[Deezel177]

Speaking of value-oriented, price-to-performance IEMs...

Custom Art FIBAE 3 - Through The Looking Glass

​

 

[Jackpot77]

I hope it will become an exciting and relatively affordable year. The power is within the reviewers to asked the developer about their cost and do the journalist aspect of audio. You guys are the closest thing to journalist. Sadly we dont have audio journalist, and we have many reviewers. And I understand the hard position a reviewer is facing when they are challenging a product which they are required to review.

Interesting points raised. Currently spending a few weeks with the flagship from the guys over at NCM for a review (the Bella), and been corresponding with their main guy Thomas. The more time I spend with it, the more I'm of the impression it can definitely hang with the top tier IEMs I've heard, and packs in some pretty good stats to compare with the current top end hybrid market (1DD, 8BAs and steel sound tubes to control resonance).

I could quite easily see this going for a much higher price, but it was refreshing to hear that they are pricing it just over the $1000 mark, and looking to avoid using dealers at the moment to try and keep the price low for their domestic customers in Vietnam. Now, $1000+ is still one hell of a chunk of change unless you run a hedge fund in your spare time, but it is nice to know there are some manufacturers out there who are trying to keep things in perspective pricewise when setting the cost of their models (I include EE, Custom Art etc in that list too).

 

[Ahmad313]

Speaking of value-oriented, price-to-performance IEMs...

Custom Art FIBAE 3 - Through The Looking Glass

​

Excellent review ,

 

[flinkenick]

Nic, that small portable amp at their table didn't do RA CU justice. I have no idea why David (the main oBravo guy) didn't have a full desktop amp setup to demonstrate a full capability of this IEM. Plus, he only showed me a balanced cable later, so I couldn't try it balanced from wm1z. It has serious potentials, but not when you drive it from a dap Thus, nobody at CanJam who tried this iem got an impression how it really sounds. I actually trying to get a loaner just so I can experiment with different amps. Now, I'm really curious about it.

On a contrary, Shure were smart about KSE1500, matching it with their own portable amp. I tried it from LO of SP1k, and was very impressed with it. Some peple next to me even suggested it's fine double-amped, driven from HO.

Hi Alex, I have no doubt the Ra will scale up from a quality source. I even acknowledged this twice in my first post. But even disregarding the need to drive an iem from a full desktop system, or its price (everything has its place if it's worth it), my main gripe is the following:
-The technical performance of the driver compared to other drivers.
-The tonality.

For example, I tried the funky Stereo Pravda iem that was also on display, which is a $2500 iem consisting of 7 BA's in parallel, that were held together with heatshrink and a glued-on tip. When listened with a regular source, it had a very nice neutral/natural tone, akin to something like the Hugo 2 in iem form. However, the stage was small, as was the general body of the sound, so it lacked engagement. When I hooked it up to the $5K amp on display, the bass extension and impact improved significantly, as did the stage and size of the sound. It became 'big', and considerably more engaging. But the tone was already there, and did not change. The impracticality of the design, which is also a desktop iem except one that looks like a guy just glued it together in his garage, nowhere nearly justified the combined cost of the amp and iem, but it had its appeal since it sounded really good.

This teaches me two things; 1) a BA design can also scale up significantly, and 2) amping improves what you already have.

Going from a dap by itself (I believe the LPG has as much power as the balanced out of the 1Z) to the oBravo amp, even though it might still not have the required power to excel, brought a significant change to the sound by bringing the treble in line, resulting in a smoother and more coherent signature. But the basic characteristic of its tone or performance did not change. In that case, it was competitive with a standard 2K iem, though in my opinion not as good as the better ones. I am sure that with a $3K desktop system the sound and the stage will become big, and it will be significantly more engaging than with the oBravo amp.

But if the argument is that going from a dap to that amp primarily changes the coherency of the signature, but going on to a desktop system changes every fundamental aspect of its sound (including signature and performance) to something completely different altogether, that's going to be a tough sale for me. Besides, the guy brought the amp himself, so I would like to think he gave it a listen beforehand. If the sound was not comparable, albeit it in lesser form, to a full-size system, I would assume he would have taken that into consideration. Next, the Stereo Pravda amp demonstrated how much a traditional BA design can also scale up from a quality source to a different experience. So, the improvement of the Ra from the oBravo amp needs to be significantly steeper than that of a regular iem from the same source. And since it's a desktop system, it might also be interesting to learn what its advantage is over a full size open headphone at 1/3 of its price.

