[mordy]

Hey guys!
Just wanted to thank all of you guys that been sharing your tube rolling passion. I have read the whole thread since I was thinking to get the Euforia to use with my soon to arrive Meze Empyrean. At the moment I changed my mind however and will try out a non-tube amp instead.

Soo thanks..its been fun reading.

You get an A for effort! - it is a long thread!

 

[Taojump]

You get an A for effort! - it is a long thread!

Sure is, took me two weeks. But I do however have a lot of knowledge about tubes now, it's a shame I probably never will have any use for that knowledge.

I decided to go down the easy road with non-tubes, tubes are sexy and all but I feel that it will be too much of a fuzz for me to get good tubes.

 

[mordy]

Jag trodde alltid detta ocksa, men det ar mycket lattare an du tror.

 

[triggsviola]

Jag trodde alltid detta ocksa, men det ar mycket lattare an du tror.

Is this more audiophile jargon that I pretend to understand?

 

[Taojump]

Yeah its the Swedish version, its the next level. Turns out that gear sound better if you talk Swedish to it

 

[mordy]

Is this more audiophile jargon that I pretend to understand?

Even though I left Sweden (where I grew up) 52 years ago, I still speak Swedish.
Seeing that Taojump resides in Sweden I decided to answer in Swedish.
He mentioned that he thought that it would be too much of a difficulty to get good tubes.
My answer was: I always thought so as well, but it is much easier than you think.
Speaking about audiophile jargon, I just now tried to look up what Cathode poisoning means.....

 

[hypnos1]

Very impressive rescue of ol' 39!

Thanks mordy...years of trying to master the use of a soldering iron - which started only when getting hooked on this hobby of ours - has certainly paid dividends in more ways than one lol! I heartily recommend anyone to at least give it a try......(but advise caution and patience....and yet more patience!! )...

 

[Johnnysound]

Hi J...no absolute values indeed, but as @mordy says, at least we're on safer ground with the same amp used lol! But what I would add is that certain tubes definitely keep upping their game exponentially in concert with the quality of the rest of one's gear, and I personally believe this applies especially to our use of 'unconventional'/unconfigured-for triode-strapped pentodes. And most of all to the latest EL38s and EL39s. For some strange (but wonderful!) reason, our amps - especially Euforia - seem able to squeeze ever more from these tubes...to the point where I simply can't imagine an amp specifically configured for these tubes delivering a significantly better sound (unless built using horrendously expensive components!! ). So we are very fortunate indeed that we can in fact enjoy these particular tubes especially to such advantage...and I for one am especially glad that with these tubes in place, I feel no need whatsoever for either a multiple array of tubes, or the (hotly debated!) need(?) for tube rectification...it's complex - and costly! - enough experimenting with different combinations of driver and power tubes to find the sound that suits our preferences, without adding yet further variables into the mix IMHO lol!

And yes, I can well imagine that 4x EL38s would benefit from (nay need) the kind of driving that comes from the German design of EL11. And it's very interesting that when I first experimented with this tube, the East German RFT brand was a good bit cheaper than pretty well any other version. And yet now, some of the prices being asked are quite (ridiculously?!) extortionate......??? But although these are excellent performers in Euforia for hp use, I suspect the Valvos would indeed appeal just a bit more to most folks' tastes. But whichever version is chosen, I do believe that there's a special 'relationship' going on between the EL11 as driver to the EL38/EL39 as power...no question!!

Yes, we’re indeed on safer ground with the same amp used, but even with the same amp it was amazing how the EL11 tubes performed differently in Euforia with HPs or as a preamp...in my system of course. As we roll tubes in Euforia to optimize it for our favorite headphones, the same can be said for the particular PA used, and my Jolida Fusion with 4xEL38s powers on it is a demanding animal (not to mention the splendor of 4xEL39s). Since I have “only” four EL39s I (reluctantly) opted to use a pair in Euforia, and the mix with the power 38s resulted phenomenal: at last a preamp power tube able to fully control the wild bass of the EL38s, with dynamics and precision. With all six heavyweights down the chain, you need neutral , clear, precise drivers upfront on the preamp. Having tried many types (and as you said, for some strange reason) the EL11s of any brand showed (on the whole) simply superior synergy with both the EL38s and EL39s.

