[hypnos1]

Now then guys...not one to let you - or I! - rest on our laurels for too long, out of interest I thought I'd just see how my lone Mazda EL38 (dual getters) sounds partnering an EL39 in the power seat. Especially after I was so impressed with it on first acquaintance a while back, when comparing to other early superb silver-banded Philips (France)/Dario/RT versions.

Well, all I can say is that not all EL38s are equal! In fact, in many ways this Mazda 38/39 power combo even surpasses 2x EL39s!...how can this possibly be lol?!!

On first listen, the extra bass extension reminded me of the early Mullard 'balloon' (large bottle) 38 version, and seemed a bit OTT in my system, especially for the Empyreans.
It also made the vocals - especially female - a little less forward/intimate, and so was ready to dismiss in favour of the other EL39.

However, after leaving to cook for a few more hours and another (important) overnight cooling off period, today things are quite different...that deeper bass hardened and gained the EL39's wonderful control. Just as importantly as far as I'm concerned, voice positioning returned more to my particular taste. In addition, treble from this Mazda has even more of the C3g 'sparkle', but with none of the latter's occasional 'over-exuberance'. Therefore, the already dynamic nature of the 38s and 39s goes up yet another notch, and fair took me by surprise. Mind you, I'm quite sure that two Mazda EL38s would indeed be far too much for my own gear and tastes! And I firmly believe that its combination with an EL39 is a prime case of 'the whole being greater than the sum of the parts', as I found a long time ago when pairing an ECC31 driver with an FDD20. But as the EL tubes are much more closely related, the combination is even more perfect (and with the most deathly silent background I've ever heard from power tubes).

And so all in all folks, I must admit to once again being somewhat confounded/confused by this EL38/39 saga...and as so often happens with our glass-tubed wonders, we cannot take too much for granted lol! I can only suggest you keep a very sharp eye out for such an EL38 - preferably labelled MAZDA, although it would appear that any label on an identical-looking tube (with black internal coating, and no silver band at the base) probably came from the same factory in France (not to be confused with the larger bottle Mullard)...a photo of my Mazda in the righthand power slot should give a good idea :



ps. My experience with this tube confirms once more the need to take one's time in judging a tube's qualities. As this is a used tube, I could so easily have assumed that the initial overall presentation was going to be 'it', and not continued with it. Obviously, it needed that time to adjust to a different amp's topology - and vice versa! - before performing to anywhere near its best. And so, as I - and others more experienced than myself - have said many times before, patience is all-important when trying to judge/assess a particular tube...or any other piece of hi-fi equipment....CHEERS!...CJ

 

[connieflyer]

Congrats CJ, looks like you have uncovered another gem! I think your next task is to uncover a tube that works just like these harmonize, but that are cheap and readily available! That Mazda, looks a lot like the Mullard fat bottle El 38's, wonder what the difference is. If the circuit is a little different or is strickly constuction. Well, what ever the difference, hope someone else can uncover one and give their voice up to these tubes. You should invite Micheal Lukasz by to listen to your system next time he is in country, to see what you have discovered. I think he may be amazed at what you have accomplished in your journey. Thanks for all the guidance you have given to the thread. We all appreciate what you have done.

 

[hypnos1]

Congrats CJ, looks like you have uncovered another gem! I think your next task is to uncover a tube that works just like these harmonize, but that are cheap and readily available! That Mazda, looks a lot like the Mullard fat bottle El 38's, wonder what the difference is. If the circuit is a little different or is strickly constuction. Well, what ever the difference, hope someone else can uncover one and give their voice up to these tubes. You should invite Micheal Lukasz by to listen to your system next time he is in country, to see what you have discovered. I think he may be amazed at what you have accomplished in your journey. Thanks for all the guidance you have given to the thread. We all appreciate what you have done.

Hi cf...and thanks once again for your kind words.

Well, mon ami, what can I say?...except that it really does look like there probably never is such a thing as 'end game' for us enthusiasts (I blame Mother Nature for making such curiosity essential for the advancement of a species lol! ...and much more complimentary than pure madness!! ).