 

[crinacle]

But if the argument is that going from a dap to that amp primarily changes the coherency of the signature, but going on to a desktop system changes every fundamental aspect of its sound (including signature and performance) to something completely different altogether, that's going to be tough sale for me.

A-freakin'-men. I hope more people in this hobby can understand this very important concept. It may start out as a turd and you may polish it all you like with your fancy amps and DACs, but you can't deny what it really is.

 

[ctsooner22]

Well, that's why people like myself and @ryanjsoo review the products we review. Our job is to find the best hidden gem IEMs on the market and give them the attention they deserve. Although we may dabble in the high-end from time to time, we absolutely love being surprised by value products too. With products like the EE Bravado, Custom Art's FIBAE line and the Nocturnal Audio Avalon, we're bound for a promising rest of the year.

Check out the Advanced Audio M5 CIEM or IEM. It is a single BA and very impressive sounding.

 

[ctsooner22]

Hi Alex, I have no doubt the Ra will scale up from a quality source. I even acknowledged this twice in my first post. But even disregarding the need to drive an iem from a full desktop system, or its price (everything has its place if it's worth it), my main gripe is the following:
-The technical performance of the driver compared to other drivers.
-The tonality.

For example, I tried the funky Stereo Pravda iem that was also on display, which is a $2500 iem consisting of 7 BA's in parallel, that were held together with heatshrink and a glued-on tip. When listened with a regular source, it had a very nice neutral/natural tone, akin to something like the Hugo 2 in iem form. However, the stage was small, as was the general body of the sound, so it lacked engagement. When I hooked it up to the $5K amp on display, the bass extension and impact improved significantly, as did the stage and size of the sound. It became 'big', and considerably more engaging. But the tone was already there, and did not change. The impracticality of the design, which is also a desktop iem except one that looks like a guy just glued it together in his garage, nowhere nearly justified the combined cost of the amp and iem, but it had its appeal since it sounded really good.

This teaches me two things; 1) a BA design can also scale up significantly, and 2) amping improves what you already have.

Going from a dap by itself (I believe the LPG has as much power as the balanced out of the 1Z) to the oBravo amp, even though it might still not have the required power to excel, brought a significant change to the sound by bringing the treble in line, resulting in a smoother and more coherent signature. But the basic characteristic of its tone or performance did not change. In that case, it was competitive with a standard 2K iem, though in my opinion not as good as the better ones. I am sure that with a $3K desktop system the sound and the stage will become big, and it will be significantly more engaging than with the oBravo amp.

But if the argument is that going from a dap to that amp primarily changes the coherency of the signature, but going on to a desktop system changes every fundamental aspect of its sound (including signature and performance) to something completely different altogether, that's going to be tough sale for me. Besides, the guy brought the amp himself, so I would like to think he gave it a listen beforehand. If the sound was not comparable, albeit it in lesser form, to a full-size system, I would assume he would have taken that into consideration. Next, the Stereo Pravda amp demonstrated how much a traditional BA design can also scale up from a quality source to a different experience. So, the improvement of the Ra from the oBravo amp needs to be significantly steeper than that of a regular iem from the same source. And since it's a desktop system, it might also be interesting to learn what its advantage is to a full size open headphone at 1/3 of its price.

As you know we spoke about all of this. I totally agree. Coming from 2 channel audio, I know all too well that the best DAC or top rated AMP isn't teh right one for every system. I have found the same to be true in the IEM world. I see folks owning a lot of IEM's for different music, but owning a less expensive DAP or a DAC/AMP and not considering needing an upgrade there. I listened to the Phantom's on a Hugo 2, Mojo, AK380cu and the AK1000 and the top Sony. I assume that folks in this range would use these devices. Each one gave it a different signature. I loved them all and that's why I got one (CIEM as that will sound best). I love it wiht my DAP. I do have a state of the art DAC/AMP in an Ayre QX/5 and will be able to push any of the IEM's or headphones (non stat's) to their limits or close to their limits. I feel strongly that my headphone amp is as good as the Walker mono's I heard as well as the Cayin (liked it a lot) and other top amps/dac's. I"m blessed and I know it.

That all said, I chose my first CIEM wisely for what I felt I could travel with as well as enjoy on a weekend morning while the wife is sleeping. I will now sell my beloved ZMF Ori's as I won't need them anymore and that helps offset the new top cable from Effect Audio that I fell in love wiht at teh show, !!!

