[Ike1985]

I think that is the case, or something happened in the past years where it has been decided that the less bass means we can stick a label on it to be the truest to the sound label which is just ridiculous

i am just trying to figure out how on earth did the appraisal for bass less iems come from
I am an audiophile basshead as that is a new term, and no I do not like beats iems as the mids and highs are drowned. But for example I can not listen to iems or headphones where I do not feel the impact in bass. Anything that has less bass than shure 846 or tralucent ref1 or ie800 simply means that it is not a true reflection of how the artist played the music in the studio let alone in a concert. So if they an iem can not nail a true reflection of how bass sounds then that iem simply just failed in my books. It does not mean that all I care about is bass, as getting solid full layered mids and great detail in highs with a great sound stage is upmost important as well

One iem that I regret selling was the tralucent ref1, it seems I have to hunt down one again, as that had a huge sound stage, amazing bass the only grip was its mids were a bit thinner than I like but maybe they corrected that in ref1 too, as I had the first version of ref1. Ref1 was the only iem when I first heard it I was blown by its wide huge sound stage and literally it felt as hearing full size headphones compared to all the iems I own or owned. Then comes asg 2.5 amazing sound stage , great bass and mids, my only grip was its highs but I should have tried it with a silver cable before selling it.

64 Audio A12, big bass big stage.

 

[Sound Eq]

sorry I owned the U12 nothing impressive stood out. Its a great iem but nothing in particular stood out for me that gave me a wow factor as such I sold it with no regrets.

wow factor:
ref1: sound stage nothing ever beats it
zeus r: mids are amazing, then I know some of you will not agree mids on shure 846 are amazing as well, but not like zeus. That is why I bought the shure 846 again for mids and bass
asg 2.5: bass and sound stage

all other iems I own or owned are great but lack the wow factor, I love my ie800 and shure 846 as a whole package signature but they also lack that WOW factor that just makes you pause and think wow I never heard something like that. The rest of the iems in my personal information which are quite a few are amazing as a whole as well

so my hunt is for an iem that has the sound stage of ref1, mids of zeus and bass of asg 2.5 and I know this will never happen

 

[FastAndClean]

i think the most realistic sound comes only with sub bass heavy headphones and in ears, i am using APO and PEACE eq with my fxa2 (already boosted in the sub bass region) i boost 10hz 7db, 15hz 3.5db, 20hz 4.5db, 30hz 6.5db, the fundamentals of the music is in the sub bass region, you will be surprise how much the soundstage will open up and the sound is much more realistic

 

[eldss]

i do not get it to be honest, when u are in a studio or in a concert the first thing u feel and hear is the bass impact. So how come then we appraise iems that are flat and bass less and call them to be true to how the artist recorded the music, well never in a studio or in a concert did i hear music without noticing how bass feels so impactful . So from where did this true to the recording come from for iems that u barley hear any bass from, i think to be honest an iem where u can barely hear the bass or its impact in the music is the farthest away form reflecting how it sounds in a studio or in a concert. Sorry to say it but those neutral iems with all honesty I think are so so so far away from reflecting an accurate recorded sound. When bass gets played in a studio you feel it no matter what genre it is. So how come some iems when you listen to music with them you barely feel that feeling in the song. Sorry again but to me something is not right here. Bass is bass no matter what genre it is in, no way on earth did I ever hear any recording in a studio or in concert like what I heard on some bass less iems that are called to be true to the sound.

I've been to studios w/ $30K+ monitors and the recordings had quite a boost in the low frequencies and very nice impact on their recordings. I think that the amount of low end boost is genre specific and I feel that younger recording engineers nowadays and top 40 music add a little more low impact than in the past. But good recording monitors have to have a flat response, because you need to have a faithful recording in order to have a nice clean final mix. How that translates into consumer equipment, and having equipment that doesn't produce the nice impact is the problem. If an IEM is announced, as reference quality, it shouldn't favor any frequency over another, but should be able to translate things for the listener, as closely possible to what the recording engineers intended it. The problem with a lot of IEMs is that it's hard to reproduce good impact in such a little speaker and small amount of space.

 

[ranfan]

Spoiler: Quote

i do not get it to be honest, when u are in a studio or in a concert the first thing u feel and hear is the bass impact. So how come then we appraise iems that are flat and bass less and call them to be true to how the artist recorded the music, well never in a studio or in a concert did i hear music without noticing how bass feels so impactful . So from where did this true to the recording come from for iems that u barley hear any bass from, i think to be honest an iem where u can barely hear the bass or its impact in the music is the farthest away form reflecting how it sounds in a studio or in a concert. Sorry to say it but those neutral iems with all honesty I think are so so so far away from reflecting an accurate recorded sound. When bass gets played in a studio you feel it no matter what genre it is. So how come some iems when you listen to music with them you barely feel that feeling in the song. Sorry again but to me something is not right here. Bass is bass no matter what genre it is in, no way on earth did I ever hear any recording in a studio or in concert like what I heard on some bass less iems that are called to be true to the sound.

