flinkenick's 17 Flagship IEM Shootout Thread (and general high-end portable audio discussion)
Sep 6, 2017 at 1:56 AM Post #4,306 of 39,414
P.S. Based on my experience with mono recordings that have absolutely no soundstage apart from probably depth cues due to their one-dimensionality, they will definitely have no soundstage regardless of the IEM you play it through. Of course, differences in frequency response, among other things, will cause the recording to sound different through different IEMs, but will there be a sudden artificial soundstage? No, absolutely not.

I don't think that's what he meant by artificial soundstage. From experience I've seen headphones with a strong 8-9kHz peak for example can sound artificially more spacious but actually have worse extension than others. The "artificial" soundstage in that case is actually not very clearly defined and doesn't bring better instrument seperation, just "air". Not sure if I'm making myself very clear.
 
Sep 6, 2017 at 2:03 AM Post #4,307 of 39,414
I don't think that's what he meant by artificial soundstage. From experience I've seen headphones with a strong 8-9kHz peak for example can sound artificially more spacious but actually have worse extension than others. The "artificial" soundstage in that case is actually not very clearly defined and doesn't bring better instrument seperation, just "air". Not sure if I'm making myself very clear.

Yes, I definitely understand what you're saying, and usually I too would call it "air". I'm just using the term "artificial soundstage" because he implied it in his post, and I didn't want to introduce any possible confusion.
 
Sep 6, 2017 at 3:25 AM Post #4,308 of 39,414
Can't beat my rig today at the conference I attend : Bosch translator with Adidas in ears.

IMG_20170906_152017.jpg


IMG_20170906_152022.jpg
 
Sep 6, 2017 at 6:00 AM Post #4,312 of 39,414
According to UE's marketing material, the UE18+ has an entirely reworked crossover network, and the implementation of the TrueTone drivers and acoustic chamber that were introduced with the UERR. I can't be remember how different they sound, as I haven't heard the original in years, but those are the definite technical changes.



Dude, I don't know why it looks like we're disagreeing here; I absolutely agree with your central argument. The only thing I'm adding/arguing to your initial point is that it is two sides of the same coin because it is two different ways of interpreting the oscillation; objectively through measurements and graphs, and subjectively through the human ear. The information received by the IEM remains the same and the information output by the IEM remains the same, the only difference is who's on the other end.

I also don't get your reasoning as to why they're not two sides of the same coin, because what you're implying seems to be an IEM that's been measured to perform a certain way will be heard differently by different people due to how the brain interprets the information it receives (which is true to an extent). But, my argument is: How is that different from inconsistencies between measuring rigs? As proven by the initial argument that started all this, different rigs (people) with different coupler shapes and quality (ear canal shapes and critical listening ability), insertion depths (again, ear canal shapes), microphones (eardrums), software and hardware behaviour (brain-and-ear relationships), etc., exhibit different readings that have to be normalised and run multiple times in order to actually gain legitimacy. I can even flip the argument and say that if two people have the exact same opinion of an IEM (to the point where if they each wrote a review of this IEM, they'd write them verbatim; word for word), and it turns out the IEM measures differently on different measuring rigs, are the two people then objective and is the measurement now subjective? The only reason why I consider human impressions subjective and measurements objective, is the terminology used; audiophile speak in the former (which is inherently arbitrary but can be normalised to a degree (as shown in Nic's shoot-out)), and numbers in the latter. But, despite this, they each have their own caveats when it comes to reading and understanding them, evaluating their legitimacy, etc., such that they both have to be taken with the same grain of salt, which renders neither of them absolute and unambiguous... to me, at least.

I think this is all I'll say on the matter, I've dragged on this tangential discussion for a wee bit too long :D I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you; I'm just, in my opinion, supplementing your points with my own point of view. Cheers, man!

P.S. Based on my experience with mono recordings that have absolutely no soundstage apart from probably depth cues due to their one-dimensionality, they will definitely have no soundstage regardless of the IEM you play it through. Of course, differences in frequency response, among other things, will cause the recording to sound different through different IEMs, but will there be a sudden artificial soundstage? No, absolutely not.
its more about technicalities in sequence,

say i play a song or freq. sweep into an 2 channel measurement rig A and also two ears B.

