FiiO Q5, Flagship DAC/Amp, an Dual DAC, USB/Optical/Coaxial/Line in, share the same amp module with X7.
Jun 10, 2018 at 5:50 PM Post #2,191 of 3,173
... So you guys don't have to question me how and why I'm using the 2.5mm output. That's not the point.
Absolutely, you are completely correct. I think the point I would take away from this is that while it may have been making a design decision/compromise, ultimately I suspect as Brooko was intonating, FiiO was likely willing to gamble that a tiny percentage of Q5 customers would be using highly sensitive IEM via the 2.5 output. We can wax on about whether it was cutting corners, good or bad design compromise whatever, but I suspect that is what was behind it. Likely when they were doing the design in order to meet the design requirements for what they deemed would be I'm sure the vast majority of users with less sensitive headphones, they probably found there was a sacrifice that would cause the extra noise as you are finding it. I'm of course speculating, but we know that FiiO is perfectly capable of designing and bringing to market low noise floor designs so they had to have intentionally made a design decision, that is my belief. I doubt they missed it, but that is of course possible.

And of course, again, I'm speculating. I have no way of knowing what if anything FiiO engineers were thinking or anything about their design process/decision making.
 
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Jun 10, 2018 at 7:08 PM Post #2,192 of 3,173
I just tried to update my Q5 to the latest firmware (v052) on windows 10 and it keeps failing.

Entering upgrade mode....
TUSBAUDIO_getDfuStatus: function failed with error code 0xEE000003.

Firmware upgrade failed!

Any thoughts?
 
Jun 10, 2018 at 9:01 PM Post #2,193 of 3,173
Hey Bram

Definitely not trying to close anything down - and I'll let FiiO come back to you. Was simply putting my 2c worth into the conversation - regarding where I think the measurements are influenced.

I'd be curious how slew rate affects actual audible output in an IEM - so if you have any data on that, please feel free to post or PM me. As far as crosstalk goes - you might find this interesting (off topic and spoilered):

The specs will actually tell you more than your hearing will. Take the Q5's default balanced module.

It'll put 24mW into a 300 ohm load SE but 93 mW into the same load balanced. The voltage is also up. So if you're driving a load which requires a lot of voltage and is reasonably high impedance (eg like an HD650) there will be benefits. Not in the architecture, but in the power.

Look at the same load into an IEM though - say around 16 ohm. SE is 230 mW and balanced is 470 mW. Balanced must be better right? Not really. Balanced will chew the battery quicker, and both outputs would drive practically any IEM into the regions of deafening you. And its the same for the 32ohm load. Both are essentially over-kill.

Now lets look at the real differences - those bits that people make claims on. Remember how balanced is always cleaner, darker, more spacious, wider sound-stage ....... :) Lets look at cleaner first. SNR on SE is 115 dB and on balanced is 115 dB. Both are beyond what we can hear - so no difference. Both have THD measurements at 0.001% = beyond our hearing. You'll get a magnitude more distortion from your earphones. Now the important one - crosstalk (channel separation). SE is 73 dB and balanced is 99 dB. That must make a big difference - right?

I'm going to quote something bookmarked a long time ago:
The FCC minimum channel separation/crosstalk spec for FM Stereo used to be 29.7dB...yes, that's right, 29.7. It had to do with how the signal was generated and handled, but 30 - 40dB wasn't hard to achieve, and 50dB wasn't uncommon.

The bulk of what is perceived as stereo separation happens above 20dB with decreasing detectable improvements above 30dB or so. It's almost impossible to detect separation improvements above 40dB. Localization of a phantom image depends less on channel separation and much more on relative intensity and inter-aural time delay of the sound, and human hearing response at different angles.
So....long answer...separation above 40dB doesn't improve sound quality, below 40dB it slowly degrades, the final separation is equal to the device with the least separation in the system. Once degraded by a device, no device following it can restore separation.
As you can see, SE crosstalk at 73 dB and balanced at 99 dB actually means nothing - we can't hear it.

What essentially happens is two things.
  • People read the specs, and tell themselves balanced must sound better, and thats what they talk themselves into. In a blind volume matched test, they won't tell a difference.
  • Most people don't volume match, and we are terrible at volume matching by ear (which is what a lot of people do). Most balanced circuits output a lot more power by design - therefore they are louder. People saying they hear a difference are often simply listening to one louder than the other. And we know louder is perceived as sounding better.
There are two other possibilities for differences:
  • The balanced circuit actually sounds better (or worse) by design (unlikely given FiiO's expertise)
  • Impedance mismatch can affect frequency response for multi-BA driver set-ups (rarely happens with dynamics). You'll note the 1.4 ohm (SE) vs 2.0 ohm (bal) output.
In your case Bram - why wouldn't you simply use the SE output for IEMs and Balanced for full sized (which is what I do). I know you paid for it - but getting the balanced ultra-quiet for a use which essentially has no real purpose seems strange to me if it means they have to cut power output o the balanced supply. they did that with the X5iii and got slayed for it. balanced output was really quiet - it had no power for full sized cans though.

Checks and balances my friend - interested in that info on slew rate though. I couldn't find any info on it being audible. And using the balanced out with ultra-sensitive IEMs seems counter-productive when most will eb multiple BA,a nd the impedance will cause freq change anyway.
 
Jun 10, 2018 at 9:37 PM Post #2,194 of 3,173
Absolutely, you are completely correct. I think the point I would take away from this is that while it may have been making a design decision/compromise, ultimately I suspect as Brooko was intonating, FiiO was likely willing to gamble that a tiny percentage of Q5 customers would be using highly sensitive IEM via the 2.5 output.

