[x RELIC x]

So based on that i have to assume the dude at chord (whose name escapes me at the moment) is some sort of DAC designing savant, and/or he/they are just ridiculously passionate about it? Interesting. So does that mean Chord makes the only FPGA DACs, and any more specific info on why nobody else makes/has made them? I mean, i get it its difficult, but so difficult that this the sole company that is or has ever been willing/able to produce them?

Rob Watts. He does seem to be some kind of programming savant and he and Chord both are ridiculously passionate about their work. It takes a lot of testing and tweaking with the finest measurement devices (over $100K) to get to where they are at. All of Chords DACs are based on an FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array, basically a blank slate chip) design as its the only way to implement his code. There are other manufacturers that use FPGA chips but in different ways, and none of them use Rob Watts / Chord's code (trade secret). It's damned expensive to spend that amount of time writing your own code which is why most companies don't do it. Rob Watts has spent over thirty years getting to the point he is at now with his FPGA code and WTA filter so it's basically his life work. Chord has been fortunate enough to have partnered with him.

 

[f4phantom2500]

I mean companies like TI have billions of dollars in r&d, is there any way that any DAC manufacturers can catch up? Seems to me it is perhaps a matter of companies like that not feeling motivated enough/not aware enough to pursue it. And while they have the resources but no desire, perhaps the smaller boutique DAP manufacturers like fiio have the desire but no resources. Sounds like enough demand from these manufacturers for a DAC that can go toe to toe with the FPGA would almost be necessary


Btw, wasnt FPGA a type of chip they (used to?) use in video cards?

 

[x RELIC x]

I mean companies like TI have billions of dollars in r&d, is there any way that any DAC manufacturers can catch up? Seems to me it is perhaps a matter of companies like that not feeling motivated enough/not aware enough to pursue it. And while they have the resources but no desire, perhaps the smaller boutique DAP manufacturers like fiio have the desire but no resources. Sounds like enough demand from these manufacturers for a DAC that can go toe to toe with the FPGA would almost be necessary


Btw, wasnt FPGA a type of chip they (used to?) use in video cards?

Because profit rules and the mass consumer doesn't care about the differences. Same reason TI left R-2R chips behind.

You can use FPGA chips in anything. They are a blank slate. This is getting way off topic though. I know that FiiO is no where near large enough to implement proprietary DACs for the mass market.

We should get back to the Q5.

 

[Mackspower]

No, no, no . . .  please keep the DLNA function.  Streaming bit-perfect audio should already be the no-brainer standard.

Let the team work out the interface and control issues.

 

[f4phantom2500]

I at least know that fpga chips are versatile - thats why I mentioned their use in video cards. But what i was trying to allude to is that perhaps there are other, non-dac manufacturers that produce advanced fpga chips already. Perhaps coding and specializing for audio would be a relatively straightforward process for such a firm; perhaps much of the engineering roadblocks have already been passed by such firms, theres just no acknowledgement of it in regards to audio application because nobody is asking about it. But i guess my allusion was too subtle.

And yea, this is still about the Q5. I was just brainstorming to think of a way to make this competitive with the Mojo, SQ wise, because if I just accept your rhetoric at face value, then it simply can not happen, and I dont know if I fully believe that. Maybe you and others are content to discuss other details such as battery life and interface, and thats fine and all, but Im trying to propose ideas that could get the FPGA tech into the hands of a company like fiio, as, based on what youve said, its the ultimate SQ dac, and after all is said and done SQ is my #1 focus on a device like this. Why settle for less when I can get the ultimate in the mojo?

Although, realistically, i expect at best James will read this, maybe find it intriguing, but either not act on it or conclude that, even still, it would be way more work and a longer development time for the Q5 than if they just went with a high quality off the shelf dac. Perhaps fiio may find this kind of option viable for a future project, however. And who knows? Crazier things have happened than an FPGA DAC ending up in the Q5...but i wont hold my breath

 

[RebeccaSugar]

Agr

 

[x RELIC x]

I at least know that fpga chips are versatile - thats why I mentioned their use in video cards. But what i was trying to allude to is that perhaps there are other, non-dac manufacturers that produce advanced fpga chips already. Perhaps coding and specializing for audio would be a relatively straightforward process for such a firm; perhaps much of the engineering roadblocks have already been passed by such firms, theres just no acknowledgement of it in regards to audio application because nobody is asking about it. But i guess my allusion was too subtle.

