[Electrocrytic]

Hiby replace them and the problem goes away

 

[ddlo]

Dear friend,

Sorry about that. Please try to contact your local seller about that. If the seller fails to help, please contact support@fiio.com with the receipt attached.

Best regards

oh thanks. i've contacted my local agent and they immediately reached out to me. they'll replace the battery once the spare parts are ready.

 

[ddlo]

@ddlo , that Li-ion bulging battery should be removed asap from the M17 - before the battery pops and ruins the M17, or burns your house down...

The swelling battery isn't safe to ship either! I hope your agent is close by, or find a local shop with experience removing a swelling Li-ion battery, like a PC Repair shop or other consumer electronics repair shop. If you don't know anyone, call your local fire department and explain the situation and ask them for recommendations where that battery can be safely removed and safely disposed.

I wouldn't leave your M17 with a swelling battery that has so much pressure it breached the fasteners of the case - as it is probably continuing to swell right now - sitting on or near anything flammable.

Lithium-ion battery swelling get worse over time, and the building pressure can pop the containment, or the swelling can cause the layers of the battery to split/open up and fail, causing the conductive elements to meet and short, resulting in a Lithium Ion Battery Explosion - like those Samsung Note 7 Lithium Ion batteries that swelled and exploded. Physically exposed LiPo batteries are more vulnerable to damage causing them to fail more often, and are just as explosive.

If you have a LiPo burn bag handy, or know someone that does - ordering and waiting for delivery of one might not be fast enough. Your M17 would be safer in a burn bag than sitting on a surface that will burn if that M17 battery blows.

The safest would be to put the M17 outdoors on a concrete block or slab , inside a Lipo Burn Bag, away from any buildings. The middle of the garage concrete slab would be 2nd best, but the outgassing and smoke from a fire would soon fill up the garage, and if you have an air vent connected to the garage from the house the smoke might be drawn into the house.

@FiiO would want the info off of the swelling battery - to track the manufacturing run the battery and that M17 came from - as others made in those batches might also be affected similarly. Where there is one, there are often more, especially since it was sealed into a closed unit that couldn't have been damaged by a puncture after manufacture.

Even though your local agent is solving your Lithium Battery Swelling replacement, @FiiO can benefit from the battery/M17 production batch info. The agent might pass it on, but then again they might not...

@FiiO - FiiO has been great at designing battery / power supplies and software/firmware that "do the right thing", and my M15/BTR5/BTR3k's all hold their full battery charge when off of the charger for a long long time.

I would expect all the batteries in the M17 would also hold their charges over time.

thanks for the very informative safety advice! i'm not using or getting my m17 charge so hopefully the situation wouldn't getting any worse. my local agent is nice and told me they expect to receive the spare part for replacement this weekend or early next week.

 

[searchingtom]

New review:

https://www.ecoustics.com/reviews/fiio-m17/

 

[e-dub]

Listening to a DSD rip of the Thriller SACD on the M17 and my Signature DJ. I know they're not the ideal 'phone to listen to something like this, but... DAMN! First time I've ever listened to this high-quality a file before and I'm blown away.

 

[The1Signature]

Qobuz bypasses SRC on the M17, at least through coaxial output

are there any news in terms of using the native qobuz app that bypasses the SRC - without coaxial output, so just using it as a DAP with battery mode and my meze empyrean?

i don't know why but i always try to avoid uapp because the songs sound just different.

tidal announced the bypassing with an update a while ago but i couldn't find any news from qobuz.

 

[hmscott]

thanks for the very informative safety advice! i'm not using or getting my m17 charge so hopefully the situation wouldn't getting any worse. my local agent is nice and told me they expect to receive the spare part for replacement this weekend or early next week.

Yeah, it is hard to connect with the possibilities, that is why I was trying to provide enough information to help you realize the dangers, but it looks like you got from it that it only happens when charging, and well, it can happen when it is just "sitting there" all by itself without being connected to external power too.

Phone explodes in man pocket

Samsung Phone explodes in Pocket
​

The process is chemical and although heat and power play a large part in initiating the problem, once started it can continue to "rise" and if a sharp edge / puncture or material failure occurs during the expansion which happens even after power is removed, you can still experience the catestrophic result.

The Samsung Note 7 battery failure due to the battery manufacturing problem caused it to be distributed world-wide so there are now a lot of "visuals" showing what can happen to Li-ion/LiPo batteries not under charge.

There were spontaneous battery failures while not on charge, and so I am including a summary article on those failures:

​

Samsung Finally Explains the Galaxy Note 7 Exploding Battery Mess
Three months after Samsung killed production of the fire-starting Galaxy Note 7 smartphone, the company is now ready to explain what went wrong.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-n...-galaxy-note-7-exploding-battery-mess-n710581

Samsung Issues New Warning for Galaxy Note 7s
​

This video covers what the physical problem was that caused the failure, conforming the battery physically to a curved internal structure of the phone, instead of designing the internals of the battery straight to conform to the needs of the battery, they "forced it" into a curve, and that caused the +/- plates to "touch". At first Samsung thought it was a battery manufacturing problem, but then when multiple manufacturers' batteries failed, they finally realized it was the "bending" of the battery plates at the corner that caused the failures.

