[JazzVinyl]

Having just read five pages of endless nonsensical explanations as to how running two totally different drivers in the Elise is a good thing - lost count of the leaps of logic - I can honestly say it's the highlight of the day. Really needed it, after coming back from an all-night florist with a bouquet for a funeral.

Anyone notice, the talk about 6N7G - The Joybringers - is suddenly over? Good times.

Sorry for your loss, Felix.

Actually, Mordy is quite smitten with his early 6N7G's...

.

 

[Renderman]

I've been swapping back and forth between the ECC31 and CNU 6SN7GT.. (GEC Powers) they actually sound very close in performance on the T1s, Philips Fidelio X2 and my speakers. The ECC31 go deeper and have a larger base fundament but other than that they sound quite alike! Anyone able and willing to confirm this? (gibosi?)

 

[gibosi]

I'm currently away in C3g land. lol. The older Siemens do seem to sound every so slightly different than the newer ones, but it is very subtle, so I am still trying to get a handle on what I am hearing. However, when I return, I will look into this.

 

[hypnos1]

   
I don't think there is any doubt about it. An FDD20 and an ECC31 are "totally different drivers". A FDD20 is a 12 volt version of a 6N7. It is not a 12 volt version of an ECC31. And while the 6N7 and ECC31 are similar, they are certainly not the same.

 
With respect g, how can you say so categorically that the FDD20 is a 12V version of a 6N7 rather than more closely related to a tube within the same Philips stable, developed for precisely the same military purpose at precisely the same time? Have you found more compelling evidence to substantiate your statement?  Please enlighten...

 

[gibosi]

   
With respect g, how can you say so categorically that the FDD20 is a 12V version of a 6N7 rather than more closely related to a tube within the same Philips stable, developed for precisely the same military purpose at precisely the same time? Have you found more compelling evidence to substantiate your statement?  Please enlighten...

 
The 6N7 draws 0.8 amps of heater current at 6.3 volts. The FDD20 draws 0.4 amps of heater current at 12.6 volts, exactly as one would predict for a 12V version of a 6N7. The ECC31 draws 0.95 amps of heater current. If the FDD20 was a 12V version of an ECC31, the heaters would draw 0.475 amps, which it does not. So I am very comfortable in stating that the FDD20 is not a 12V version of the ECC31.
 
Also, I think you are overlooking the fact that the 6N7 was designed at the same time and for precisely the same purposes as the ECC31. It too was used as an audio amplifier in radios of the late 1930's, and while different, the construction and electrical characteristics are quite similar.
 
Again,  I don't think there is any doubt about it. An FDD20 and an ECC31 are "totally different drivers". And the use of two totally different drivers is really no different than listening with a customized set of headphones, let's say, one half of an HD650 on one ear and one half of an HD800 on the other. Yes, it may well sound glorious, but....
 
So while your use of dissimilar drivers may be providing you with the best sound in your experience, you need to accept the fact that many will be very skeptical and even derisive of claims to the superiority of this combination over the use of identical drivers.
 
Cheers

 

[Oskari]

  With respect g, how can you say so categorically that the FDD20 is a 12V version of a 6N7 rather than more closely related to a tube within the same Philips stable, developed for precisely the same military purpose at precisely the same time? Have you found more compelling evidence to substantiate your statement?  Please enlighten...

 
That is a fair question.
 

  The 6N7 draws 0.8 amps of heater current at 6.3 volts. The FDD20 draws 0.4 amps of heater current at 12.6 volts, exactly as one would predict for a 12V version of a 6N7. The ECC31 draws 0.95 amps of heater current. If the FDD20 was a 12V version of an ECC31, the heaters would draw 0.475 amps, which it does not. So I am very comfortable in stating that the FDD20 is not a 12V version of the ECC31.

 
No, you can't really draw such conclusions.
 

Again,  I don't think there is any doubt about it. An FDD20 and an ECC31 are "totally different drivers".

 
Well, no. They are most certainly related. The details we don't know about.
 

  So while your use of dissimilar drivers may be providing you with the best sound in your experience, you need to accept the fact that many will be very skeptical and even derisive of claims to the superiority of this combination over the use of identical drivers.

 
This I have no problems with.
 
My 'OCD' would not allow dissimilar tubes anyway.

 

[gibosi]

  No, you can't really draw such conclusions.
 
