[O11111]

Why is this happening? Am I looking at the wrong place or something?

Ask Samsung. I have no clue why would they do that. Probably to make people buy their earbuds instead.
How they did that? Well, simple. Instead of using QTI Bluetooth stack from here they used AOSP stack (with some modifications as it seems, mainly for SSC)

this Snapdragon Sound has to do with Bluetooth Low Energy Audio (LE Audio)

Not really.

and the new aptX Lossless Bluetooth codec

Yes.

So, why has not @FiiO implemented the "normal" LDAC codec in a correct and appropriate manner for the UTWS5? Why is LDAC so buggy and erratic?

Because they did (well, it's quite a bit more complicated than that, but let's not go into details as it doesn't matter). The point is, the QCC5141 chipset in UTWS5 basically said "F you, I'm not gonna work as you want". Qualcomm f-d up high bitrates in their fancy TWM. Same for LHDC, but here they can at least disable 900 kbps mode. Unfortunately, I don't know what exactly is the problem, but I'd assume it's caused by buds communicating to each other and taking some of that precious bandwidth.
It's not LDAC itself who is to blame, but rather the QCC5141 and its firmware, which is a real mess. Some parts are binary blobs, so FiiO simply cannot do anything about that without help from Qualcomm. And, as you might imagine, they are not helping much. AFAIK some of those issues were reported to Qualcomm, but no fix was provided. The 990 kbps issue isn't probably going to be resolved, but some others hopefully will.

 

[Nick24JJ]

Ask Samsung. I have no clue why would they do that. Probably to make people buy their earbuds instead.
How they did that? Well, simple. Instead of using QTI Bluetooth stack from here they used AOSP stack (with some modifications as it seems, mainly for SSC)

Not really.

Yes.

Because they did (well, it's quite a bit more complicated than that, but let's not go into details as it doesn't matter). The point is, the QCC5141 chipset in UTWS5 basically said "F you, I'm not gonna work as you want". Qualcomm f-d up high bitrates in their fancy TWM. Same for LHDC, but here they can at least disable 900 kbps mode. Unfortunately, I don't know what exactly is the problem, but I'd assume it's caused by buds communicating to each other and taking some of that precious bandwidth.
It's not LDAC itself who is to blame, but rather the QCC5141 and its firmware, which is a real mess. Some parts are binary blobs, so FiiO simply cannot do anything about that without help from Qualcomm. And, as you might imagine, they are not helping much. AFAIK some of those issues were reported to Qualcomm, but no fix was provided. The 990 kbps issue isn't probably going to be resolved, but some others hopefully will.

Okay, I see...

Thanks for your explanation.

One last question. When using LDAC on my UTWS5, I am never setting 990kbps in the Developer Settings (of my S23 Ultra). I am leaving everything at default. But it still does not function properly. In the beginning everything sounds OK. After like an hour, I am hearing electrostatic artifacts, like "tsk-tsk" noises and like that. Also, I have a feeling that the higher frequencies are over-emphasised. One other thing I've observed is that if I will get out of range and lose connection, I need to put them back in the case and wear them back again. With LHDC this is not happening. If I will lose connection due to being far from my phone, the UTWS5 will reconnect again as soon as I will move a bit closer to the phone. If I will take one step closer to the phone, LHDC reconnects and plays good.

Does the above have to do with what you said about QCC5141 and its firmware, which is a real mess?

PS: Yeah, I also have the Galaxy Buds2 Pro but I'm using them for podcasts, news on the radio and phone calls.

 

[O11111]

With LHDC this is not happening.

On a different phone, I guess? Because S23U doesn't have LHDC.

After like an hour, I am hearing electrostatic artifacts, like "tsk-tsk" noises and like that.

Try pausing for 30 seconds (usually that's enough to "reboot" DSP core) and starting the playback once again. You can also try to set bitrate much lower, like 330 or 660 kbps. BTW, do 990 kbps work fine on your S23U? Wandering how much lack of software support affects the usage of QHS. It's probably still present in BT chip firmware.

Does the above have to do with what you said about QCC5141 and its firmware, which is a real mess?

The connection issues most likely are, noise is a bit strange. I think this might be because LDAC ABR tries to increase bitrate.

 

[Nick24JJ]

On a different phone, I guess? Because S23U doesn't have LHDC.

