[mordy]

ok, then let's hope that in my case it doesn't result also in an "improveworsening" ...but I will have at least some fun while at it. I still need to wait for a connector cable.

Yes - it is fun to experiment but having more than one preamp in the chain seemed to detract from the sound. But every rule has an exception…
Likewise, for those amps having the capability of more than two drivers, adding a third driver did not improve the sound.
Sometimes it takes a while to figure out these things - you have to wait for the first impressions to wear off. (Expectation bias)

 

[incredulousity]

The trick to using Euforia as preamp to a SS amp is that the volume on Eufioria should be set pretty high, ideally as high as you can make it without unacceptable noise floor.

The caveat of using it as a preamp is that, unlike on the Envy, the power tubes do not contribute to the preamp output - only the driver tubes. This is the case in my experience as well, and somewhere here someone has stated this more definitively, but I can't find the reference.

Even with this limitation, I often enjoyed using Euforia AE as a tube preamp to SS amps.

 

[mordy]

The trick to using Euforia as preamp to a SS amp is that the volume on Eufioria should be set pretty high, ideally as high as you can make it without unacceptable noise floor.

The caveat of using it as a preamp is that, unlike on the Envy, the power tubes do not contribute to the preamp output - only the driver tubes. This is the case in my experience as well, and somewhere here someone has stated this more definitively, but I can't find the reference.

Even with this limitation, I often enjoyed using Euforia AE as a tube preamp to SS amps.

As far as I know the preamp output and the headphone out are the same on the Euforia - you can use either when using as a preamp. But that would mean that all four tubes are being used.

 

[incredulousity]

That is incorrect, I have been told, and in my experience changing the power tubes does not at all effect the sound character of the preamp output to the SS amp.

I wish it were not the case. On Envy, I can hear the difference in any tube change, power or driver. Euforia driver tube changes do make a difference in output sound, which while less impressively than the combined effect on Envy, is still very enjoyable.

I fully endorse using good tube preamps into good SS amps. It is also the best way to drive planars off Euforia.

 

[Yoram Diamand]

Thanks for the recommendation, but I won't be getting Envy. I have Empyrean and Utopia headphones. Both scale well with Euforia. I heard the Abyss ab 1266 phi tc with the ss amp and was impressed. I was thinking about trading Empyreans for Abyss. I use TT2+M Scaler as DAC.

Hi I have the Empyrean with Euforia and I'd think, perhaps an old Utopia would be a great addition to my gear since both headphones are classic with Euforia. Sad though that no tube factory wants to build a new 5998 tube. Woo does not sell 5998 nor 7236. My Euforia seems to be out of fashion in that way. I doubt that you'll get much more than one ear 1266 when you trade the Empyrean for the 1266. And you could be thinking of an other very costly amp to drive the 1266 because everyone says the Euforia will not do that job. Would the TT2 be strong enough? Good luck on your quest.

 

[LegatoB]

Does anyone do preamp tube to a tube amp? I’m honestly a really big fan. I guess the noise floor is up a little but it is still so resolving and so lush yet resolving. Also, what about preamps into like a Yulong A18? I’m curious because I have one and would like to try but I don’t know if the difference in power will cause any issues. Thanks!

 

[OctavianH]

Sad though that no tube factory wants to build a new 5998 tube. Woo does not sell 5998 nor 7236.

You have a pair of 5998 for sale here.

 

[Nicolas Yance]

Does anyone do preamp tube to a tube amp? I’m honestly a really big fan. I guess the noise floor is up a little but it is still so resolving and so lush yet resolving. Also, what about preamps into like a Yulong A18? I’m curious because I have one and would like to try but I don’t know if the difference in power will cause any issues. Thanks!

I use my pro iCan as pre to feed my WA5. Tube mode for hd800s and tube+ mode for my he1000v2. Extra fun with the bass boost dial.

 

[Yoram Diamand]

You have a pair of 5998 for sale here.

Sold, Thanks for the tip

 

[dpeterfy32]

why do high-impedance dynamic drivers (zmf, sennheiser) perform best with an otl amplifier? what is it that a high-end SS dac/amp (eg: Violectric dha v590 mk2) can't give them? it also has plenty of output voltage, maximum 21V.. so why is an otl better for a sennheiser hd660S2? (Eg: euforia )

 

[ThanatosVI]

why do high-impedance dynamic drivers (zmf, sennheiser) perform best with an otl amplifier? what is it that a high-end SS dac/amp (eg: Violectric dha v590 mk2) can't give them? it also has plenty of output voltage, maximum 21V.. so why is an otl better for a sennheiser hd660S2? (Eg: euforia )

An OTL is not necessarily better than a transformer coupled amplifier.

However an OTL usually works better with high impedance headphones, since it can provide high voltage swings way easier than it can provide high current.