To be fair to Fiio and other manufacturers, it is true not many IEMs have around 119 dB/mW sensitivity, and I agree it is impractical in some ways. But it is just happened that 1964 V3 universal is just a very good sounding IEM to my personal preference, that I can still afford. Bought it few years back.
I hope Fiio engineers can bring down the noise of the balanced output to at least match the SNR of the unbalanced output. I believe they are very capable engineers.

Hey Bram

Definitely not trying to close anything down - and I'll let FiiO come back to you. Was simply putting my 2c worth into the conversation - regarding where I think the measurements are influenced.

I'd be curious how slew rate affects actual audible output in an IEM - so if you have any data on that, please feel free to post or PM me. As far as crosstalk goes - you might find this interesting (off topic and spoilered):

Thanks Paul! I know many things that sounds good in theory may not really make any significant audible effect. But we shouldn't stop at one or two testing. Sometime we only hear the significant different on some odd setup. I have not done any auditory test on slew rate, but I do hear small differences between unbalanced and balanced. Not sure if it is caused by slew rate, crosstalk, or other factor. Anyway the point is I wish Fiio could match the SNR of AM3A balanced output to be as good as the unbalanced output. That's it.
 
Jun 11, 2018 at 4:20 AM Post #2,195 of 3,173
I managed to get the firmware update happening, but the drivers to allow updating the Bluetooth wont install either on Win10 or Win7.
 
Jun 11, 2018 at 5:54 AM Post #2,196 of 3,173
I managed to get the firmware update happening, but the drivers to allow updating the Bluetooth wont install either on Win10 or Win7.

Laptop or PC Amos? I used my PC and couldn't see the drivers - then realised the PC had no Bluetooth dongle - so Windows wasn't loading the driver. Plugged a dongle - and it was recognised straight away. That allowed me to update the driver and continue with the Bluetooth upgrade. I think FiiO definitely needs to find an easier way to deliver it in future.
 
Jun 11, 2018 at 8:26 AM Post #2,197 of 3,173
Laptop or PC Amos? I used my PC and couldn't see the drivers - then realised the PC had no Bluetooth dongle - so Windows wasn't loading the driver. Plugged a dongle - and it was recognised straight away. That allowed me to update the driver and continue with the Bluetooth upgrade. I think FiiO definitely needs to find an easier way to deliver it in future.

That might explain things. I'll give that a go. Thanks.
 
Jun 11, 2018 at 8:36 AM Post #2,198 of 3,173
That might explain things. I'll give that a go. Thanks.
I at first had the same issue with my laptop and realized that once I turned Bluetooth on within my settings the update went smoothly. Good luck with it.
 
Jun 11, 2018 at 11:52 PM Post #2,199 of 3,173
Laptop or PC Amos? I used my PC and couldn't see the drivers - then realised the PC had no Bluetooth dongle - so Windows wasn't loading the driver. Plugged a dongle - and it was recognised straight away. That allowed me to update the driver and continue with the Bluetooth upgrade. I think FiiO definitely needs to find an easier way to deliver it in future.

If I plug in the Q5 via the charging point to any computer, it isn't recognised as even existing.
 
Jun 14, 2018 at 4:43 AM Post #2,200 of 3,173
I managed to get the firmware update happening, but the drivers to allow updating the Bluetooth wont install either on Win10 or Win7.
Dear friend,

Do you mean that the DPInst.exe can not be run in your Win7 or Win10 computer? What information would you receive?

Best regards
 
FiiO Stay updated on FiiO at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/FiiOAUDIO https://twitter.com/FiiO_official https://www.instagram.com/fiioofficial/ https://www.fiio.com support@fiio.com
Jun 14, 2018 at 4:51 AM Post #2,201 of 3,173
I just tried to update my Q5 to the latest firmware (v052) on windows 10 and it keeps failing.

Entering upgrade mode....
TUSBAUDIO_getDfuStatus: function failed with error code 0xEE000003.

Firmware upgrade failed!

Any thoughts?
Dear friend,

Please try to uninstall the DAC driver and then restart your PC. Then reinstall the DAC driver and try to update follow the instruction. We recevied same feedback solved in this way by one other user before.

Best regards
 
FiiO Stay updated on FiiO at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/FiiOAUDIO https://twitter.com/FiiO_official https://www.instagram.com/fiioofficial/ https://www.fiio.com support@fiio.com
Jun 14, 2018 at 7:32 AM Post #2,202 of 3,173
This fw situation is such a joke. Just make the process simpler. No reason why any competent professional organisation can't. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, and it's even that plain obvious to me.
 
Jun 14, 2018 at 11:50 PM Post #2,204 of 3,173
Dear friend,

Please try to uninstall the DAC driver and then restart your PC. Then reinstall the DAC driver and try to update follow the instruction. We recevied same feedback solved in this way by one other user before.

Best regards

Fiio, that was me that sent the feedback. :alien:

I now realize what I did wrong. I wasn't in upgrade mode. The update tool wasn't showing v0.04 (update mode), it was showing v0.47 which is the current firmware version.

I thought I had held the "Next Track" before connecting the device to USB, but the device wasn't entering update mode. My fault. :angry:

Thanks!
 
Jun 15, 2018 at 4:29 AM Post #2,205 of 3,173
Fiio, that was me that sent the feedback. :alien:

I now realize what I did wrong. I wasn't in upgrade mode. The update tool wasn't showing v0.04 (update mode), it was showing v0.47 which is the current firmware version.

I thought I had held the "Next Track" before connecting the device to USB, but the device wasn't entering update mode. My fault. :angry:

Thanks!

:ksc75smile:Anyway, glad to hear you have updated successfully now.
 
FiiO Stay updated on FiiO at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/FiiOAUDIO https://twitter.com/FiiO_official https://www.instagram.com/fiioofficial/ https://www.fiio.com support@fiio.com

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