Anyway, further to my recent early impressions of the Mazda (France) EL38/EL39 combo, I'm glad to say it wasn't mere seduction...there really is a torrid love affair going on between these 2 tubes as powers. It's almost as though they keep goading each other to new heights...just as I think the Mazda in the right channel is getting the upper hand, the 39 in the left comes out with something to match it. Have never encountered such a thing in this hobby of ours! ... (as you hinted, they constantly maintain perfect harmony).

I'm usually very suspicious of a tube that at first listen seems to bring something extra to the table than the previous 'star', and the Mazda's unrivalled bass, coupled with a scintillating treble began to instill doubts about recordings biased a tad too much towards these extremes. Happily, my main go-to albums and tracks for testing this - including Genesis's 'Duke', Alison Moyet's 'All Cried Out' and Lindsey Stirling's 'Stars Align' all put my mind at rest...no teeth on edge with treble, and bass lines always tight, solid and well controlled. Happily also, all aspects regarding soundstage remain a match for the wonderful 2x EL39 setup....am still somewhat bemused by it all!

Driven by the mesh plate Valvo EL11/EL3NG combo, from both my own experience and general consensus on tube characteristics, I think I can safely say the Mazda 38/EL39 combo has few equals, this side of bankruptcy lol.... And so I'll be looking into hopefully helping a few others to either agree or disagree...but as for finding tubes that can match these on the cheap...forget it!! I'm afraid I don't intend spending the entire rest of my life in the forlorn hope of trying to find such gems lol!...(anyone else care to adopt the mantle?...GOOD LUCK!!)....CHEERS!...CJ

ps. In most respects, the Mazda EL38 looks absolutely identical to the EL39, apart from a neater bulge up top; smaller base and no silver skirt for the Mazda...both having black plates; dual getters; ceramic post insulators and gold signal grid wire (the larger 'fat' bottle Mullard EL38 is minus the insulators and gold wire). Why there should be such differences in sound, goodness knows! But I have to admit that the French 38s and 39s are a good bit ahead of the British tubes...especially the still excellent later clear glass Mullard-made EL38 (in our amps, at least...).

 

[connieflyer]

That's really interesting to hear CJ, I suppose the possibility of finding another one is going to be really difficult. But I'll keep on the lookout hopefully find one someday, but even if I don't the ones that I am using make me a happy camper! Never stop looking you never know what you're going to find. Just imagine if we would have just accepted this amplifier just the way it came from the factory.

 

[DecentLevi]

Congratulations on the rare EL38/39 powers combo you were able to find. Even with such TOTL tubes, the performance is in no small part thanks to your up/downstream gear such as DAC, wiring, headphone, and of course the amp itself. Moreover the performance of a tube depends heavily on the headphone pairing. Not only should the sound signatures compliment each other, but also the tube should supply a proper current for the said headphone. That is to say, the EL39 + EL11 pairings as of late are a fantastic choice for many headphones also including Empyreans, T1, HD-6xx series, etc. that drive them well and give a fantastic sound; both the tubes and headphones being generally linear. OTOH other headphones such as the closed HD-380 demand a brighter even even more dynamic tube compliment to counter their somewhat dark/slow signature. So there is no one solution for all, but it rather depends on your up/downstream gear and preferences. And we're fortunate to have such a versatile amp that can accommodate such diverse needs.

 

[Johnnysound]

..

 

[hypnos1]

Well, @connieflyer...all I can say is keep looking indeed for the Mazda EL38 as shown below - this baby is, for some reason - quite a different beast to all the other 38s I've tried...not to mention the star EL39 lol!

And in reply especially to @DecentLevi 's points just now, perhaps I should summarise more clearly for folks my recent findings re. the EL38 family, and compared to the EL39.