Well, no. They are most certainly related. The details we don't know about.

 
For sure, there is no way we can really know. But I derive some comfort from the fact that I am not the only one to draw such a conclusion:
 
http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_fdd20.html
 
And of course, it makes some sense that as both came out of the Philips fold, they may well share similar designs and materials. However, I have both these tubes and I have listened to both fairly extensively. And to my ears, they are totally different.

 

[Oskari]

  For sure, there is no way we can really know. But I derive some comfort from the fact that I am not the only one to draw such a conclusion:
 
http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_fdd20.html

 
You should not take that too seriously. It is a tertiary source after all.
 

And of course, it makes some sense that as both came out of the Philips fold, they may well share similar designs and materials. However, I have both these tubes and I have listened to both fairly extensively. And to my ears, they are totally different.

 
Your ears I'm not gonna argue with.

 

[Shaffer]

A 6CY7 fest tonight - Tung Sol and Raytheon/GE. They look almost exactly the same as the RCAs I already have and all three sound quite different. Granted, today's arrival is NOS and I only have a few hours on the Raytheons and a brief taste of the Tung Sols. We'll see how things sound in a few days.

The RCA 5V4G rectifier is NOS, as advertised. In addition to very good sound, it puts on quite the light show. The 6CY7s, as well. Win-win. I'd like to pick up a couple more pairs of the RCA signal tubes and another GZ34, and I'm done with the Woo!

Wish I had some grandiose plan for the Elise, but I don't. The circuit, itself, is fantastic. On a relative scale, tube don't make for a night and day difference. It pretty much sounds great no matter what. Just for yucks, the other day, I rolled a pair of stock DV 6AS7G - the worst tube of its type I've heard. 7N7 drivers. After a short while of getting used to the Chinese bottles' tonal balance, the amp still sounded more open, dynamic, and extended than either the DV or the Woo shod with the best tubes for each. Of course, I'd love to get a taste of the GEC 6AS7Gs, but the way the prices are heading....

 

[hypnos1]

   
The 6N7 draws 0.8 amps of heater current at 6.3 volts. The FDD20 draws 0.4 amps of heater current at 12.6 volts, exactly as one would predict for a 12V version of a 6N7. The ECC31 draws 0.95 amps of heater current. If the FDD20 was a 12V version of an ECC31, the heaters would draw 0.475 amps, which it does not. So I am very comfortable in stating that the FDD20 is not a 12V version of the ECC31.
 
Also, I think you are overlooking the fact that the 6N7 was designed at the same time and for precisely the same purposes as the ECC31. It too was used as an audio amplifier in radios of the late 1930's, and while different, the construction and electrical characteristics are quite similar.
 
Again,  I don't think there is any doubt about it. An FDD20 and an ECC31 are "totally different drivers". And the use of two totally different drivers is really no different than listening with a customized set of headphones, let's say, one half of an HD650 on one ear and one half of an HD800 on the other. Yes, it may well sound glorious, but....
 
So while your use of dissimilar drivers may be providing you with the best sound in your experience, you need to accept the fact that many will be very skeptical and even derisive of claims to the superiority of this combination over the use of identical drivers.
 
Cheers

 
Hi g...I think the best we can say is that there remain a good few 'unknowns' here, lol.

 
But I personally still feel the two are very closely related indeed - the internals appear to be much more similar than to any 6N7G I have seen on the net - which could well be a red herring! -  but I would like to think that does indeed possibly indicate a closer relationship...(need to probe the archivists at Philips HQ, methinks!). Especially as we, the General Public, are so often not privvy to the murky waters of Old World tubedom!!...

....  Just a poor photo of said similarities - that coating is very tricky for pics!  :
 

 
  I have in fact noticed greater differences between some of my four ECC31/NR73s than these two tubes...but again, perhaps a red herring, lol!
 
However, g, I know we at least can agree to disagree amicably...and healthy skepticism is vital in any worthy debate.
 
But what worries me here is any presence of - as you say - derision. This is not a positive contribution to such debate, and is precisely what derailed the original Elise thread...and, of course, is not remotely in the true spirit of our community - not to mention strictly against Forum rules. You yourself are a prime example to others of what makes a worthy member... and one well-respected.
 