Try pausing for 30 seconds (usually that's enough to "reboot" DSP core) and starting the playback once again. You can also try to set bitrate much lower, like 330 or 660 kbps. BTW, do 990 kbps work fine on your S23U? Wandering how much lack of software support affects the usage of QHS. It's probably still present in BT chip firmware.

The connection issues most likely are, noise is a bit strange. I think this might be because LDAC ABR tries to increase bitrate.

Yes, on a different phone. I am also (rarely) using my Xiaomi POCO F2 Pro as a DAP.

Regarding the noise I am hearing. Besides the "tsk-tsk" after like an hour, I am also hearing a noise like when you're putting a vinyl disk on a turntable. Do you know how it sounds when you just place the arm on the disk and the phono cartridge touches it? Like that.

As I said, for testing this experimental LDAC, I have left everything in the Developer Settings of my S23 Ultra at default.

Anyways, I have disabled this experimental LDAC codec on my UTWS5. I've returned back to AptX on Samsung. I am not using it much, anyway. I am mostly using my BTR7 and there is no problem there.

Now I am looking forward for the iFi GO Pod to become available in the UK.

Thank you

 

[Spektykles]

I can actually run LDAC 990kbps (96kHz/32bit) on non Snapdragon Sound phone (my Samsung S20+ Exynos SM-G985F). But for only 5 mins with a lot of hiccups, and after 5 mins become noise. Downgrade the settings to 660kbps doesnt help. Pause the playback for 30 secs after the noise appeared will bring the music back.

 

[Nick24JJ]

I can actually run LDAC 990kbps (96kHz/32bit) on non Snapdragon Sound phone (my Samsung S20+ Exynos SM-G985F). But for only 5 mins with a lot of hiccups, and after 5 mins become noise. Downgrade the settings to 660kbps doesnt help. Pause the playback for 30 secs after the noise appeared will bring the music back.

With my Samsung S23 Ultra, I can listen for maybe one hour via UAPP using LDAC at its default settings. Then the artifacts begin. They are not constant but as the time passes they become more obvious. This is why I have disabled this experimental codec and I will not activate it again, unless there will be an update, somehow, fixing this.

I am not expecting any update from FiiO.

Actually, I am not expecting anything else from FiiO. I think I am done with them.
*unless they will have a major breakthrough or something.

 

[Spektykles]

I just finished 3.5hrs burn in test with LDAC to see if mine has any problems with long term playback. I cant find any noise or artifacts.
I let it play my entire playlist on loops until the battery runs out, left it alone on the table and occasionally checking the sound for any issue. Phone: Xiaomi 12S Ultra (with Snapdragon Sound).
Still managed to run full volume at 2%, impressive.

 

[Spektykles]

Because they did (well, it's quite a bit more complicated than that, but let's not go into details as it doesn't matter). The point is, the QCC5141 chipset in UTWS5 basically said "F you, I'm not gonna work as you want". Qualcomm f-d up high bitrates in their fancy TWM. Same for LHDC, but here they can at least disable 900 kbps mode. Unfortunately, I don't know what exactly is the problem, but I'd assume it's caused by buds communicating to each other and taking some of that precious bandwidth.
It's not LDAC itself who is to blame, but rather the QCC5141 and its firmware, which is a real mess. Some parts are binary blobs, so FiiO simply cannot do anything about that without help from Qualcomm. And, as you might imagine, they are not helping much. AFAIK some of those issues were reported to Qualcomm, but no fix was provided. The 990 kbps issue isn't probably going to be resolved, but some others hopefully will.

I think with LHDC the issue is in the codec implementation. Because I tested LDAC at 990kbps and it works, both non Snapdragon Sound and certified phones. Maybe QCC5141 can do high bitrate without QHS but very unstable.

 

[Nick24JJ]

I think with LHDC the issue is in the codec implementation. Because I tested LDAC at 990kbps and it works, both non Snapdragon Sound and certified phones. Maybe QCC5141 can do high bitrate without QHS but very unstable.

Your phone is the Xiaomi 12S Ultra with Snapdragon Sound so I suppose it works for you, even though you should listen to music all the time -and not just occasionally check- to be sure there are no artifacts. But I believe you! It works for your phone.

Can you tell me, though, which non Snapdragon phone have you tested LDAC on, and it worked for you? Like flawlessly worked? I am not talking about 990kbps. I am talking Best Effort.