And yea, this is still about the Q5. I was just brainstorming to think of a way to make this competitive with the Mojo, SQ wise, because if I just accept your rhetoric at face value, then it simply can not happen, and I dont know if I fully believe that. Maybe you and others are content to discuss other details such as battery life and interface, and thats fine and all, but Im trying to propose ideas that could get the FPGA tech into the hands of a company like fiio, as, based on what youve said, its the ultimate SQ dac, and after all is said and done SQ is my #1 focus on a device like this. Why settle for less when I can get the ultimate in the mojo?

Although, realistically, i expect at best James will read this, maybe find it intriguing, but either not act on it or conclude that, even still, it would be way more work and a longer development time for the Q5 than if they just went with a high quality off the shelf dac. Perhaps fiio may find this kind of option viable for a future project, however. And who knows? Crazier things have happened than an FPGA DAC ending up in the Q5...but i wont hold my breath

It's not rhetoric. Chord purchases their FPGA chips from Xilinx, and so do a lot of other manufacturers of many other devices (ie., not DACs), and FiiO can to.

http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/fpga.html

It doesn't matter who manufactures the chip. It's a dumb device until you add your code to make it do what you want it to do.

The magic happens in the code and the pulse array DACs in Chord's gear, which FiiO does not currently have the expertise or resources to implement. They can pay a boat load of money for 'someone' to write the code but it seems as if Rob Watts is the only one doing it his way and that's it. It's working out well for him and Chord is damned lucky he's on board as the resounding feedback is that he's doing something right. The Mojo is not the best of the bunch. I'd peg that in the Chord Dave category, AGD Master 7, Schiit Yggy, etc, but that's a whole other conversation.

I'm saying you should read a little more and research the facts before thinking it's as easy as just grabbing a chip and hiring someone to code and everything will work out. It take serious expertise and experience in that particular way of programming and testing over and over again to get there, something that has taken him 30 yrs to do. Rob Watts has posted plenty on Head Fi about his approach. If you're interested I suggest you check his profile and read the "All Posts" by him. It's quite informative.

FiiO is simply not on that path and neither is the Q5. Both the Q5 and Mojo do the same thing from different companies with different approaches at different price points. James is aware of the Mojo, I assure you, and if they are able to get there it would be great for FiiO, I just don't think it's going to happen given FiiO's history and the successful business formula they've got right now. It's quite a risk to go your own route with proprietary tech. Honestly, if you want Mojo quality then purchase a Mojo. If you want great quality from a FiiO device at a lower cost then buy the Q5.

 

[f4phantom2500]

Thanks for the perspective. I still think that the idea that Mr Watts is the sole person capable of producing such a thing is, at least in part, drawn by speculation and presumption. But even if its not quite true, I understand that finding someone else to design it would still be a huge task.

Also, i meant the mojo being the ultimate in an easily pocketable, portable device. Obviously desktop amps will have the potential for greater sophistication than something the size of a pack of smokes that runs on a battery.

 

[x RELIC x]

Thanks for the perspective. I still think that the idea that Mr Watts is the sole person capable of producing such a thing is, at least in part, drawn by speculation and presumption. But even if its not quite true, I understand that finding someone else to design it would still be a huge task.

Also, i meant the mojo being the ultimate in an easily pocketable, portable device. Obviously desktop amps will have the potential for greater sophistication than something the size of a pack of smokes that runs on a battery.

I think you misunderstand me. I never said he was the only one capable of doing this. He is the only one currently doing this (and in his way) and it's taken him years to get here. As I said earlier, there are other manufacturers that also are implementing FPGA chips in their DAC designs, just not in the same way with no where near the same accolades, therefore it's an example of why it's a huge risk for FiiO to do the same.

 

[f4phantom2500]

I think you misunderstand me. I never said he was the only one capable of doing this. He is the only one currently doing this (and in his way) and it's taken him years to get here. As I said earlier, there are other manufacturers that also are implementing FPGA chips in their DAC designs, just not in the same way with no where near the same accolades, therefore it's an example of why it's a huge risk for FiiO to do the same.

