[Mimouille]

Hum, I don't know anything about who is right or wrong in this debate. I know Nic can get heated on some issues, but it is perfectly understandable. Doing this kind of thing is super unrewarding sometimes. People somehow think you owe them something.

Now on the specific discussion with Crinacle, it seems to me that he is quite obviously intentionally trying to get on Nic's nerves, but in a sufficiently roundabout way that it can seem like he isn't. Like the kid who only hits his brother when parents aren't watching and then says the brother is yelling for nothing again. I am sorry Crinacle if that is not what your intention is, but it really seems so from the outside. The guy who come and drops just a pinch of oil in the fire, and remains calm and pretends he has no clue why the whole building is ablaze, while just loving it inside. Not a very likeable attitude. If it is not intentional, well poor social skills.

Nic, I think you can either ignore this kind of play, or treat it with humour, then the firestarter tends to ignore you.

 

[sansfin]

I suggest we both take a step back, have a drink and listen to some good music to deaden the dissonances. There's always a wall of interpretation between facts and opinions and there is no reason to become overly concerned about who is more right or who is more wrong.

That said, I do learn a lot from both of you and I hope I can have the privilege of learning more in the coming days.

 

[flinkenick]

I hope I did not come off that way, but I honestly cannot recall specifics. Help me out here.



That is true, hate for the sake of hating is hard to argue since it usually doesn't involve logic. However, I don't think I was doing that; my topics had technology in its roots and have been for discussion purposes.



Because he repeated the same mistake that I told him about a few months ago. Either he forgot or he really thinks that I'm wrong about everything and ignored my initial advice. I wasn't trying to taunt him but seeing people misuse data is a personal pet peeve of mine. Everything else is interpretation; pardon my crudeness but it's not really my problem if you misconstrue relatively neutral wording like "I hope you can learn from that" as an insult, given the context. Who knows, you could've added unwelcome meaning to that little sentence when Nic probably wouldn't have given it another thought without your whiteknightly intrusion.



That's funny, because that suggests that I'm the one trying to ruin this atmosphere of praising and giving props with *gasp* polarising opinions (as if that is a bad thing). If all of you are so angry and insulted that someone would disagree with you, maybe I'm in the wrong crowd.

(Note: this is a conversation between me and you. Obviously you don't speak for Nic and I'm not trying to argue points that he himself have not made.)

Crinacle, I enjoy a good audio discussion with you or anyone else. But you do have a way of getting under my skin, seemingly on purpose. You didn't start the conversation by saying "actually, I have a different opinion"; you start it by saying " actually, you are wrong", followed by praise and likes from your following. It's the way you tend to bring these matters that gives me the feeling you have something to prove, including the past times. That's why I have never gotten in fights with other people so far, and I've read enough posts that I don't agree with. So you are more than welcome on this thread, as well as to bring a different opinion, just like you always have been. But don't frame the issue like I don't allow any counterpoints, when it's mostly about the way they are brought.

You need help. I'm amazed that your incredible rant has not been put to an end already, and that you could openly conduct yourself with such arrogance.

Let me remind you, now, that you are not the sole authority here. Many of us have already heard these "17 flagships", and we do have our opinions on the interpretation of the sound and graphs. Let us also be reminded that Audeze is not the sole purveyor of sonic understanding either. If the company was always right, Ultrasone would be far more popular than it is.

If I could make a suggestion, you should take a break. Come back when you feel more ready to handle suggestion. As far as I can see, you have gone too far and need some serious perspective in your life atm.

EDIT: TLDR; Audio is stressing you out, take time off.

This has always been one of the most easy-going and fun threads; part of the reason being that I have done my best from the beginning to stimulate it that way. Just like I have always encouraged impressions and reviews from people that participate on the thread. I have never presented myself as a sole authority on the thread, if you had read it you would know that. Even in this discussion, I initially kept it civil and stayed on point. But what I find incredibly insulting, is when people tell me that other people are actually capable of using their ears and I should try that. But you, who have never participated in this thread, take one side on the matter and immediately take a moral high ground over me. And now you're telling me I need help and should quit audio, while telling me I am the arrogant one. Real classy.