STEP 1A the measurement device could record the magnitude vs time graph of the song from IEM-> Step 2A now its theoretically possible for one to study the curve and understand the notes, and possible what instrument for example, or even sound stage is theoretically possible to read, if one compared simple sounds fix different known spatial locations
STEP 1B eardrum would vibrate with magnitude over time-> Step 2B now the brain interprets the vibrations, tones, sound stage, naturalness and all that

so not 2 sides of same coin because comparing Step 1A with Step 2B
were it 1A with 1B, it would be same coin.

*note: measurement here is magnitude vs time, not magnitude vs frequency, but there are definite relationship btw the 2.
 
Sep 6, 2017 at 7:01 AM Post #4,313 of 39,414
It would be an interesting test for someone to build three IEM's with identical frequency responses but using different components:

i.e.

1) Single DD
2) Quad BA
3) 14 BA

etc.

I wonder what differences you would hear.

My experiences are anecdotal at best and I don't claim to have determined anything conclusive at this point, but here's what I've found out with all the IEMs I've tried, specifically with the bass regions.

The most obvious difference between DD and BA is the amount of air they "push". Specifically, in the bass regions. A DD IEM measuring at the same levels of bass as another BA IEM will sound significantly bassier despite the "objective" measurements. This also extends to hybrids. In the context of this thread, the W900 measures with much less bass than the U18 with M20 module, but in practice I perceive their bass levels to be about the same.

Between BA drivers, that's where things get more complicated. In essence, they can also differ slightly in perceived bass. A single driver like the ER4 sounds and feels like it has perhaps slightly less bass than something like the UERM or the NT6 despite measuring almost identically. Then you have something like the Samba that measures with quite a big bass bump, but relative to the others it isn't as authoritative as the others. Not trying to armchair-expert but it sounds like even differences in different models of BA drivers also result in different levels of perceived bass. The Sonion 33xx/38xx series, Knowles CI, HODVTECs/DTECs... who knows. Just spitballing a theory.
 
Sep 6, 2017 at 7:16 AM Post #4,314 of 39,414
My experiences are anecdotal at best and I don't claim to have determined anything conclusive at this point, but here's what I've found out with all the IEMs I've tried, specifically with the bass regions.

The most obvious difference between DD and BA is the amount of air they "push". Specifically, in the bass regions. A DD IEM measuring at the same levels of bass as another BA IEM will sound significantly bassier despite the "objective" measurements. This also extends to hybrids. In the context of this thread, the W900 measures with much less bass than the U18 with M20 module, but in practice I perceive their bass levels to be about the same.

Between BA drivers, that's where things get more complicated. In essence, they can also differ slightly in perceived bass. A single driver like the ER4 sounds and feels like it has perhaps slightly less bass than something like the UERM or the NT6 despite measuring almost identically. Then you have something like the Samba that measures with quite a big bass bump, but relative to the others it isn't as authoritative as the others. Not trying to armchair-expert but it sounds like even differences in different models of BA drivers also result in different levels of perceived bass. The Sonion 33xx/38xx series, Knowles CI, HODVTECs/DTECs... who knows. Just spitballing a theory.

So, despite the FR being more or less identical for a specific bass tone, the listener perception can be markedly different, if I'm reading your post above correctly (I am seriously caffeine deficient today, so that's not a given)?@

Does this imply that there is a more "physical" or even pneumatic factor that accompanies the basic FR data and tells our brains whether something is more or less bassy, almost like smell has a quantifiable effect on how people perceive taste (hence the growth of so many "molecular gastronomy" chefs and their random gases and other table trickery over the last few years)?

This may not be strictly on topic, but I have to admit this measurement debate has thrown up some very interesting points from all involved parties.
 