BTW, fitting such “thoroughbreds” on the power amp created a real problem with the “phase inverters”, (the single stage between the pre and power tubes), because the whole sound, bass, tended to be either unsatisfactory or way over the top with the majority of tubes, even highly regarded ones. Unexpectedly, the humble RFTs ECC81s, (at $10 each) made the 38s and 39s sound at their best. Mysteries of tubes...and while looking around found a pair of NOS “holy grail” TFK ECC801S ($150 each) rebranded as Siemens for $80 the pair...great tubes.

So the “relativity” of tubes is allways there: 4xEL39s in the power amp, driven by Euforia with EL11s plus “black glass” early Mullard EL38s sounded, well...astonishingly good, albeit different. The 39s are powerful tubes, and their sound as pentodes (as designed) is way biased into strict neutrality and accuracy, with impactful bass & dynamics. They need a long burn in to open up tough, and only after that they came close to the “triode like” musicality & wide bandwidth openness of the EL38s (that may have “looser” bass, but really deep and expressive) being IMHO very hard to beat as power tubes. Fully matured, the 39s were truly magnificent in their own way...and I felt that Euforia (with the 38s) offered the precise balance...which combo to choose ? difficult question, but this is why this hobby can be so fun, isn’t it ?

 

[hypnos1]

Yes, we’re indeed on safer ground with the same amp used, but even with the same amp it was amazing how the EL11 tubes performed differently in Euforia with HPs or as a preamp...in my system of course. As we roll tubes in Euforia to optimize it for our favorite headphones, the same can be said for the particular PA used, and my Jolida Fusion with 4xEL38s powers on it is a demanding animal (not to mention the splendor of 4xEL39s). Since I have “only” four EL39s I (reluctantly) opted to use a pair in Euforia, and the mix with the power 38s resulted phenomenal: at last a preamp power tube able to fully control the wild bass of the EL38s, with dynamics and precision. With all six heavyweights down the chain, you need neutral , clear, precise drivers upfront on the preamp. Having tried many types (and as you said, for some strange reason) the EL11s of any brand showed (on the whole) simply superior synergy with both the EL38s and EL39s.

BTW, fitting such “thoroughbreds” on the power amp created a real problem with the “phase inverters”, (the single stage between the pre and power tubes), because the whole sound, bass, tended to be either unsatisfactory or way over the top with the majority of tubes, even highly regarded ones. Unexpectedly, the humble RFTs ECC81s, (at $10 each) made the 38s and 39s sound at their best. Mysteries of tubes...and while looking around found a pair of NOS “holy grail” TFK ECC801S ($150 each) rebranded as Siemens for $80 the pair...great tubes.

So the “relativity” of tubes is allways there: 4xEL39s in the power amp, driven by Euforia with EL11s plus “black glass” early Mullard EL38s sounded, well...astonishingly good, albeit different. The 39s are powerful tubes, and their sound as pentodes (as designed) is way biased into strict neutrality and accuracy, with impactful bass & dynamics. They need a long burn in to open up tough, and only after that they came close to the “triode like” musicality & wide bandwidth openness of the EL38s (that may have “looser” bass, but really deep and expressive) being IMHO very hard to beat as power tubes. Fully matured, the 39s were truly magnificent in their own way...and I felt that Euforia (with the 38s) offered the precise balance...which combo to choose ? difficult question, but this is why this hobby can be so fun, isn’t it ?

Hi J...fun indeed...but can also be very frustrating at one and the same time lol! But then, any endeavour worth its salt must include this element and be endured...(and mastered if at all possible! ).

You certainly have enough 'wundertubes' now to be enjoying stellar sound from both headphones and speakers...I can't begin to imagine what your PA would deliver with 4x EL39s and 2x EL39s as powers in Euforia, driven by the EL11s (possibly the Valvos excelling this time, instead of the RFTs?). Glad too that you managed to remedy the 'phase inverter' problem...would have been a tragedy otherwise lol!

Anyway, inspired by your results with Euforia/EL11/EL39 combo as preamp, I decided to see if my poor little Dynaudio Focus 110s would be able to handle the amazing bass of the 'special' Mazda EL38 partnering a 39 as powers, via my Vincent SV121 integrated SS amp. Well, all I can say is...I need some really nice floorstanders!!! Although these small standmounts sounded amazingly good - for their size and price - it was obvious Euforia + Vincent combo is capable of FAR more. Trouble is, I'd hardly ever be able to use them to full advantage alas (better half syndrome!)...hence my foray into headphone use. And because I have to place the speakers fairly close to the walls, I simply had to put in the back port bungs...which may tame the bass, but also takes away other elements of the sound delivery, I find .