Whereas a transformer coupled amp usually doesn't care much about the headphone impedance.

 

[BrainSalat]

I think the question was referring to OTL tube vs SS amps, and one reason is the amplifier damping factor (DF), or the ability of the amp to control the headphone driver, or how quick the amp can stop the driver from signal to no-signal. The damping factor can be calculated as the headphone impedance divided the amp output impedance.

A high value may result in edgy treble and tight/punchy bass and a low value may result in smoother edges and more "boomy" bass. There is a DF range which make the listening experience "more pleasant" (too much or too few may result unpleasant), but this range depend on the driver technology and your listening preferences.

So for high impedance headphones, like the ones you mention, the DF is too high when using SS amps given its relative low output impedance. For example ZMF Verite headphones have beryllium drivers which deliver very quick transients (too quick??). The last specially take advantage of OTL amps (higher output impedance --> lower DF) slowing down the quick transient of the VC, making the notes to have more presence, fading away slower which result in a more relaxed listening experience.

On the other hand, planar magnetic headphones (lower impedance) seems to be preferred with SS amps (better DF), given that now the DF maybe "too low" when paired with tube amps.

You see also recently the trend of amp manufactures to provide different setting for the output impedance, so they can have better match with different driver technologies.

 

[dpeterfy32]

I think the question was referring to OTL tube vs SS amps, and one reason is the amplifier damping factor (DF), or the ability of the amp to control the headphone driver, or how quick the amp can stop the driver from signal to no-signal. The damping factor can be calculated as the headphone impedance divided the amp output impedance.

A high value may result in edgy treble and tight/punchy bass and a low value may result in smoother edges and more "boomy" bass. There is a DF range which make the listening experience "more pleasant" (too much or too few may result unpleasant), but this range depend on the driver technology and your listening preferences.

So for high impedance headphones, like the ones you mention, the DF is too high when using SS amps given its relative low output impedance. For example ZMF Verite headphones have beryllium drivers which deliver very quick transients (too quick??). The last specially take advantage of OTL amps (higher output impedance --> lower DF) slowing down the quick transient of the VC, making the notes to have more presence, fading away slower which result in a more relaxed listening experience.

On the other hand, planar magnetic headphones (lower impedance) seems to be preferred with SS amps (better DF), given that now the DF maybe "too low" when paired with tube amps.

You see also recently the trend of amp manufactures to provide different setting for the output impedance, so they can have better match with different driver technologies.

this was very helpful and understandable explanation. you write, right, that the smaller df gives a calmer sound, slower diaphragm movement. otl is used a lot for zmf and Sennheiser headphones... for example, the hd650 is slow warm swampy by default, so they make it even calmer with an otl amplifier, isn't that an exaggeration? As far as I know, Verite and Atrium both have a warm, lush sound, and since the bottoms are dynamic and slower than planar drivers, and this is further slowed down by the OTL because the df is small, isn't that too much? and these are often referred to as the best combo. i mean the otl + high impedance dynamic driver. but, wait.. if we think about this logically.. it should be the other way around.. since the planar drivers should be slowed down with a small df, since they are faster than the dynamic ones right? it is ok that the output power of the OTL is not enough for many planars, and this cannot be done. but I'm sure you know what I mean. if we start from the above, SS with a large df is suitable for dynamic headphones to speed up the movement and stopping of the driver.

 

[dpeterfy32]

in fact, I've been thinking about this quite a lot and I've actually come to the conclusion that the Damping factor at this level cannot simply affect the speed - slowness of the headphones or whether there is more or less bass, or more treble - less treble, because if this were the case then any low Impedance headphones would be slow and with overdriven bass. and any high-impedance headphones would be very fast. So if we start from the assumption that these headphones are connected to a maximum 1 ohm output impedance SS headphone amp, we know that this is impossible, each headphone is tuned differently, and drivers with different technologies also have their own characteristics, not to mention that they are still otl-otl headphones there can be quite big differences between amplifiers. It depends on what kind of tubes are in it, and what quality of parts, and how much knowledge is involved in the construction. I know of only one rule that is almost certain to be the case, and that is none other than that the Impedance of the headphones must be divided by eight, and the output impedance of the connected amplifier must not touch the frequency path, so the headphones should sound as tuned at the factory.

 

[LoryWiv]

On the other hand, planar magnetic headphones (lower impedance) seems to be preferred with SS amps (better DF), given that now the DF maybe "too low" when paired with tube amps.

You see also recently the trend of amp manufactures to provide different setting for the output impedance, so they can have better match with different driver technologies.

Euforia is said to be an exception to the above truism, and Lukasz from Feliks-Audio has indicated that even low impedance planars can be well driven by Euforia as long as headphone sensitivity is high. My Audeze MM-500 are low impedance, high sensitivity planars and sound wonderful with Euforia. YMMV.