[jwbrent]

Yeah, there are tons of ways to finish IEMs, which result in different finishes as well. You can paint lacquer on like nail polish, which is what most companies do. There are companies like JH Audio or Kumitate Lab who spray their lacquer on. Then, there's Custom Art and Avara Custom who incorporate the use of a buffing wheel as well. So, it's very reasonable that IEMs from different brands would have different-looking finishes. Perhaps, Oriolus just did a better job in this case.



If I may ask, could you link me to this site that distinguishes Photopolymer from the usual acrylic resin and lists the advantages the former has over the latter? Because, I can't seem to find it on Oriolus's site, and my brief research into the word Photopolymer has yielded an interesting conclusion: Photopolymers and acrylic resins are actually one and the same.

It turns out, Photopolymer isn't this custom, bespoke material, nor is it the name of any singular product. It actually is simply a term used to describe any polymeric material that changes its properties when exposed to light. So, it's a classification or umbrella of materials based on this trait. And, the most prevalent examples of photopolymers are acrylic-based liquid resins, which harden into a solid material via light-based - particularly, UV light - curing, which is how every acrylic IEM in the world is made. In fact, the resin used in 3D-printing is a photopolymer as well. So, technically-speaking, all acrylic-based IEMs are made of photopolymers. I also recall a mention of this photopolymer being sourced from Germany. Well, just like Sonion and Knowles are for drivers, the most well-known manufacturer of acrylic resin and lacquer in the IEM industry is Egger; a German company.

So, unless I'm missing something, it does seem like Oriolus is using the same material to make their Trailli as everyone else. They've just called it photopolymer, rather than acrylic resin. It's like if I said I topped off my pizza with an Italian, protein-based, bacteria-grown curdle, instead of Parmesan cheese. And, that's not to knock Oriolus for it at all. To say that their shells are made of a photopolymer is completely truthful, and it's nowhere near the most egregious example of marketing fluff I've ever seen. This definitely isn't a case of that. What I'm trying to say is that with all the praise the Trailli is getting (most of which, I'm absolutely certain, is valid and earned), I think we should still be a tad more discerning in what we praise it for, most especially if you're gonna knock other companies - subtly or unsubtly - at the same time.

Interesting read. Being new to IEMs that are made made from acrylic, I found your post informative.

 

[riverground]

I agree 75 is perfect for portraits F2 is plenty. The 90 vintage would be good for a portrait at a bit of distance with an interesting paint like effect to what ever is not close to the focal plane. I have a 90 Summarit do not use it much.

That 300 is amazing so light and compact yet provides the reach. Not really birding with it but I do not do that anyway. For stage shots from deeper in the audience it is great.

I’ll get to try those someday!

And I hope when things get better, we could meet up and have chat about audio and imaging gear lol

 

[riverground]

Btw guys,

Meze just teased something on IG...

And is there some kind of connection between it and a previous interaction I had with them?

 

[HiFyAK2020]

If you calculate by general public MSRP for materials drivers and cables, the Erl should cost a comfortable 14,000 euros

PW dealer margins (and that of most cable producers) are 70%, the 1960s/1950s wire goes for something like 10$/meter (don’t quote me on that, it’s unofficial info) but the MOQ is just very high, making it inaccessible to anyone but very large manufacturers

In the super high end audio industry, what we’re paying for is labor (divided between RnD and production time), but most of all we’re paying for a niche hobby - if they don’t make an obscene margin on what are already tiny sales, most of these guys couldn’t exist

I'd wish VE would make good margin. I like them sonehow. Why did they stop the Erl? It seems to be such a great product.. A best seller and has better reviews than Elysium.
I actually noticed now how really small this market (IEM orCIEM) is. It's a niche niche market by the looks. In German speaking countries there are just less than 5 really serious dealers, that's it! And even then, most products are up to a price point of max 1000 Euros. Beyond that, the shops have almost nothing to offer. The Head-Fi shows that happen (just learned that) are in Hotels (meaning small),but at least in some mayor cities around the world.
I start to think that we talk almost of artisanal type of production, correct ?
The quantities and volumes for IEM's are in the price range of 20 - 80 USD?
Is that really THE market?
Then yes, in higher end or high end you need at least 70% margin, otherwise your kids stay hungry...
I come from a very technical/commercial background but in a totally different league of business sizes and quantities. I admire now even more those producers who put their heart into IEM's of high quality and obviously are driven by their passion more so than thr big bucks.
Am I right with this assessment?