What did fascinate me however was that after the wonderful separation/placement/wide, 3D soundstage of my HP system (especially with the Empyreans), I didn't really enjoy the speaker experience as much as before without moving closer to them to gain more of said hp (side-to-side) delivery!! So I'm now more content than ever to stick with the cans lol ...CHEERS!...CJ

 

[Johnnysound]

“What did fascinate me however was that after the wonderful separation/placement/wide, 3D soundstage of my HP system (especially with the Empyreans), I didn't really enjoy the speaker experience as much as before without moving closer to them to gain more of said hp (side-to-side) delivery!! So I'm now more content than ever to stick with the cans lol...”

Well, Dynaudio are most excellent speakers for shure (but floorstanders are very expensive !) and with Euforia so configured, plus your very nice Vincent ss amp, ( Euforia loves ss amps) bass would be very powerful...too deep for a stand mounter I guess, judging by my floorstanders that are taxed almost to the max. And of course, no speakers can quite equal the performance of good cans (I remember this every time I switch from one to the other), and with your Empyreans...better forget it, you would need, say, some 30k electrostatics (plus biamping) to be in the same sonic league.

On the other hand, (with very good speakers) the unavoidable loss of resolution/separation/detail is compensated (in my view) by their expansive “open air”, 3D, room filling presentation that may be less accurate than that of good cans, but certainly no “open air” HPs can pretend to be better than real air: It allows the whole music (and bass) to develop and decay naturally in space, just like the real thing...and you can share your music with people, not a minor issue.

Oh yes, the “better half” syndrome !!...I had to swear mine that the new floorstanders would be “quite small” (haha). There are so many excellent speakers in the UK...a little tip: Monitor Audio is heavily discounting their “silver series”, VERY NICE looking floorstanders being replaced by a new model. High probability of WF approval (LOL) and great sounding loudspeakers...just be sure to get one with dual 6 1/2” bass drivers...cheers !

 

[connieflyer]

Well, I have not had the pre-amp connected for a few months now, and seeing all this talk I decided I should give it try again. This is the first outing with the Special EL 38 El 39 and two Valvo mesh plate EL 11's. I am running it through an Anthem MRX 720, SVS Ultra towers, SVS Ultra Center PSB surrounds and an SVS PC-12 Plus subwoofer. With this tube combo the pre-amp out is extraordinary, have not heard it like this before, especially the bass. The Ultra towers have dual 8" bass speakers in them, and they were very active indeed. Diana Krall was to die for, was ready to ask her out to dinner, so realistic and the presence was right her in the room. Treble was crystal clear, and there in equal amounts, so the whole sound stage was very believable. Putting on the test tracks that I use, the bass actually rattled the pictures on the wall, the signal around 35 Hz was sustained with no distortion, so much so you could feel in in your gut, as well as the floor and furniture. Neighbors loved it. Tim had to come over to see what I was up to, so had to play a few more tracks at higher than normal, and I could see by his smile, he enjoyed it as well. Wants me to invite his friend over, to demonstrate the system, his friend has a nice system as well, and Tim thought it would put him in his place, might have to do that. At lower volume, it was still an engaging display of instrument placement, and levels. The last combo's I used with the Euforia, were a quad of EL 38's and it was nice but nowhere's near as good as this. The bass was much better controlled, and mid's were tighter as well. Glad you folks talked about this subject again, had not thought about the pre amp since last time was not that good. This will be a very nice time filler come winter, when the house is all closed up, and the neighbors are not out and about.

 

[UntilThen]

Diana Krall was to die for, was ready to ask her out to dinner

Haha miss your sense of humour Don. Miss the bond we had together with @hypnos1 (Colin) and Pct - who is in heaven with a better sound system . Glad you guys are well and still enjoying this great hobby of ours. Take care.

 

[connieflyer]

Nice to hear from you UT, has been awhile. Kind of miss the old days, and of course PCT, the 4 Musketeers was a neat group, within a group. Hope all is well with you.

 

[hypnos1]

“What did fascinate me however was that after the wonderful separation/placement/wide, 3D soundstage of my HP system (especially with the Empyreans), I didn't really enjoy the speaker experience as much as before without moving closer to them to gain more of said hp (side-to-side) delivery!! So I'm now more content than ever to stick with the cans lol...”