Because my Samsung S23 Ultra cannot function flawlessly even at Best Effort (default) LDAC settings.
With everything at default, it will play good for an hour and then...artifacts.

 

[O11111]

I think with LHDC the issue is in the codec implementation. Because I tested LDAC at 990kbps and it works, both non Snapdragon Sound and certified phones. Maybe QCC5141 can do high bitrate without QHS but very unstable.

Nope. I've tried it and QHS is absolutely necessary. Actually, one of the devices I've tested was without QHS (Samsung A51), and it had development settings bug. So it would happily show 990 kbps, but in fact it's only 660 (or whatever was set before).

 

[pervysage]

I just finished 3.5hrs burn in test with LDAC to see if mine has any problems with long term playback. I cant find any noise or artifacts.
I let it play my entire playlist on loops until the battery runs out, left it alone on the table and occasionally checking the sound for any issue. Phone: Xiaomi 12S Ultra (with Snapdragon Sound).
Still managed to run full volume at 2%, impressive.

I wonder if the Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1 has something to do with it working well?

I believe my Samsung Fold4 has the same chip and my experience has been flawless as well. I was not expecting that at all when hearing about all these issues that people were having. LDAC 990kbps works great and I was listening for hours yesterday at work and another hour or so at home.

And people with newer phones/chips like the S23 Ultra seem to have issues so maybe something changed with Snapdragon 8 Gen 2? Just speculating as I'm pretty clueless when it comes to bluetooth codecs but I guess I'm not upgrading my phone anytime soon

 

[Nick24JJ]

Okay, well, since there is at least one person here who reports a flawless experience with a previous gen Samsung phone, I guess it wouldn't hurt to give it another try.
I will re-install the latest firmware, so like the same firmware over the top. Then I will reset everything. Let's see IF it will work this time. I am only interested in Best Effort, all LDAC settings left at Default.

One question. On this page:
https://forum.fiio.com/note/showNoteContent.do?id=202203231057051219397&tid=100
FiiO suggests:
If there is still stutter or muteness, please hold the physical button with a raised dot on the earbud for about 8s, and then reset the two earbuds and reconnect them.

Which physical button is that? Do they mean the actual buttons on the ear-hooks?

 

[ext23]

I have a Poco F3 with CrDroid. LDAC is utterly unusable at 990kbps, stutters and artefacts right from the start. 660 kbps, less so, but still enough to be very annoying. Best effort/adaptive also has minor errors. Gonna stick to AptX for the time being.

EDIT: Forcing 44.1 kHz, 24 bit, and 330 kbps gives me pretty reliable performance.

 

[pervysage]

I wonder if the Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1 has something to do with it working well?

I believe my Samsung Fold4 has the same chip and my experience has been flawless as well. I was not expecting that at all when hearing about all these issues that people were having. LDAC 990kbps works great and I was listening for hours yesterday at work and another hour or so at home.

And people with newer phones/chips like the S23 Ultra seem to have issues so maybe something changed with Snapdragon 8 Gen 2? Just speculating as I'm pretty clueless when it comes to bluetooth codecs but I guess I'm not upgrading my phone anytime soon

Just out of curiosity I connected the UTWS5 to my old Samsung S6 Lite tablet (Exynos 9610 chipset) fully expecting to have some issues and even the tablet seems to work fine so far (LDAC 990kbps once again). Interesting...

EDIT: Nevermind, seems like the tablet has the occasional very slight hiccup sometimes but it is so tiny that it is not even all that bothersome. Still surprising performance when I was expecting it to just flop.

EDIT 2: After more testing of the tablet the hiccups seemed to have stopped, could have possibly just been attributed to running apps in the background or something. Sounds really good!

 

[ClieOS]

Just updated my UTWS5 to the new v1.71 LDAC firmware as I only realized the new firmware has been released yesterday. Not problem setting it to SQ Priority (990kbps) mode - no random disconnection or shuttering, very stable even right next to my PC (WiFi 6, BT keyboard + mouse). In contrast, I can't even set my iFi Go Pod to SQ Priority (super unstable) but only Best Effort in a very quiet (electro-magnetically speaking) room. Overall I am happy with the beta LDAC firmware and hopefully a full stable version will be released.

FYI: Paired to my Xperia 1 IV (SD 8 Gen 1, so SD Sound certified) and since it is a Sony, has one of the best LDAC implementation / stability of any smartphone.