 

[PacoTaco]

Well, the Vega is Campfire Audio's flagship by their own admission. It's their latest and priciest IEM that employs their most innovative technologies. I think it's fair to say the Vega is CA's premiere product. Now, whether or not it's the best-sounding will of course depend on personal preference. For example, I prefer the JH13v2 and the JH Lola to the Layla, I like the tonality of the AK70 more than I do the AK380, and I prefer the MrSpeakers Aeon Flow Open than either of the Ether's, but that doesn't change the fact that the latter models are their respective companies' flagships. Nic picked the Vega - other than, again, for driver variety - because it is Campfire Audio's flagship through-and-through. The only other non-TOTLs on the list are the Jomo Samba, the Rhapsodio Galaxy v2 (though it can be argued that it is Rhapsodio's flagship dynamic IEM) and the Earsonics S-EM9, simply because their successors had not been released at the time of the list's conception. If you'd like Nic to review the Andromeda, then you could ask him to; it's already far too late to ask him to add it to the list.

I understand every reason you said, and I see why he did it that way, except for one thing you said:

Campfire still advertises the Andromeda as one of their flagships. Vega may be the newest, but it's a flagship of a specific line and sound of their IEMs. Andromeda is the flagship for the neutral, BA-driver line. All the stuff for both of them indicates theyre flagships for different purposes.

 

[Roscoeiii]

I understand every reason you said, and I see why he did it that way, except for one thing you said:

Campfire still advertises the Andromeda as one of their flagships. Vega may be the newest, but it's a flagship of a specific line and sound of their IEMs. Andromeda is the flagship for the neutral, BA-driver line. All the stuff for both of them indicates theyre flagships for different purposes.

And we have Nic's reviews on both. Even if Andro wasn't included in the shootout

 

[fuhransahis]

You are all wrong about everything.

Everyone get drunk tonight and forget about this nonsense, then drunk dial me some money via PayPal so I could buy Tia Trio.

On another note, I prefer the $100 iBasso IT01 over the AAW 900. Vocals don't sound like they're coming out of a tin can and I'm very impressed for the price. This, playing them out of my Galaxy S7 Edge.

 

[ljnew]

Anyone here dislike 64 Audio a18 or Forte?

 

[doctorjazz]

Stereophile magazine, the granddaddy of audiophile magazines, publishes measurements of gear they review, but always as a sidebar, with the idea being that they are useful for understanding what one is hearing, but the Listening Evaluation is what takes precedence (sometimes the trained listener/reviewer there doesn't hear it the way you'd expect from the graphs). Ears are better guages that the measurement equipment (in fact, the idea was to see how the measurements correlate with what was heard, not the other way around, and measurements didn't supplant or contradict listening impressions. They are most useful in finding a malfunctioning unit, channel imbalances and such). And, the gear for good measurements costs in the thousands of dollars. I generally don't pay much attention to them; a good reviewer can characterize the sound better than a graph-and Nic is quite a fine listener.
My $0.02

 

[PinkyPowers]

On another note, I prefer the $100 iBasso IT01 over the AAW 900. Vocals don't sound like they're coming out of a tin can and I'm very impressed for the price. This, playing them out of my Galaxy S7 Edge.

Did I mention a DAP is not the only thing iBasso is sending me?

I look forward to hearing this IEM you like so much.

 

[Tim Le]

Those last couple of pages were intense! I just want to say that I'm subscribed to both @flinkenick's and @crinacle's shootout and ranking list (they're my most visited threads here). It seems that you've both had your differences in the past, but I just wanted to say that by reading your debate, I've learned a lot! I'm sure I'm speaking for others as well, but even with emotions running high, you've both presented great information to the forum (and newer readers like me who are still struggling to understand and interpret frequency graphs). I'm sure I speak for others as well when I say thank you to both of you for that.

Last night, I had a minor scare. I was laying down, and when I got up, there was distinct ringing in my right ear (it sounded out of my head). I've played contact sports in the past, and may have had a couple minor concussions, but I haven't heard distinct ringing like this since then (it's been hit on the noggin). I don't listen to my music very loud, but I'm still concerned it may be signs of tinnitus. As such, I'm looking at IEMs with implementation of ADEL technology to see if I can get rid of if before it becomes any more serious.