 

[Deezel177]

Check out the Advanced Audio M5 CIEM or IEM. It is a single BA and very impressive sounding.

On the single BA front, I have the Warbler Prelude and the Jomo Haka which are awesome IEMs with their own specific sounds. I also managed to hear the single-BA QDC Neptune UIEM a couple weeks ago and it was great! It has the QDC house sound even with its configuration.

 

[ctsooner22]

On the single BA front, I have the Warbler Prelude and the Jomo Haka which are awesome IEMs with their own specific sounds. I also managed to hear the single-BA QDC Neptune UIEM a couple weeks ago and it was great! It has the QDC house sound even with its configuration.

Cool. What are the price ranges of those? The reason I brought up the Advanced is that it's only 39 9or 499 (I forget). Just great tonally.

 

[Deezel177]

Cool. What are the price ranges of those? The reason I brought up the Advanced is that it's only 39 9or 499 (I forget). Just great tonally.

The Neptune costs S$329; roughly equivalent to USD 250.

 

[twister6]

Hi Alex, I have no doubt the Ra will scale up from a quality source. I even acknowledged this twice in my first post. But even disregarding the need to drive an iem from a full desktop system, or its price (everything has its place if it's worth it), my main gripe is the following:
-The technical performance of the driver compared to other drivers.
-The tonality.

For example, I tried the funky Stereo Pravda iem that was also on display, which is a $2500 iem consisting of 7 BA's in parallel, that were held together with heatshrink and a glued-on tip. When listened with a regular source, it had a very nice neutral/natural tone, akin to something like the Hugo 2 in iem form. However, the stage was small, as was the general body of the sound, so it lacked engagement. When I hooked it up to the $5K amp on display, the bass extension and impact improved significantly, as did the stage and size of the sound. It became 'big', and considerably more engaging. But the tone was already there, and did not change. The impracticality of the design, which is also a desktop iem except one that looks like a guy just glued it together in his garage, nowhere nearly justified the combined cost of the amp and iem, but it had its appeal since it sounded really good.

This teaches me two things; 1) a BA design can also scale up significantly, and 2) amping improves what you already have.

Going from a dap by itself (I believe the LPG has as much power as the balanced out of the 1Z) to the oBravo amp, even though it might still not have the required power to excel, brought a significant change to the sound by bringing the treble in line, resulting in a smoother and more coherent signature. But the basic characteristic of its tone or performance did not change. In that case, it was competitive with a standard 2K iem, though in my opinion not as good as the better ones. I am sure that with a $3K desktop system the sound and the stage will become big, and it will be significantly more engaging than with the oBravo amp.

But if the argument is that going from a dap to that amp primarily changes the coherency of the signature, but going on to a desktop system changes every fundamental aspect of its sound (including signature and performance) to something completely different altogether, that's going to be a tough sale for me. Besides, the guy brought the amp himself, so I would like to think he gave it a listen beforehand. If the sound was not comparable, albeit it in lesser form, to a full-size system, I would assume he would have taken that into consideration. Next, the Stereo Pravda amp demonstrated how much a traditional BA design can also scale up from a quality source to a different experience. So, the improvement of the Ra from the oBravo amp needs to be significantly steeper than that of a regular iem from the same source. And since it's a desktop system, it might also be interesting to learn what its advantage is to a full size open headphone at 1/3 of its price.

I'm not making excuses or defending oBravo, bro, i'm more puzzled and curious about what's going on. Everything you said makes sense when it comes to DD and BA drivers. We both heard and analyzed many of them, and have a better understanding with more realistic expectations. Here, it's not even a Planar Magnetic driver, but something beyond that, their next generation Air Motion Transformer Speaker they scaled down from full size to a miniature driver.

Btw, this is a picture Ed took when you guys were both sitting at oBravo table listening to it (he messaged me this picture). The one I took were out of focus lol!!!!



So, all the bets are off. It's just a science experiment with a new AMT2 driver, actually RA is a hybrid design like their other iems, with this one being 16mm DD + AMT2 driver, 182 ohm impedance, 93dB sensitivity. It's not intended for a portable setup, needs lots of desktop power (wish they would have at least Micro iDSD at the table).