 

[feverfive]

I haven't loved anything from Meze (sound-wise) yet, but still looking forward to a new offering from them. I really appreciate their design aesthetic,

 

[HiFyAK2020]

Yeah, there are tons of ways to finish IEMs, which result in different finishes as well. You can paint lacquer on like nail polish, which is what most companies do. There are companies like JH Audio or Kumitate Lab who spray their lacquer on. Then, there's Custom Art and Avara Custom who incorporate the use of a buffing wheel as well. So, it's very reasonable that IEMs from different brands would have different-looking finishes. Perhaps, Oriolus just did a better job in this case.



If I may ask, could you link me to this site that distinguishes Photopolymer from the usual acrylic resin and lists the advantages the former has over the latter? Because, I can't seem to find it on Oriolus's site, and my brief research into the word Photopolymer has yielded an interesting conclusion: Photopolymers and acrylic resins are actually one and the same.

It turns out, Photopolymer isn't this custom, bespoke material, nor is it the name of any singular product. It actually is simply a term used to describe any polymeric material that changes its properties when exposed to light. So, it's a classification or umbrella of materials based on this trait. And, the most prevalent examples of photopolymers are acrylic-based liquid resins, which harden into a solid material via light-based - particularly, UV light - curing, which is how every acrylic IEM in the world is made. In fact, the resin used in 3D-printing is a photopolymer as well. So, technically-speaking, all acrylic-based IEMs are made of photopolymers. I also recall a mention of this photopolymer being sourced from Germany. Well, just like Sonion and Knowles are for drivers, the most well-known manufacturer of acrylic resin and lacquer in the IEM industry is Egger; a German company.

So, unless I'm missing something, it does seem like Oriolus is using the same material to make their Trailli as everyone else. They've just called it photopolymer, rather than acrylic resin. It's like if I said I topped off my pizza with an Italian, protein-based, bacteria-grown curdle, instead of Parmesan cheese. And, that's not to knock Oriolus for it at all. To say that their shells are made of a photopolymer is completely truthful, and it's nowhere near the most egregious example of marketing fluff I've ever seen. This definitely isn't a case of that. What I'm trying to say is that with all the praise the Trailli is getting (most of which, I'm absolutely certain, is valid and earned), I think we should still be a tad more discerning in what we praise it for, most especially if you're gonna knock other companies - subtly or unsubtly - at the same time.

Very interesting! I will also look more into it. The mention of photopolymer was in Oriolus website (Screenshot attached).

I just read a German website and it confirms roughly what you wrote although it seems a bit more complex and confusing to me,what I just read on the web.
There is what they call polycarbonat a transparent plastic that is very strong, then there is Acrylic glass but then there are other photopolymers too with various chemical compositions but all UV or light sensitive (as you write: an umbrella name is Photopolymer). Some variants are used in dental care and medicine, others for signage, 3D printing as you already explained. I am now a bit confused as to what Oriolus Traillii is made of. In the perfume industry caps are made of either materials and they can easily be distinguished. Drop an Acrylic cap on a table and it makes a rather harsh noise. Drop a (whatever type of) photopolymer (like what we used in our petfume productions) on the table and it just makes a small darker noise. Easy to distinguish .
Now would you drop your IEM on a table to find out what material it is made of? I won't or maybe I will but from 5 cm at max... Maybe... Who knows. Not worth damaging my precious toy.
I will investigate more. It is interesting!

 

[riverground]

I haven't loved anything from Meze (sound-wise) yet, but still looking forward to a new offering from them. I really appreciate their design aesthetic,

Their design aesthetic is up there with the best.
I appreciate their products. But so far it’s only really been the Empyrean that has caught the attention of my ears.

Looking forward to hear this new product from them.

 

[toaster]

Yeah, there are tons of ways to finish IEMs, which result in different finishes as well. You can paint lacquer on like nail polish, which is what most companies do. There are companies like JH Audio or Kumitate Lab who spray their lacquer on. Then, there's Custom Art and Avara Custom who incorporate the use of a buffing wheel as well. So, it's very reasonable that IEMs from different brands would have different-looking finishes. Perhaps, Oriolus just did a better job in this case.