I realise I'm very fortunate to have other system elements that help my Euforia and tubes perform above average, but what I have been describing mostly are differences between the various tubes, more so than their level of performance. It follows therefore that such differences should apply to other systems also, even if perhaps not to quite the same degree. As for just how they perform with different headphones, again I think it safe to assume most others would experience very similar results, based upon past concensus from different users' systems when using the clear glass Mullard-made EL38. And for serious listening, I'm quite sure most folks who have spent Euforia-type money will want headphones way above the likes of the HD380 for example...makes no sense otherwise IMHO!

And so...in Euforia, and compared to the British made Mullard clear glass EL38/CV450, I personally have found :

1. The Philips (France) Dario/RT silver banded EL38s have an overall better balance, separation/placement/soundstage... with slightly less apparent bass, but one that has better definition, control and solidity. The general feeling is one of more coherence and command of the sound.

2. As of the moment, the MAZDA EL38 possesses all of the above, but with appreciable enhancement in all aspects of bass...impressively so, in fact. Treble is also enhanced. Its overall delivery is also much more dynamic, which would help systems/headphones that need this especially.

3. The EL39 simply takes all the French qualities to levels that scream 'class'...with an added refinement, clarity and overall mastery that almost defy description. You just know this tube is something very special indeed.

4. So, given such mastery, how on Earth can the EL39 - as a pair - be surpassed lol? For me, its combination with the Mazda 38 brings the level of bass that in the past I would have frowned upon...but I now realise this was because no other previous tube(s) delivered it so masterfully lol! The Mazda's extra treble 'sparkle' is also a nice counterfoil to such a bass...and all with no detrimental effect upon the seductive mids. These two tubes together manage to deliver both dynamism and refinement when called for...more so than I have ever encountered before (and certainly from 'conventional' tubes).

ps. The clear glass Mullard EL38 in combination with the EL39 brought nowhere near the same magic I'm afraid....in bass quality especially...
pps. This is all rather unfair to the Mullards alas...these are nonetheless wonderful tubes! ...but in this situation, they're simply outclassed by the French!!

Finally, a couple of photos of the marvels in question :


4x Philips/Dario/RT EL38s


Left : Mazda EL38 (dual getters)...Right : Philips/Dario EL38 (also dual getters, looks identical to the EL39 but with smaller base...sound akin to the EL39).

 

[connieflyer]

Very nice summation CJ. And I do agree with what you said about the headphones for five years ago I had the HD380s, and they were okay for a closed-back phone. Nowhere close to high-end. I then moved on to the HD 650 which was a much better phone. I also tried the Sennheiser 700 which was better still but just a little bit on the Wild Side. Did not have the consistency that I was looking for when I settled on the Sennheiser 800, things finally started going right. The money that I spent on the amplifier, dac, power conditioning, tube rolling finally came full circle. It gave me what I was looking for with all the neutrality as well as the definition that I wanted I also had a beyer T1. Which was also a good phone. When I got the chance to use my equipment with the el 39 has powers the whole structure of the Sennheiser 800 changed. The base was much more dominant than it has ever been before , it was there in spades. Many reviewers always said the 800 was light in the base Department. Well I can tell you from listening on two separate Sennheiser 800 phones that I own base is very strong very clear and definitely not lacking anywhere. But that's the thing with audio equipment especially you have to have the chain equal the sum you have a strong amplifier and weak headphones you're not going to get the full value of that amplifier. It's like building a race car you don't just build the top end with a nice camshaft and a big carburetor okay fuel injection now and leave the bottom end of the engine stock it has to be top to bottom to get the most out of it. It's that simple

 

[DecentLevi]

Hi guys I didn't mean to cause a misunderstanding. Rather than saying the EL38/39 powers are good for some people but I prefer others for my headphones, I'm saying it's good to have both. In my extensive testing, the HD-380 prefer something akin to Bendix 6080 (slotted graphite plates) powers with 6N23P as drivers for a sound that delivers the right amount of slam, lushness, detail and current for these specific headphones. It gives a super special presentation for electronic music, something that must be directly heard to experience. For my HD-600 along with good resolving neutral open-backs I definitely prefer the EL39 + EL11 tubes as well. If you have multiple headphones it's great to have a variety of tubes to find the best pairing.