Thanks for posting this, I have the exact same feeling. Sometimes I wonder if these people ever go to live concerts. I have never been to a rock/metal concert without a very prominent bass, sometimes a little bit too much...

Maybe it's the nature of sound in relation with size, distance, and volume. This is just my understanding. But in comparing a big live speaker or headphone, with small portable IEM that can fit our ears, physically they're different. A live speaker may have a larger driver in diameter, giving it a larger surface area with which it could vibrate air. While an IEM output size is limited to the diameter of our ear canal. There is also more distance/space from a live speaker to audience. In comparison with IEM to eardrum. Giving live speaker a larger medium to disperse a wider sound frequency (soundstage, and separation). An IEM is shorter in distance to our hearing sensor, giving it less air quantity with which to vibrate and produce sound. Additionally, a live speaker may produce a louder volume (dB) than IEM, before blowing our eardrums. Because the vibration is more dispersed in the air and surface, rather than concentrated into our ear canal.

Due to the nature of low frequency having longer wavelength (being able to travel greater distance), bass feels more prominent in open stage than higher frequency. An open stage allows for sound wave not only heard, but its vibration felt (e.g. night club with a reverberating floor). With an IEM, you don't have that open stage. You can only fill a small amount of space/air before it reaches your hearing sensor. And to find the balance for the perfect tonality in this case, is difficult. You can have a louder lower frequency, but with the sacrifice of coherency with overall frequency. Creating a more congested sound; with less detail, separation, and clarity. This is why less bass quantity tend to create a better imaging, and clarity (same IEM, different tuning). A more accurate/natural sound can be achieved when an IEM manages to balance between both warmth (lower frequency), and clarity (higher frequency) very well.

Anyway, in any form of compression, there is likely a compromise. In case of IEM; portability, with certain sound frequency and its overall harmony.

Again, this is just what I understand. I may be wrong, or have taken too much caffeine. If you want to take this further, I suggest visiting the Sound Science sub-forum.

Spoiler: Backup

---

@FastAndClean Your new profile is amazing. They look euphoric (from the bass?).

 

[EagleWings]

Excellent points eldss and RanFan. Like things are not complicated enough already... Adding to what our friends already said:

1. In a venue hall with speakers (or a studio without proper acoustic conditioning, that uses far field monitors), sound waves not only travel directly to your ears, but the lower frequency waves (bass frequency waves) are bounced off the walls, creating resonances, resulting in an overall warmer sound. The venues are acoustically conditioned to an extent that, this effect is not over-amplified, that it starts to veil the other frequencies. So, perceived amplitude of bass frequencies = amplitude of bass frequencies from the speakers + amplitude of bass frequencies due to resonance. So even if you listen to neutral speakers in a hall, you will be perceiving a sound that is warmer than what the speaker is putting out.

2. Now IEM/Headphone manufacturers have to make a crucial decision. They need to decide, when tuning their IEMs/Headphones, if they should or should not, account for this enhancement in lower frequencies due to resonance. While they could easily account for it, there arises 2 questions: 1. Which exact low frequency band needs to be enhanced? and 2. How many decibels to be enhanced? There are no right answers to those questions and it is difficult to arrive at a universal standard. The frequency at which resonance occurs and the amplitude of resonance, differs from hall to hall, venue to venue, and the location & direction of the speakers in the hall as well as relative to the listener.

3. Because of this challenge and lack of reliable standard, most of the manufacturers, when tuning a neutral IEM/headphone, decide to omit this lower frequency enhancement and try to tune it as close as possible to a studio monitor that measures ruler flat in an anechoic chamber. By not accounting for these resonant frequencies, a standard can be followed by the whole industry.

4. And then, there is also the aspect of the way the sound is perceived by us, humans. When listening through speakers, it is not just your eardrum, that is perceiving the sound, but it is also your entire body. You could say that a certain 'X' IEM moves air like real speakers. But unless and until, it can make your whole body feel the bass frequencies, the 'X' IEM is not moving air like a speaker.