If I may ask, could you link me to this site that distinguishes Photopolymer from the usual acrylic resin and lists the advantages the former has over the latter? Because, I can't seem to find it on Oriolus's site, and my brief research into the word Photopolymer has yielded an interesting conclusion: Photopolymers and acrylic resins are actually one and the same.

It turns out, Photopolymer isn't this custom, bespoke material, nor is it the name of any singular product. It actually is simply a term used to describe any polymeric material that changes its properties when exposed to light. So, it's a classification or umbrella of materials based on this trait. And, the most prevalent examples of photopolymers are acrylic-based liquid resins, which harden into a solid material via light-based - particularly, UV light - curing, which is how every acrylic IEM in the world is made. In fact, the resin used in 3D-printing is a photopolymer as well. So, technically-speaking, all acrylic-based IEMs are made of photopolymers. I also recall a mention of this photopolymer being sourced from Germany. Well, just like Sonion and Knowles are for drivers, the most well-known manufacturer of acrylic resin and lacquer in the IEM industry is Egger; a German company.

So, unless I'm missing something, it does seem like Oriolus is using the same material to make their Trailli as everyone else. They've just called it photopolymer, rather than acrylic resin. It's like if I said I topped off my pizza with an Italian, protein-based, bacteria-grown curdle, instead of Parmesan cheese. And, that's not to knock Oriolus for it at all. To say that their shells are made of a photopolymer is completely truthful, and it's nowhere near the most egregious example of marketing fluff I've ever seen. This definitely isn't a case of that. What I'm trying to say is that with all the praise the Trailli is getting (most of which, I'm absolutely certain, is valid and earned), I think we should still be a tad more discerning in what we praise it for, most especially if you're gonna knock other companies - subtly or unsubtly - at the same time.

hah, that’s funny.

well, whatever we want to call it, it does seem noticeably more substantial to me than my other acrylic ciems. Erlky is still an indomitable, silver, and rhodium-plated German tank.

most importantly, whatever the bird is made of, or whatever we want to call it, once it’s in your ears with the music on you likely won’t care...

 

[Deezel177]

Very interesting! I will also look more into it. The mention of photopolymer was in Oriolus website (Screenshot attached).

I just read a German website and it confirms roughly what you wrote although it seems a bit more complex and confusing to me,what I just read on the web.
There is what they call polycarbonat a transparent plastic that is very strong, then there is Acrylic glass but then there are other photopolymers too with various chemical compositions but all UV or light sensitive (as you write: an umbrella name is Photopolymer). Some variants are used in dental care and medicine, others for signage, 3D printing as you already explained. I am now a bit confused as to what Oriolus Traillii is made of. In the perfume industry caps are made of either materials and they can easily be distinguished. Drop an Acrylic cap on a table and it makes a rather harsh noise. Drop a (whatever type of) photopolymer (like what we used in our petfume productions) on the table and it just makes a small darker noise. Easy to distinguish .
Now would you drop your IEM on a table to find out what material it is made of? I won't or maybe I will but from 5 cm at max... Maybe... Who knows. Not worth damaging my precious toy.
I will investigate more. It is interesting!

I know Oriolus call it a photopolymer on their website. What I was asking for was the source for your post where you said photopolymer was better than acrylic; lighter, more durable, etc. Whereas, as I said on my post, that photopolymer Oriolus is referring to on their website is actually the exact same thing as the acrylic resin that all other in-ear manufacturers use, because the acrylic resin they're using is a photopolymer.

The variants of photopolymer you've noted in dental care are actually similar to what's used in IEMs, because of their hypoallergenic qualities. That basically means it won't cause an allergic reaction when it comes into contact with our bodies; skin, teeth, gums, etc. If you go onto the DIY IEMs thread here on Head-Fi, there's a ton of crossover between the materials used in dentistry and in audiology. So, for me, there's no confusion as to whether the Trailli is made of acrylic resin or photopolymer, because they are, in fact, one and the same thing. Again, the fact that it's from Germany further supports this, because they're most likely sourcing it from Egger like everyone else.

hah, that’s funny.

well, whatever we want to call it, it does seem noticeably more substantial to me than my other acrylic ciems. Erlky is still an indomitable, silver, and rhodium-plated German tank.

most importantly, whatever the bird is made of, or whatever we want to call it, once it’s in your ears with the music on you likely won’t care...