Sep 6, 2017 at 7:27 AM Post #4,315 of 39,414
So, despite the FR being more or less identical for a specific bass tone, the listener perception can be markedly different, if I'm reading your post above correctly (I am seriously caffeine deficient today, so that's not a given)?@

Does this imply that there is a more "physical" or even pneumatic factor that accompanies the basic FR data and tells our brains whether something is more or less bassy, almost like smell has a quantifiable effect on how people perceive taste (hence the growth of so many "molecular gastronomy" chefs and their random gases and other table trickery over the last few years)?

This may not be strictly on topic, but I have to admit this measurement debate has thrown up some very interesting points from all involved parties.

Few additional metrics may explain this phenomenon. There's impulse (no idea how it works, but I did measurements anyway for the future-me who might), CSD, burst decay (I think... I did some and threw them away but reading @DanWiggins' posts have made me hopeful again) and others that my level of knowledge is still far from.

My theory is on decay. How long the note lingers on after the initial sound impulse ends, creating a sense of presence even if the initial impulse wasn't that large to begin with. Again, no idea what I'm talking about, just throwing out pseudoscience like I do.
 
Sep 6, 2017 at 7:34 AM Post #4,316 of 39,414
Well there are different factors that contribute to the bass, and a few of those are measurable by FR (like quantity, tone), but others aren't (speed and decay, that might be measured by CSD).

However, even within FR the bass is not just affected by the quantity of the bass. A frequency response can only be viewed as a whole: the bass affects the treble, but equally, the treble affects the bass - both the treble quantity and extension. For instance, I found the best bass in the shootout that of the Galaxy V2. It's not only because it combines the naturalness and extension of the dynamic driver with relatively good speed, but also because the lifted treble provides more clarity in its impact. On the other hand, attenuating the treble (e.g. UE18+, 5-Way) will result in a softer, warmer, more 'instrumental' bass.

The moral of the story is that lifting one region in the FR does not have a unilateral effect; if affects the rest of the signature, and it is in turn affected by the rest of the signature. That's why sparkle resulting from say a 12 KHz peak will not have the same effect in a different tuning. So even when viewing a FR of bass, the bass region alone will not determine how that bass will sound. And then of course there's the important role of bottom-end extension in determining the bodily feel of impact, which I think is not readily measurable by FR. In the case of Samba for instance, it has a nice mid-bass bump, but its extension could be better. This will also affect the way the bass is perceived.
 
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Sep 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM Post #4,317 of 39,414
On a slightly different note!

Not sure if this has already been asked Nick but will you be evolving your ranking list with your ongoing reviews? (including the new Earsonics and Westone).
The shootout was a standalone feature. The scores are relative to the other iems in the list, not so much an 'absolute' score. But most importantly, I have never been a fan of scores or ranks. I think they distract from the message. It is better for each reader to distill from a review what they find most important. So I will not update the chart going on, glad to be done with it. :)
@flinkenick do you know what are the improvements of the UE18+ over the non plus version?
I personally don't, but Deezel seemed to have a good idea. I also haven't heard the former in case that's the next question.
 
Sep 6, 2017 at 7:48 AM Post #4,318 of 39,414
@flinkenick do you know what are the improvements of the UE18+ over the non plus version?

Original UE18 was horrible. A muddy, congested mess with no right to be anywhere near its asking pricetag. The 18+ is a complete overhaul with new drivers, and an improvement in every single way.
 
Sep 6, 2017 at 7:53 AM Post #4,319 of 39,414
Original UE18 was horrible. A muddy, congested mess with no right to be anywhere near its asking pricetag. The 18+ is a complete overhaul with new drivers, and an improvement in every single way.
I'm still waiting for the demo unit of the UE18+ to arrive at my audiologist, who only had the original UE18, and I am getting very curious! :D
 
Sep 6, 2017 at 8:07 AM Post #4,320 of 39,414
noob question alert!! :

sorry guys, back to the topic of DAP pairing, Shanling M3S is coming out and I wonder if it's worth to upgrade from my current Sansa Clip Zip??? I will only use Harmony 8.2 btw. Already tried MSR7 few days ago (won an auction game/event) as my first fullsize headphone and sold it 5 hours later because I can't stand the poor(er) isolation compared to IEMs. Probably never buy another fullsize again....
 

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