Anyway, back to sound perception, lol!...I can assure you the FDD20 and ECC31 are in no way like having a 650 in one ear and an 800 in the other!! And it is becoming more and more clear that certain tubes are performing very differently in your Glenn amp compared to the Elise...they are indeed quite different animals, lol! Therefore, we can only gain true impressions of the tubes we are using - including 'oddballs'! - when more Elise owners are able to give their own impartial assessments...warts and all, hopefully!!

. We are all on quite a journey, methinks...

 
Cheers!

 

[mordy]

Hi all,
 
After reading the above posts, and comparing the observations to my own as much as they apply, I have come to the following conclusions:
 
 Everything sounds good in the Elise (especially with Coke bottle ST tubes - Everything goes better with Coke).
 
Not all tube combinations sound good in the Glenn and the other amps mentioned above.
 
There is a lot of synergy between tubes, both between driver tubes themselves, and between driver and power tubes. Personally, I am not able to predict how something will sound - it's just trial and error.
 
With the Elise it is possible to mix different tubes as long as they are similar and get excellent results.
 
With the Glen amp and others, it may be difficult to achieve pleasing results when mixing tubes, due to a different construction than the Elise.
 
 

 

[gibosi]

 
After reading the above posts, and comparing the observations to my own as much as they apply, I have come to the following conclusions:
 
 Everything sounds good in the Elise (especially with Coke bottle ST tubes - Everything goes better with Coke).
 
Not all tube combinations sound good in the Glenn and the other amps mentioned above.
 
There is a lot of synergy between tubes, both between driver tubes themselves, and between driver and power tubes. Personally, I am not able to predict how something will sound - it's just trial and error.
 
With the Elise it is possible to mix different tubes as long as they are similar and get excellent results.
 
With the Glen amp and others, it may be difficult to achieve pleasing results when mixing tubes, due to a different construction than the Elise.

 
Until someone compares the 6N7G/6A6 to the same 6SN7s that I used, it is impossible to say that the 6N7G sounds better in the Elise than it does in the Glenn.
 
Futher, the Glenn uses only a single driver, so using two dissimilar drivers is simply not possible. And therefore, my impressions are based on running an FDD20, both channels, and an ECC31, both channels. And IMHO, the sonic differences between these two tubes are not subtle. So until someone installs two FDD20 in their Elise and compares it to two ECC31 and reports their observations, coming to any meaningful conclusions regarding differences in how these tubes sound in an Elise versus a Glenn is again not possible.
 
And yes, the use of dissimilar drivers may well sound excellent. But again, but this time referencing your system, it is no different than using two sonically different amplifiers or two sonically different speakers. It may well sound good, but.....
 
Anyway, this is getting to be tiresome... And as some in the Elise community are suggesting that my observations and impressions are not to be trusted since I do not have an Elise, I will make myself scarce henceforth.... No sense in wasting my time or yours....
 
Cheers

 

[Shaffer]

Anyway, this is getting to be tiresome... And as some in the Elise community are suggesting that my observations and impressions are not to be trusted since I do not have an Elise, I will make myself scarce henceforth.... No sense in wasting my time or yours....

Cheers

We want your contributions in this thread. They can leave if it doesn't suit them.

Edit: Back in the days when most discussions took place on Usenet, as the WWW was just coming about, there was a loosely constructed Web Warriors page. It was aimed at us, Usenet participants, and illustrated every conceivable stereotype. You came across a phenomenon known as "the swarm." They come out of the woodwork and attacked you at once. It sometimes worked on Usenet, as the posts functionally disappeared as they were read, and were purged from most news servers within a week. On a web-based forum, however, not so much, like using two totally different tubes as drivers and then expounding on the sonic virtue of the exercise. It's just like soup. Beyond absurd and everyone, except a few vocal individuals, knows it. lol

When I post I'm not necessarily addressing an individual, even though I may be responding to one, but everyone else lurking and reading the thread. Your posts are even more relevant when looked at in a similar manner.

 

[gibosi]

  However, g, I know we at least can agree to disagree amicably...and healthy skepticism is vital in any worthy debate.

 
It has always been my practice to disagree politely and respectfully. However, your recent postings misrepresenting my remarks does not make it easy.
 