It could perhaps be because they've cured the shells longer, so they come out thicker. FiR Audio print their shells thicker for this effect, for example. Or, it has something to do with the finishing as well. But, yes, I do agree that it makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. I just felt compelled to write that reply, because I personally don't like it when companies are being implied as being less attentive towards their products or less caring towards their customers, when it clearly isn't the case.

 

[Deezel177]

Interesting read. Being new to IEMs that are made made from acrylic, I found your post informative.

There are tons of great articles online that cover how IEMs are made. The one I feel is most accessible would be Klaus Eulenbach's coverage of how VE make their IEMs. This is probably the German article @HiFyAK2020 was referring to, and I think it's the most up-to-date one with how they're made nowadays. The other one that's more recent would be Inner Fidelity's video on Ultimate Ears. You can also find videos on YouTube from Westone and 64 Audio that cover how they make their IEMs, but this was before they transitioned to 3D-printing. There's also this video from a Romanian company called Ultimate Sound, but I'm not aware of any of their products. When it comes to the companies I mentioned like JH Audio and Avara Custom, it's mostly from little snippets they've posted on Instagram and Facebook, which are great places to catch these little, behind-the-scenes glimpses, though they're usually hidden between heaps of their more look-book or marketing-oriented content.

Another source would be the DIY IEMs thread I mentioned here on Head-Fi. But, obviously, like all threads are, the content there is a bit more unfocused and spread out. You'd have to follow along pages of conversations to really get your bearings. But, it's also a great source of info, because the perspectives there are of enthusiasts and hobbyists like all of us. And, it's also a place of history because it's where companies like Custom Art and Jomo Audio (and, by extension, MMR) were born.

 

[jwbrent]

There are tons of great articles online that cover how IEMs are made. The one I feel is most accessible would be Klaus Eulenbach's coverage of how VE make their IEMs. This is probably the German article @HiFyAK2020 was referring to, and I think it's the most up-to-date one with how they're made nowadays. The other one that's more recent would be Inner Fidelity's video on Ultimate Ears. You can also find videos on YouTube from Westone and 64 Audio that cover how they make their IEMs, but this was before they transitioned to 3D-printing. There's also this video from a Romanian company called Ultimate Sound, but I'm not aware of any of their products. When it comes to the companies I mentioned like JH Audio and Avara Custom, it's mostly from little snippets they've posted on Instagram and Facebook, which are great places to catch these little, behind-the-scenes glimpses, though they're usually hidden between heaps of their more look-book or marketing-oriented content.

Another source would be the DIY IEMs thread I mentioned here on Head-Fi. But, obviously, like all threads are, the content there is a bit more unfocused and spread out. You'd have to follow along pages of conversations to really get your bearings. But, it's also a great source of info, because the perspectives there are of enthusiasts and hobbyists like all of us. And, it's also a place of history because it's where companies like Custom Art and Jomo Audio (and, by extension, MMR) were born.

Really appreciate the links, especially for VE since I’m planning on getting a VE8 very soon.

 

[Tristy]

Really appreciate the links, especially for VE since I’m planning on getting a VE8 very soon.

Universal? If so... please post pics haha ive yet to see one in the wild.

 

[jwbrent]

Universal? If so... please post pics haha ive yet to see one in the wild.

yes, universal, and I will ...

 

[KuroKitsu]

Doing some further testing with the Layla, but the bass pot on the 2 pin to 4 pin adapter that I bought from Linsoul doesn't do anything when I tried it with the Lola.

**Edit** Looks like the bass control is reversed and turning counter clockwise is equivalent to clockwise on the stock.

 

[normie610]

Btw guys,

Meze just teased something on IG...



And is there some kind of connection between it and a previous interaction I had with them?

If it is planar driver, then finally more and more manufacturers are adopting planars for IEMs. The big question remains whether they’ll be able to make it sound really good like their headphone counterparts. I sincerely hope they will!