I'm not a full size headphones person, I'm into portable DAPs and IEMs. That's what I have experience with and feel comfortable talking about. At CanJam, I took a listen to some full size cans, including that new Meze flagship, using both WM1Z and SP1000, and many sounded like crap. Where is the bass? What's up with that thin treble? Many headphones I wanted to try were terminated with XLR connectors and when I asked if they have XLR to 3.5mm adapter, they gave me a dirty look. Many of these headphones cost thousands of dollars and require desktop amps costing addition thousands of dollars to make them shine. I think oBravo stuff falls into the same category, except they did "honey, I shrunk the kids" trick here.

One thing that I can't explain is the price. Sure, oBravo was the first iem manufacturer, before Audeze and other planar magnetic and electrostatic manufacturers, to shrink those drivers into iem footprint. But they didn't make it efficient enough to be driven with a portable gear or to have R&D capital and resources like Audeze, Shure, Stax, etc. to have a consumer friendly price. Again, I'm not defending them or making excuses or trying to kiss their arse to get a review loaner. If I get it for review, I will probably have more headaches afterwards because of the comments related to the pricing which I can't explain. I honestly hope to test it because it's like a science experiment to me. At the same time, I have no doubt there are some people out there for whom $10k is like $500, and they will buy it for a bragging rights to have the most expensive IEM.

At this point, I can't judge it because I didn't hear it the way it was intended to be heard, thus I don't want to jump into any conclusion yet

 

[Mimouille]

Agreed. All of the recent technological growth from most of the big-name manufacturers is a brilliant step forward for the industry as a whole. 2018 is going to be a really exciting year.

First of all I don't see how you read his post this way. I read it as "this market is so far overcharging and underdelivering", but slowly trying new directions so there is a little bit of hope (I might be wrong).

I honestly remain unimpressed by 80% of what is coming out and quite jaded by the hype around any new product.

Since I first had my SE5, nothing really floored me apart from the KSE1500, and to a lesser extent some Tralucent stuff. I am honestly more impressed by how big the 200$ AAW Q sounds at this size and price than by the AAW900, or many other TOTL I have heard.

I haven't been been impressed by any source since my Dx100, apart from LPG and to a lesser extent the WM1Z and AK380. I owned the overhyped Hugo and found it lacking dynamics, prefer the Mojo.

I am super annoyed and shocked when people say a 800$ iem is entry and performs well for the price.

I think that apart from a few brands, maybe less than ten, most brands are mostly innovative in finding news ways to take our money, and the religious zeal with which their fans will defend these brands at all costs is like finding yourself in a bad remake of The Handmaiden.

I honestly still love the game for the 20% that is worth it, but the amount of BS, fake hype and self congratulations is sometimes vomit inducing, which might be one of the reasons most of the people I used to see around these parts 5 or 6 years ago are nowhere to be seen.

 

[flinkenick]

I'm not making excuses or defending oBravo, bro, i'm more puzzled and curious about what's going on. Everything you said makes sense when it comes to DD and BA drivers. We both heard and analyzed many of them, and have a better understanding with more realistic expectations. Here, it's not even a Planar Magnetic driver, but something beyond that, their next generation Air Motion Transformer Speaker they scaled down from full size to a miniature driver.

Btw, this is a picture Ed took when you guys were both sitting at oBravo table listening to it (he messaged me this picture). The one I took were out of focus lol!!!!



So, all the bets are off. It's just a science experiment with a new AMT2 driver, actually RA is a hybrid design like their other iems, with this one being 16mm DD + AMT2 driver, 182 ohm impedance, 93dB sensitivity. It's not intended for a portable setup, needs lots of desktop power (wish they would have at least Micro iDSD at the table).

I'm not a full size headphones person, I'm into portable DAPs and IEMs. That's what I have experience with and feel comfortable talking about. At CanJam, I took a listen to some full size cans, including that new Meze flagship, using both WM1Z and SP1000, and many sounded like crap. Where is the bass? What's up with that thin treble? Many headphones I wanted to try were terminated with XLR connectors and when I asked if they have XLR to 3.5mm adapter, they gave me a dirty look. Many of these headphones cost thousands of dollars and require desktop amps costing addition thousands of dollars to make them shine. I think oBravo stuff falls into the same category, except they did "honey, I shrunk the kids" trick here.