 

[hypnos1]

Hi guys I didn't mean to cause a misunderstanding. Rather than saying the EL38/39 powers are good for some people but I prefer others for my headphones, I'm saying it's good to have both. In my extensive testing, the HD-380 prefer something akin to Bendix 6080 (slotted graphite plates) powers with 6N23P as drivers for a sound that delivers the right amount of slam, lushness, detail and current for these specific headphones. It gives a super special presentation for electronic music, something that must be directly heard to experience. For my HD-600 along with good resolving neutral open-backs I definitely prefer the EL39 + EL11 tubes as well. If you have multiple headphones it's great to have a variety of tubes to find the best pairing.

Sorry DL, but I'm having a very hard time trying to understand why anyone who pays a not insignificant amount for such an amp as Euforia would even think of wanting to do serious listening with such as the HD 380...does not compute lol!! These are my last words on this...

 

[DecentLevi]

What you have found is the best pairing for neutral reference headphones, but odd closed headphones with a dark signature require different signature / current to synergize better; The 6080 + 9-pin octals gel well with certain headphones that the EL don't play well with, whereas the EL tubes are more suited for neutral flagships such as that most of us have been using. A good closed headphone is preferrable to me with lossy electronic music for more of a 'fun', less critical experience.
There is no one size fits all, and certain tubes work better for certain headphones. Debating this point would be rather futile. Great this is your last words on this, let's agree to disagree until you can hear what I'm talking about directly. I'm with you on your top EL combos - no disagreement there, and occasionally roll different tubes for other cans just like anybody who does tube rolling.

 

[connieflyer]

DL, what you say about different tubes and phones for different situations has some validity, if all you're looking for is something that is fun to listen to instead of rolling tubes to try to find that exact fun sound that you're looking for, I would suggest that you use a graphic equalizer to change the sound to what is sounding to be more fun to you. You do not need to roll different tubes to change the sound of the amplifier. What I take offense to is your language at the end were you trying to make it seem like you have all the answers and you're just waiting for CJ to come around to your way of thinking. To me those words are not welcome. We can all disagree about something but it doesn't have to get to the point to where one person thanks he knows everything , much more than those that have been around in this Hobby for many more years, and has much more technical information available to him through direct experimentation, not to mention actually designing the amplifier itself. The Elise, and also asking and receiving the changes made so well that they actually made a second version called Euphoria from the original. I myself have been in electronics since the early 60s, that was before solid state took hold, for those that don't know. That was tube based Electronics before the Silicon chip was discovered and brought to Market. What height the tube design had culminated about this time perhaps a little before. What I have also found is CJ's explanations on the value of certain tubes coincides with what I have learned over the last 60 years. So I don't think he has to come around to your way of thinking. So for now let's just agree to disagree. I'm done with this nonsense

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Many thanks too @ZRW0, Erwin the Tube arrived today, damn! Just put in the EL12Spez and EL32’s, my God the soundstage on the Vérité is absolutely huge! More to come, thank you so much, it’s fantastic to go from 0 to 60 overnight with the Euforia!

 

[DecentLevi]

@Wildcatsare1 congrats, and it looks like your Euforia must be already burned in. Personally I'd say if you already have the EL12 Spez no reason to bother with the EL38 & adapters, better to keep checking in case a few EL39 turn up, then see about any adapters. I've found the difference between EL38/39 to be so great they're almost incomparable - yet the Spez still definitely rises towards the top as well. I see you must be pairing it with the Hugo 2 which helps a fair amount too, right? And it looks like you have a power conditioning solution of some sort which also helps improve the sound.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

@DecentLevi, yes, I’m using the Hugo 2, and power conditioning, as well as ferrite rings on the grounding wires on the adapters. Would you recommend going with a good pair of 6SN7’s (real Bad Boys, Psvane or Ken-Rad)?