  Well mordy...it looks like you - just as did JV - have shown that the 6N7G in our Elises can in fact perform FAR better than in gibosi's Glenn amp. Which makes good sense to me, as the two amps are obviously vastly different machines! The Feliks-Audio guys have inadvertently created something that is way more versatile than we ever even imagined just a short while ago - Lukasz himself can hardly believe what we have been doing with his baby...or the ensuing unexpected results, lol!  

 
I posted that I compared my 6A6 to my best 6SN7 and found them wanting. For you to then say that these tubes perform FAR better in the Elise is a gross misrepresentation of my observations. And since you have never heard a Glenn, an unfounded statement like this is simply irresponsible. When someone compares their 6N7G to the same 6SN7 in their Elise, then we can have a meaningful conversation about differences, if in fact, there are any worth noting.
 

  Anyway, back to sound perception, lol!...I can assure you the FDD20 and ECC31 are in no way like having a 650 in one ear and an 800 in the other!! And it is becoming more and more clear that certain tubes are performing very differently in your Glenn amp compared to the Elise...they are indeed quite different animals, lol! Therefore, we can only gain true impressions of the tubes we are using - including 'oddballs'! - when more Elise owners are able to give their own impartial assessments...warts and all, hopefully!!

. We are all on quite a journey, methinks...

 
Again, here you are saying that certain tubes perform differently in the Glenn when you have absolutely no data to substantiate such a claim. Up until now, my impressions of the various tubes discussed in the Elise threads have been in substantial agreement with Elise owners.  Moreover, when we first began rolling ECC31 and the FDD20, you and I substantially agreed that we were hearing the same thing: The ECC31 has incredible bass, but the overall presentation is somewhat laid back. The bass on the FDD20 doesn't match up to the ECC31, but the overall presentation is a bit more forward. I would encourage you to go back and reread those postings.
 
Also, it doesn't matter one bit that both the ECC31 and FDD20 came out of the Philips fold and might even be using some of the same components. The fact remains that they have different electrical characteristics and they do indeed sound different. And in fact, if they didn't sound different, I would guess that you would have had no interest in running them as a pair. Each has different strengths and weaknesses, and putting them together, in your mind, gives you the best of both.
 
So there is no doubt about it. You are now running an amp which processes the right and left channels differently. And in effect, this is no different than listening with a customized set of headphones. I simply used the 650 and 800 as an example, but the point is, dissimilar drivers is similar to having two different headphones or two different speakers. And again, the end result is the ears are receiving two signals that have been processed differently, whether through two different transducers or two different tubes.
 
This is certainly not what most people would call high quality audio. And I am quite sure that if an audio company were to produce and advertise an amp that did exactly this, process the right and left channels differently, they would almost certainly be laughed out of business. But here in the Elise forums, this practice is defended with the utmost seriousness. No laughter is allowed.
 
What I find interesting, Colin, is that while we used to agree on the sound of these tubes, you did not begin to assert that these tubes are performing very differently in the Glenn until I pointed out that the FDD20 and ECC31 are "totally different drivers". A coincidence perhaps?
 
Anyway, until recently I have enjoyed spending time with the Elise crowd. It has been fun. But from my perspective, things have changed for the worse. It is no longer fun... And shame on you....

 

[Shaffer]

[...]

So there is no doubt about it. You are now running an amp which processes the right and left channels differently. And in effect, this is no different than listening with a customized set of headphones. I simply used the 650 and 800 as an example, but the point is, dissimilar drivers is similar to having two different headphones or two different speakers. And again, the end result is the ears are receiving two signals that have been processed differently, whether through two different transducers or two different tubes.

This is certainly not what most people would call high quality audio. And I am quite sure that if an audio company were to produce and advertise an amp that did exactly this, process the right and left channels differently, they would almost certainly be laughed out of business. But here in the Elise forums, this practice is defended with the utmost seriousness. No laughter is allowed.

Yes, folks are laughing. At us. When I came into the Elise community, I was very pleasantly surprised by the level of discussion and the appreciation of a sonically relevant goal. Finally, I was talking to adults and they were after the same thing as myself. All that went into the dumpster, what, about a month ago? The thread was eventually closed, I was banned for a week, and now we're two separate factions. If I may be so bold as to speak for the OP of this thread, please forgive me, we're not interested in a fanboy environment. Yes, it's a thread based on the Elise, but all are welcome who are interested in tubes. You are certainly such an individual.

[...]
It is no longer fun...

It can be. Trust me.