Well, Dynaudio are most excellent speakers for shure (but floorstanders are very expensive !) and with Euforia so configured, plus your very nice Vincent ss amp, ( Euforia loves ss amps) bass would be very powerful...too deep for a stand mounter I guess, judging by my floorstanders that are taxed almost to the max. And of course, no speakers can quite equal the performance of good cans (I remember this every time I switch from one to the other), and with your Empyreans...better forget it, you would need, say, some 30k electrostatics (plus biamping) to be in the same sonic league.

On the other hand, (with very good speakers) the unavoidable loss of resolution/separation/detail is compensated (in my view) by their expansive “open air”, 3D, room filling presentation that may be less accurate than that of good cans, but certainly no “open air” HPs can pretend to be better than real air: It allows the whole music (and bass) to develop and decay naturally in space, just like the real thing...and you can share your music with people, not a minor issue.

Oh yes, the “better half” syndrome !!...I had to swear mine that the new floorstanders would be “quite small” (haha). There are so many excellent speakers in the UK...a little tip: Monitor Audio is heavily discounting their “silver series”, VERY NICE looking floorstanders being replaced by a new model. High probability of WF approval (LOL) and great sounding loudspeakers...just be sure to get one with dual 6 1/2” bass drivers...cheers !

Well, I have not had the pre-amp connected for a few months now, and seeing all this talk I decided I should give it try again. This is the first outing with the Special EL 38 El 39 and two Valvo mesh plate EL 11's. I am running it through an Anthem MRX 720, SVS Ultra towers, SVS Ultra Center PSB surrounds and an SVS PC-12 Plus subwoofer. With this tube combo the pre-amp out is extraordinary, have not heard it like this before, especially the bass. The Ultra towers have dual 8" bass speakers in them, and they were very active indeed. Diana Krall was to die for, was ready to ask her out to dinner, so realistic and the presence was right her in the room. Treble was crystal clear, and there in equal amounts, so the whole sound stage was very believable. Putting on the test tracks that I use, the bass actually rattled the pictures on the wall, the signal around 35 Hz was sustained with no distortion, so much so you could feel in in your gut, as well as the floor and furniture. Neighbors loved it. Tim had to come over to see what I was up to, so had to play a few more tracks at higher than normal, and I could see by his smile, he enjoyed it as well. Wants me to invite his friend over, to demonstrate the system, his friend has a nice system as well, and Tim thought it would put him in his place, might have to do that. At lower volume, it was still an engaging display of instrument placement, and levels. The last combo's I used with the Euforia, were a quad of EL 38's and it was nice but nowhere's near as good as this. The bass was much better controlled, and mid's were tighter as well. Glad you folks talked about this subject again, had not thought about the pre amp since last time was not that good. This will be a very nice time filler come winter, when the house is all closed up, and the neighbors are not out and about.

Hi guys.

Well, these latest EL tubes certainly do seem to be working wonders for Euforia as pre-amp and not just cans lol! Trouble is, for me, it's not just re. the size of the speakers @Johnnysound I have to convince 'She who must be obeyed', but also it being a small household alas ...(badly in need of a 'Man Cave'!! ). I know 2x separate bass drivers are to be preferred, but I must admit I really like the look of the new Silver 200 (in 'Rosenut'), which get good reviews and I might just be able to get away with! As for 2x 8" bass drivers cf, not a chance in Hell lol!!...can't begin to imagine how the 'special' EL38/EL39 combo makes those beasts sing (shout?!!). No doubt your entire street will come visiting very soon! ...(don't forget the entrance charge lol...).

ps. Have already sent a love letter to Loreena McKennitt after listening to her 'Nights from the Alhambra' the other day...but haven't heard anything back yet alas! ....no doubt I might have had more luck back in the days as an Officer (and Gentleman?) aboard the 'Love Boat' - ie. Pacific Princess...(those were the days!!). Ah well, one reaches an age when all is dreams, no?!

pps. Miss the good ol' days as well @UntilThen ...good luck with your own journey......CJ

 

[connieflyer]

Well, CJ, when you combine the dual 8 inch drivers on the two towers and the 12 inch on the sub, there is no shortage of bass to be sure. What really amazes me, is with this combo of tubes the bass is so clear. No distortion, even with high volume. I was at half volume on the Euforia, and about -12db on the Anthem, all the speakers had just been equalized with the Arc to the room, and with the new Arc profile, the sound from the Anthem was the best I have heard here. Momentarily I had the Anthem turned up to -9 db, but was afraid the cathedral ceiling might open up to the outside! One of these days, I am going to open up the volume all the way just to see what will happen. If nothing breaks, I am sure the police will be summoned after reports of explosions! These tubes are keepers for sure.