Unfortunately, I can only find Empire Ears and 64 Audio who are using this technology. My budget is $1500, and I'd be willing to buy used. Unfortunately, that only takes me up to a U12 used or Zeus XIV used. From the reviews I'm reading, I think the U12 might be too thick sounding (I found the LCD-2f to be too syrupy and did not enjoy it at all), and the Zeus XIV too clinical/flat (I had the Spartan VIII and thought it could've used more bass and airier treble).

My favorite IEM at the moment is the Rhapsodio Galaxy V2, though if I could change it a bit, I would add 2-3db to the bass and sub-bass, bring the mids a bit more forward, and maybe smooth the treble out a bit (I still don't fully understand frequency graphs, but I love the way they make cymbals sound, but there are certain synths and share drums in songs that can be piercing).

So my question is "what are some IEM suggestions in between the U12 and Zeus XIV that implement ADEL (or similar) technology under $1500?"

Thanks again for all the information and doggy GIFs, this thread does make my lunch break at work all the more entertaining

 

[fuhransahis]

Did I mention a DAP is not the only thing iBasso is sending me?

I look forward to hearing this IEM you like so much.

You did not, sir! I think you'll be pleasantly surprised for the price. It's not Vega level quality, but I bought it to hold me over while I decide on (and save up enough for) Tia Trio or the Empire Ears one that's like Zeus with bass, or maybe even the IT04, and they can definitely keep me appeased for the time being. If you have the IT04 incoming then you are one lucky dog iBasso certainly seems to be delivering serious bang for the buck. And TOTL level bang for the buck at that.

 

[PinkyPowers]

You did not, sir! I think you'll be pleasantly surprised for the price. It's not Vega level quality, but I bought it to hold me over while I decide on (and save up enough for) Tia Trio or the Empire Ears one that's like Zeus with bass, or maybe even the IT04, and they can definitely keep me appeased for the time being. If you have the IT04 incoming then you are one lucky dog iBasso certainly seems to be delivering serious bang for the buck. And TOTL level bang for the buck at that.

The IT04 is what I contacted them about. Sadly, those are not ready for release. So iBasso wondered if I'd like to review the IT01 and DX200 in the meanwhile.

I had no idea what the IT01 was. But now I'm starting to get excited.

Those last couple of pages were intense! I just want to say that I'm subscribed to both @flinkenick's and @crinacle's shootout and ranking list (they're my most visited threads here). It seems that you've both had your differences in the past, but I just wanted to say that by reading your debate, I've learned a lot! I'm sure I'm speaking for others as well, but even with emotions running high, you've both presented great information to the forum (and newer readers like me who are still struggling to understand and interpret frequency graphs). I'm sure I speak for others as well when I say thank you to both of you for that.

Last night, I had a minor scare. I was laying down, and when I got up, there was distinct ringing in my right ear (it sounded out of my head). I've played contact sports in the past, and may have had a couple minor concussions, but I haven't heard distinct ringing like this since then (it's been hit on the noggin). I don't listen to my music very loud, but I'm still concerned it may be signs of tinnitus. As such, I'm looking at IEMs with implementation of ADEL technology to see if I can get rid of if before it becomes any more serious.

Unfortunately, I can only find Empire Ears and 64 Audio who are using this technology. My budget is $1500, and I'd be willing to buy used. Unfortunately, that only takes me up to a U12 used or Zeus XIV used. From the reviews I'm reading, I think the U12 might be too thick sounding (I found the LCD-2f to be too syrupy and did not enjoy it at all), and the Zeus XIV too clinical/flat (I had the Spartan VIII and thought it could've used more bass and airier treble).

My favorite IEM at the moment is the Rhapsodio Galaxy V2, though if I could change it a bit, I would add 2-3db to the bass and sub-bass, bring the mids a bit more forward, and maybe smooth the treble out a bit (I still don't fully understand frequency graphs, but I love the way they make cymbals sound, but there are certain synths and share drums in songs that can be piercing).

So my question is "what are some IEM suggestions in between the U12 and Zeus XIV that implement ADEL (or similar) technology under $1500?"

Thanks again for all the information and doggy GIFs, this thread does make my lunch break at work all the more entertaining

Athena should be really nice. And of course, I love the EE Spartan IV.