 

[Ike1985]

sorry I owned the U12 nothing impressive stood out. Its a great iem but nothing in particular stood out for me that gave me a wow factor as such I sold it with no regrets.

wow factor:
ref1: sound stage nothing ever beats it
zeus r: mids are amazing, then I know some of you will not agree mids on shure 846 are amazing as well, but not like zeus. That is why I bought the shure 846 again for mids and bass
asg 2.5: bass and sound stage

all other iems I own or owned are great but lack the wow factor, I love my ie800 and shure 846 as a whole package signature but they also lack that WOW factor that just makes you pause and think wow I never heard something like that. The rest of the iems in my personal information which are quite a few are amazing as a whole as well

so my hunt is for an iem that has the sound stage of ref1, mids of zeus and bass of asg 2.5 and I know this will never happen

I concur with a lot of what you said about the 12's and I hope I don't stir some regrets up but the sound change with the apex m15 is massive, throw in a cable as well and it's a very different IEM. Now that I've heard it with apex I'm glad I didn't sell it.

 

[Sound Eq]

I concur with a lot of what you said about the 12's and I hope I don't stir some regrets up but the sound change with the apex m15 is massive, throw in a cable as well and it's a very different IEM. Now that I've heard it with apex I'm glad I didn't sell it.

Then u must hear the ref1 I am sure you will be more amazed

 

[Wyville]

i am just trying to figure out how on earth did the appraisal for bass less iems come from
I am an audiophile basshead as that is a new term, and no I do not like beats iems as the mids and highs are drowned. But for example I can not listen to iems or headphones where I do not feel the impact in bass. Anything that has less bass than shure 846 or tralucent ref1 or ie800 simply means that it is not a true reflection of how the artist played the music in the studio let alone in a concert. So if they an iem can not nail a true reflection of how bass sounds then that iem simply just failed in my books. It does not mean that all I care about is bass, as getting solid full layered mids and great detail in highs with a great sound stage is upmost important as well

A few thoughts come to mind that I think are relevant here. (Mind you, I am pretty new to the audiophile world.)

What we are talking about are In Ear Monitors, ie. earphones first and foremost produced to monitor music on stage and in the studio, rather than for listening and enjoying music. A really good quality bass is quite hard to do to a point where it can be used for monitoring purposes. So I can see how manufacturers will opt for quality first and quantity second, because the quality contains the information the musician needs. There is also a constant balance between how detailed the various ranges are being reproduced and what is most important for a certain musician to hear. What I mean is that IEMs are tools first and most companies cater to the needs of artists rather than consumers.

This leads back to a comment I made when the first result of the shootout came in, the Harmony 8.2. I referred to discussions I have been picking snippets up of around the forums about how IEMs and headphones have started to resolve more detail than you would pick up on during a live performance. It is not actually that realistic to have soaringly high treble. From what I have read, and again I am new to this so I could be wrong, I believe a realistic signature has a slightly north of neutral bass and slightly attenuated treble.

Slowly we see some companies tune their IEMs more towards consumer needs and realism. I would still contest that the bloated bass we see omnipresent at concerts (etc) is simply not realistic, it is as utilistic as monitors for sound engineers, except it is aimed at people having having fun. Realism I think depends very heavily on the type of music you want to reproduce. Modern pop is bass bloated and treble heavy, whereas my own preference for classic symphonies requires an impactful bass that is strictly controlled. I do not know of an IEM that can do both pop and symphonies realistically because they are so diametrically opposed. (Just as an example of what I mean.)

 

[FastAndClean]

@FastAndClean Your new profile is amazing. They look euphoric (from the bass?).[/QUOTE]

they love dat bass

 

[ranfan]

Spoiler

Our showcase/review page is back! I just noticed.

edit: less correct

 

[twister6]

Spoiler

Our showcase/review page is back! I just noticed.

Showcase is NOT a review page count. It lists how many new items you added to Head-fi review database, regardless if you reviewed it or not. So, this shows that you added 1 product to Head Gear database. That is a reason why so many people are upset their total review count doesn't show up. As an example, under my profile I have 54 showcase items, meaning I added 54 products to the review database, while I have close to 160 reviews on head-fi which are all still there but not linked under my profile. That is a reason I encourage anybody who is serious about posting reviews on HF to start a separate index thread and post links to your every review, and keep that link in your sig so you and others on head-fi can easily find your review work

 

[PinkyPowers]

64 Audio A12, big bass big stage.

The Truth.

 

[Wyville]

64 Audio A12, big bass big stage.

The Truth.

At the other end of the spectrum from the A12, does anyone know what the U2 sounds like? It looks to be mid-forward and I assume that it will be a bit warm considering 64 Audio's reputation for bass. I can't find any reviews of it, but it seems to be the most affordable option for IEMs with ADEL/APEX.

 

[tangents]

Will the Dream be next to fall -- three DDs like dominos?