signature preference as to which is better for you since they are both near the top anyway. @flinkenick Is on the money with that entire post.
 
Last edited:
May 31, 2018 at 3:55 PM Post #10,152 of 39,418
Basically, this market doesn't have a lot of companies to compete.
We don't compare BMW to Gulf, of course, BMWs are better. How about BMW vs Mercedes vs Audi vs Acura vs Lexus.
This is a different story.
People willing to pay more money for good stuff. That is human nature, or I should say that is man nature.
But AK is more like Maserati, of course, it is better than my Camry or accord or BMW.
But how about Maserati vs Porsche vs Aston Martin?
If you guys know cars you guys know what I am talking about.
This is the feeling of AK.
 
Last edited:
May 31, 2018 at 6:22 PM Post #10,155 of 39,418
I want to give you ten likes !!
You sure that's all you want to give him? :grin:

...a BMW or a Volkswagen Golf.
Love the car metaphor. You'd make a good salesman if it wouldn't be a complete waste of your all your neuro mumbo jumbo : )

Whether you or I value these features is irrelevant.
So true!

A few years ago once AK started to receive more steady competition it started to become clear to me that their daps weren't designed with an audio-first philosophy. I started to get a "lifestylely" kinda vibe from them instead. If they were to be a SQ first company I thought they would've changed their house sound years ago, but warm tuning is safe, and safe tuning is mainstream, and mainstream tuning means wider demographics, and wider demographics = more $$$...especially the kinda demographics they were seeking. Mind you please don't take this as me stating that I don't believe some of their daps sound great, as they clearly do. I thought their 380's and up sounded very good indeed.

I was once told by the Canadian distributor that the way he saw it AK's key demographics were frequent flyer professionals and boys with toys over the audiophile crowd. This is where more flash and unfortunately "more price" tend to work in your favor. If you're going to claim you're the best at something, it helps to be taken seriously when you're the most expensive as well! There's one country where that adage rings truer than most and it also happens to be the largest audio market as well.

I think the real protagonist in AK's best seller "A DAP Too Expensive" is Charles Altmann. IIRC that guy was charging ~€2K for his Tera-Player (as good as it may be) over 5 years ago. Holy crap! Just checked and it's €3K now! At least it looks like, for the time being, he's not building anymore. You hear that AK? You can lower your prices now :darthsmile:

In the very tiny words of @pithyginger63, please don't take me too seriously!
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top