 

[Deezel177]

Yeah, great work man! I had a quick look at their website and it certainly looks interesting! (They did list the AV4 as "for the vocal lover".)

First some other stuff to take care of.

Hey Deezel. Great review. I just read it. :thumbsupp: Was a bit surprised, do you think the sound is similar to Prelude? Because the way you describe it, it's kind of similar. The 2-drivers also remind me of the Empire Ears Supra which I had, it also has an amazing vocals, and a lift in upper-mid. By the way, have you tried also the AV4? Man, I need to send Alvon a message soon. Or visit Jaben again to hear this hidden gem.

Lol, the CIEM price is almost the same as making an ear-impression, and sending it from abroad. Now, that's a good deal!

Now, the interesting thing about the AV4 is that it actually presents vocals like I said the 334 does. It's a darker, thicker presentation that's more suited towards how the Asian market prefers vocals. I purposefully selected the AV2 for review because I knew that it's clarity and transparency would be more appreciated by the international crowd on both this thread and THL. So, the AV4 is weightier, smoother and probably more HD650-like if I may use that analogy. The AV2 is the clearer and intimate-sounding one, and it is the one to get if you're already into IEMs like the VE5.

I would like to point something out that seems to be unpopular in this day and age.

Personal opinion is given too much credence. We are seeing this in US politics right now. Facts are said to be meaningless if someone's opinion differs from reality.

For instance: 100Hz is a bass frequency. Fact. If you hear it as anything other than that, you are simply wrong and have a medical condition. Your opinion is less than worthless, and no one should respect it.

Audio engineers know, for a fact, how certain frequency ranges can be used to achieve certain effects on the master. It does not differ from person to person. They know what a bump in the Presence Region will do for the clarity and articulation of vocals. It is a universal truth that always works.

Forget about misinterpreted graphs for a second. What Nic is saying about frequencies and note weight is an engineering principle and a fact. He is right, and no precious personal opinion will change that.

You can point to a graph and say, "Look at that peak! I don't like how that sounds!" And that is valid. Here your opinion matters. Only you can know what you like or don't like. But when you go and try to break down exactly what that graph is doing to the presentation of the audio, you've entered into the realm of engineering, and you can be utterly wrong. You opinion has no sway over the facts of what a certain frequency range actually does to the whole.

And that doesn't even go into how accurate or inaccurate said graph may be. You're already wrong, and it only gets worse from there.

As a working audio engineer who mixes and masters ensemble bands with vocals at least three times a week, this has been the argument I've wanted to make since the beginning. Although I never did so out of fear of adding fuel to the fire - and seeming biased because of my affiliation with THL - it is important to say that I've always agreed with Nic's description of frequency anomalies and how they affect the overall spectrum from an engineering point-of-view. Now, whether or not you think he's being "too" angry is entirely up to you, but I cannot deny the fact that from an objective viewpoint, what Nic has been saying from the start about the reasons behind a lack of note weight, the frequencies responsible for the perception of transparency and air, etc., have all absolutely aligned with both how I hear music as well as how I use EQ on a near-daily basis. Please take note that I'm not taking sides here at all; I'm just doing my due diligences as one of the only people on the thread who actually does this for a living.

I understand every reason you said, and I see why he did it that way, except for one thing you said:

Campfire still advertises the Andromeda as one of their flagships. Vega may be the newest, but it's a flagship of a specific line and sound of their IEMs. Andromeda is the flagship for the neutral, BA-driver line. All the stuff for both of them indicates theyre flagships for different purposes.

If that is so, I stand corrected.

 

[Gavin C4]

What source did you sample them with? Any idea of how difficult they are to drive?

Using SP1000SS to drive the FXA 11, I need to turn the volume up to 55-60
ZeusXR Volume 25-33
VE8 Volume 25-35
Andromeda Volume 1 - 12

*update all with single end output

 

[sansfin]

"what are some IEM suggestions in between the U12 and Zeus XIV that implement ADEL (or similar) technology under $1500?

If I were you I'd wait for the Tia Trio in the second-hand market. I don't think there's any other options that utilizes Adel or Apex besides EE and 64 audio. You could try the EE Apollo though.