Samsungs Verdict on the Note 7 - What REALLY went wrong?
​

@FiiO, if you had to conform the M17 batteries to internal cavaties, you didn't do a similar "forced" method to make them conform did you?

My Note 10, S20 Ultra, and S22 Ultra have never had a battery swelling, nor have my dozens of Lipo and Li-ion batteries, but I do keep many in fire proof bags designed for Lipo batteries to contain the smoke and fire should they fail.

I hope your swelling battery and M17 have no further problem too... btw, does it feel "warm" to the touch?

Please let us know how it works out

 

[m8o]

thanks for the very informative safety advice! i'm not using or getting my m17 charge so hopefully the situation wouldn't getting any worse. my local agent is nice and told me they expect to receive the spare part for replacement this weekend or early next week.

Btw, when you left it and didn't use it for a few weeks, what was the battery level? 100% or something else? I may just let mine drain from 100% andet it rest at aomething lower regardless.

 

[hmscott]

Btw, when you left it and didn't use it for a few weeks, what was the battery level? 100% or something else? I may just let mine drain from 100% andet it rest at aomething lower regardless.

AFAIK it doesn't matter the level of the charge for a physical breakdown/incursion type failure, it can happen at any level of charge.

There are indeed "overcharge" failures as well, but that would be well beyond 100% - if your device has a 100% charge that means it isn't overcharged, and the BMS is keeping the battery within it's "limits" and is AOK.

The reason to keep the Li-Ion battery at or below 80% - famously Teslas do this as an option for the driver/owner to keep it at 80% to avoid "wear" as charging the last 20% usually heats up the battery "more" than the preceding 80% charging - which is why it is fast to charge to 80% and then the last 20% takes longer as the BMS reduces the Amperage "load" on the battery when it is most vunerable to "wear".

My new Samsung S22 Ultra has a similar 85% option, and by default will "throttle" most applications to keep the battery load lower than the CPU/GPU maximum performance load can put on the battery, all intended to preserve the life of the battery.

I disabled all of the Samsung Android 12 performance limits and the S22 Ultra does get really hot about 25% of the way down from the top of the phone, as the center focus of heat generation. Android OS 12 does run a lot faster in general though, I'm balancing the OS settings vs performance vs battery heat/discharge rate.

IDK if the M17 has an option to limit the charge to stop at 80%, but that might be a good thing to add @FiiO, to prolong battery life.

Also, I found this interesting "unboxing" of the return package for the Samsung Note 7, with "ceramic" coated interior... Samsung probably should have still used a "burn bag" instead of an "anti-static" bag to help contain the smoke and fire instead of relying on that coating.

How do you ship EXPLODING PHONES!? - Note 7
​

Update: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fii...-0-updates-at-2022-04-29.954441/post-16971980

 

[ddlo]

Btw, when you left it and didn't use it for a few weeks, what was the battery level? 100% or something else? I may just let mine drain from 100% andet it rest at aomething lower regardless.

i played slightly <1hr before i went to bed the last time i used it (maybe last friday). i think it should be left with like 8x% battery. i didn't aware of the bulging when i last used it so i assume it happened sometime this week.

 

[ddlo]

Yeah, it is hard to connect with the possibilities, that is why I was trying to provide enough information to help you realize the dangers, but it looks like you got from it that it only happens when charging, and well, it can happen when it is just "sitting there" all by itself without being connected to external power too.

Phone explodes in man pocket

Samsung Phone explodes in Pocket
​

The process is chemical and although heat and power play a large part in initiating the problem, once started it can continue to "rise" and if a sharp edge / puncture or material failure occurs during the expansion which happens even after power is removed, you can still experience the catestrophic result.

The Samsung Note 7 battery failure due to the battery manufacturing problem caused it to be distributed world-wide so there are now a lot of "visuals" showing what can happen to Li-ion/LiPo batteries not under charge.

There were spontaneous battery failures while not on charge, and so I am including a summary article on those failures:

Samsung Issues New Warning for Galaxy Note 7s
​

Samsung Finally Explains the Galaxy Note 7 Exploding Battery Mess
Three months after Samsung killed production of the fire-starting Galaxy Note 7 smartphone, the company is now ready to explain what went wrong.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-n...-galaxy-note-7-exploding-battery-mess-n710581

This video covers what the physical problem was that caused the failure, conforming the battery phisically to the phone internal structure, instead of designing the internals of the battery to the curve they "forced it", and caused the +/- plates to "touch".

Samsungs Verdict on the Note 7 - What REALLY went wrong?
​

@FiiO you had to conform the M17 batteries to internal cavaties, you didn't do similar "forced" method to make them fit did you?