One thing that I can't explain is the price. Sure, oBravo was the first iem manufacturer, before Audeze and other planar magnetic and electrostatic manufacturers, to shrink those drivers into iem footprint. But they didn't make it efficient enough to be driven with a portable gear or to have R&D capital and resources like Audeze, Shure, Stax, etc. to have a consumer friendly price. Again, I'm not defending them or making excuses or trying to kiss their arse to get a review loaner. If I get it for review, I will probably have more headaches afterwards because of the comments related to the pricing which I can't explain. I honestly hope to test it because it's like a science experiment to me. At the same time, I have no doubt there are some people out there for whom $10k is like $500, and they will buy it for a bragging rights to have the most expensive IEM.

At this point, I can't judge it because I didn't hear it the way it was intended to be heard, thus I don't want to jump into any conclusion yet

My guess is that the price is due to the R&D costs of making these special drivers, and their manufacturing costs compared to mass-produced drivers. Plus, it is more of research to expand know how and possibilities. But even though the planar drivers of the i4 produce a different type of sound than traditional iems, the difference in terms of resolution and transparency is not as explicit as something like the electrostat driver of the KSE1500. For me, the oBravo driver did not outperform traditional BA's.

But I hope you get to try it, and I think we are all looking forward to your impressions. Besides, glad to see you back on the thread bud it's been a while!!

 

[Mimouille]

I'm not making excuses or defending oBravo, bro, i'm more puzzled and curious about what's going on. Everything you said makes sense when it comes to DD and BA drivers. We both heard and analyzed many of them, and have a better understanding with more realistic expectations. Here, it's not even a Planar Magnetic driver, but something beyond that, their next generation Air Motion Transformer Speaker they scaled down from full size to a miniature driver.

Btw, this is a picture Ed took when you guys were both sitting at oBravo table listening to it (he messaged me this picture). The one I took were out of focus lol!!!!



So, all the bets are off. It's just a science experiment with a new AMT2 driver, actually RA is a hybrid design like their other iems, with this one being 16mm DD + AMT2 driver, 182 ohm impedance, 93dB sensitivity. It's not intended for a portable setup, needs lots of desktop power (wish they would have at least Micro iDSD at the table).

I'm not a full size headphones person, I'm into portable DAPs and IEMs. That's what I have experience with and feel comfortable talking about. At CanJam, I took a listen to some full size cans, including that new Meze flagship, using both WM1Z and SP1000, and many sounded like crap. Where is the bass? What's up with that thin treble? Many headphones I wanted to try were terminated with XLR connectors and when I asked if they have XLR to 3.5mm adapter, they gave me a dirty look. Many of these headphones cost thousands of dollars and require desktop amps costing addition thousands of dollars to make them shine. I think oBravo stuff falls into the same category, except they did "honey, I shrunk the kids" trick here.

One thing that I can't explain is the price. Sure, oBravo was the first iem manufacturer, before Audeze and other planar magnetic and electrostatic manufacturers, to shrink those drivers into iem footprint. But they didn't make it efficient enough to be driven with a portable gear or to have R&D capital and resources like Audeze, Shure, Stax, etc. to have a consumer friendly price. Again, I'm not defending them or making excuses or trying to kiss their arse to get a review loaner. If I get it for review, I will probably have more headaches afterwards because of the comments related to the pricing which I can't explain. I honestly hope to test it because it's like a science experiment to me. At the same time, I have no doubt there are some people out there for whom $10k is like $500, and they will buy it for a bragging rights to have the most expensive IEM.

At this point, I can't judge it because I didn't hear it the way it was intended to be heard, thus I don't want to jump into any conclusion yet

If you miniaturize your cell phone, but it only works with a 10kg battery, do you even need to test it with the big battery to know it's an unfinished product? Like you said, because of price and lack of real utility, these should remain a curiosity.

 

[twister6]

My guess is that the price is due to the R&D costs of making these special drivers, and their manufacturing costs compared to mass-produced drivers. And like you suggest, it is more of a science experiment to expand know how and possibilities. But even though the planar drivers of the i4 produce a different type of sound than traditional iems, the difference in terms of resolution and transparency is not as explicit as something like the electrostat driver of the KSE1500. For me, the oBravo driver did not outperform traditional BA's.

But I hope you get to try it, and I think we are all looking forward to your impressions. Besides, glad to see you back on the thread bud it's been a while!!

I got depressed reading CanJam NYC'18 thread, thought to get back to your thread, hoping it will cheer me up, I guess I was wrong