 
 
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Perhaps someday the technology will proliferate. Seems it's mostly a combination of the right people not being in the right place and/or there's no drive for any capable team to produce it...except at Chord. That was my suspicion, I just wonder how much prodding/pushing it would take from a company/companies like FiiO for the market to respond.

 

[masterpfa]

   
 
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Perhaps someday the technology will proliferate. Seems it's mostly a combination of the right people not being in the right place and/or there's no drive for any capable team to produce it...except at Chord. That was my suspicion, I just wonder how much prodding/pushing it would take from a company/companies like FiiO for the market to respond.

If you ever get to see this videos you will see that this is a man who had a genuine interest in electronics he met his business partner John Franks who specialises in Aviation electronics and together with expertise in electronics and audio pursued their quest for audio on a personal basis.
You may find that most companies especially the larger established companies seek to pursue profit over perfection and I guess in goals that is where Chord as a company differ, IMO and from I have read and heard.
The gauntlet has been laid down for other companies to do likewise.
 
EDIT:No need to watch the entire video their early history is discussed within the 1st 5 mins

 

[Westerborn]

I think the thing to take away from this discussion is that FiiO are not Chord. As Relic eloquently pointed out it's the same technology from different perspectives. My personal FiiO experience has been one of an accessible entry to the audiophile world, from E06 to E11k to X1 and beyond; that's the market I believe FiiO is aiming at. Chord on the other hand are a mythical brand that I would love to get my hands on and experience, if only I could afford to. The markets these companies are aiming at are very different. If the cost of hiring someone to code a FPGA chip goes right down then maybe FiiO would be tempted, but then what would separate them from Chord? Considering that the Q5 is likely going to be around the £100-150 mark (being the successor to the E18) then I'm fairly sure there will be endless reasons to buy, regardless of third party chip.

 

[ClieOS]

Chord is an interesting company with a very interesting technology (and if I might add, with a rather odd taste in industry design), but I personally don't think of its portable DAC/amp line as the be-all-end-all of all portable DAC/amp. With the right design, any portable DAC/amp manufacturer that doesn't use a FPGA but rather an off-the-shelf DAC can come out with a portable DAC/amp that is just as good as Chord's offering. So instead of having a wild goose chase over some FPGA technology that one isn't familiar with, it is far wiser to optimize what one does know to the best of what it can be. Even Chord will admit that the FPGA in Mojo is not perfect, or else there won't be the need to use a much higher end (and much pricier) FPGA in Dave. So there are still room for improvement for every manufacturers when it comes to portable DAC/amp, and FPGA is not the only answer to the question.

 

[f4phantom2500]

Chord is an interesting company with a very interesting technology (and if I might add, with a rather odd taste in industry design), but I personally don't think of its portable DAC/amp line as the be-all-end-all of all portable DAC/amp. With the right design, any portable DAC/amp manufacturer that doesn't use a FPGA but rather an off-the-shelf DAC can come out with a portable DAC/amp that is just as good as Chord's offering. So instead of having a wild goose chase over some FPGA technology that one isn't familiar with, it is far wiser to optimize what one does know to the best of what it can be. Even Chord will admit that the FPGA in Mojo is not perfect, or else there won't be the need to use a much higher end (and much pricier) FPGA in Dave. So there are still room for improvement for every manufacturers when it comes to portable DAC/amp, and FPGA is not the only answer to the question.

That is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping someone would say. I would love for there to be a way for FiiO to make a product competitive with the MoJo SQ-wise. While Chord may come from a different market perspective and design philosophy than FiiO, the simple truth is that Chord is still bringing down the cost of entry to its product line drastically with the MoJo, at a price point that isn't too unreasonable. Hell, FiiO's own X7 is more expensive than the MoJo, showing that these two segments can overlap. And that's why FiiO should strive to equal or best the MoJo with the Q5.

 

[x RELIC x]

In all fairness the X7 sounds fantastic and without very sophisticated measuring equipment you be hard pressed to define the gap in technical capabilities between the X7 and the Mojo. I had both at the same time and the X7 already sounded fantastic, but different at the ears. Some might prefer to listen to the X7, some to the Mojo. That's why I've been saying don't worry about the underlying tech and I don't think it's necessary for FiiO to take the risk to change their formula since they haven't built their success on proprietary tech. FiiO has always offered great sound quality for the price and I'm sure the Q5 will be the same....