My Note 10, S20 Ultra, and S22 Ultra have never had a battery swelling, nor have my dozens of Lipo and Li-ion batteries, but I do keep many in fire proof bags designed for Lipo batteries to contain the smoke and fire should they fail.

I hope your swelling battery and M17 have no further problem too... btw, does it feel "warm" to the touch?

Please let us know how it works out

yes indeed and thanks again for the reminder. i read quite a lot of news reporting power banks or phones went on fire spontaneously but my impressions is most of such cases are about devices been used for some times and fairly rare for relatively new devices (except the note 7 design issue). i don't have a protection bag in hand so can just put it aside and hope it's not going to be that bad

 

[Currawong]

My (somewhat delayed) review of the M17 is now online.

 

[hmscott]

Btw, when you left it and didn't use it for a few weeks, what was the battery level? 100% or something else? I may just let mine drain from 100% andet it rest at aomething lower regardless.

On second thought I don't know the battery design or layout of the M17, so IDK if the M17 uses multi-cell battery design that can cause the individual cells to discharge at different rates and that in itself can be a cause for failure with LiPo cells. Again, not sure how @FiiO has designed the cells to interoperate in the M17.

I didn't think that through before, it could indeed be that charging to 100% and then storing the device disconnected and powered off could cause problems with some devices/batteries. That is why we remove batteries from our aircraft, and check their individual cell voltages and discharge them to safe shelf voltages before storing them separated from the device they power.

So leaving the M17 fully charged at 100% and then leaving it sit for weeks without letting it power on to rebalance the cells, might not be a good idea. Usually the BMS and device design have considered all of the potential use scenarios in their design, so they are safe for consumers to use in any normal usage. I would expect FiiO to have done the same in the design of the M17 battery/BMS system.

With multi-cell LiPo's we have to maintain cell balance voltages while in storage. I have to manually maintain my stored batteries as they are not on a charger or in a powered on device that can constantly re-balance the cells and maintain them at their safe storage voltage per cell (3.4v-3.8v). When charged for use 1S-6S batteries are charged to 4.2v-4.35v per cell (selected for device use/design) and if not flown they must be discharged to 3.4v-3.8v as a storage/shelf charge before storage.

With normal use the batteries are flown regularly and we use balanced chargers for 2S-6S cell batteries before/after every flight, When stored we have to manually maintain the batteries about every 3-6 months when not in flying/use rotation. This pandemic has been hell on batteries as flying fields have been closed down for so long some of the batteries I bought just before the pandemic still haven't been flown, but I've maintained them several times.

The battery cells can "float" and self-discharge at differing rates, so over time one cell can be higher/lower than it's compatriots, and that can cause problems when using them again if they aren't rebalanced before use - one cell or another may be overdrawn compared to the others and generate a lot of extra heat which can exacerbate any flaws in the battery, causing a failure.

The M17 should be designed for this contingency of charging to 100% and then powering off the device for weeks or months, for safe storage - without the owner needing to worry about discharging the cells to 3.4v-3.8v or rebalancing a multi-cell design, but that is a question for @FiiO

An overview of the safe handling practices with LiPo batteries, which might? pertain to Li-ion batteries if the BMS can't maintain the cells due to being unpowered/offline.

A new battery on well designed BMS firmware shouldn't cause a battery to swell like it did in that particular M17.

Thanks for asking that question, I have in the past always suggested leaving laptops and other battery devices on chargers while in use so their BMS can balance the cells and maintain safe voltages, I suppose the M17 is no different.

Of course, when your battery is in mid-failure - swelling - remove it from power as the cell is already failing, and there is nothing a BMS can safely do about it. And, trying to discharge the battery to a safe storage voltage is also not safe on a battery that is already mid-failure.

 

[The1Signature]

So, M17 and external DAC’s issues… No issues here
I have been playing tracks all day and other than a little click on first initialisation (FiiO app only) It has been smooth sailing.
You guys either got two lemons (rare but, possible) or more likely, You guys are not doing it right.
Please be aware, I will restrict the video in 24 hours.

fyi: the video is still online.

i wanted to buy the sony TA-ZH1ES. does anybody tried to use the usb dac mode towards the sony?

i read that when using the left usb slot, one cannot charge but it will probably work - usb-c to usb-b.

when using the right usb slot, one can charge the m17, but there is no guarantee that it will work with the end device.

it would be important to know that both fit and wok together well.

i will mostly use usb-c (fiio) to usb-b (sony) cable. although most of my albums from qobuz are 24 bit / max 192hz - so a coax cable could do the job, too.

 

[Currawong]

i wanted to buy the sony TA-ZH1ES. does anybody tried to use the usb dac mode towards the sony?

USB DAC mode is for using the M17 as a DAC, not an external DAC. In USB DAC mode, you'd use the 3.5mm or 6.3mm output to the TA-ZH1ES Line In.