Exclusive First Listen: Experience Yamaha’s Unreleased Head-Fi Models! YH-4000 headphones and YH-C3000 headphones

[voja]

And if a headphone is so sensitive to chain that it sounds like a completely different headphone on another amp, then that itself is an attribute worthy of criticism.

Isn't this a one-sided view? By saying it's worthy of criticism, you are indirectly saying it's not worthy of praise. lol

Excerpt from my article:

YH-5000SE’s sound variability is its philosophy, it’s at the core of what makes it so special. To assume otherwise is to misunderstand the essence of expression. The same applies to its unique tuning. I see it as an instrument in the purest sense: you can play it, and sound will come out, but that doesn’t mean you played it. It comes with no manual or instructions on how to play it correctly. [...] The moment you accept its sound variability as an inherent quality is the starting point of understanding this headphone. From that point onward, it’s all about how badly you want to hear it.

I never said that you must share the same views as me. However, by dismissing my perspective and findings, you just show how closed-minded you are.

If the YH-5K cannot [sound 'great' on every setup], then that's a weakness, not a strength, no matter what sophistry you employ to justify it.

And there you have it, literal proof of your closed-mindedness. Just like Kammerat, you are dismissing and rejecting opposing views. Another absolutist claim. Not only that, but you had to resort to an insult and label my observations as employing sophistry. Whereas I can understand and accept both as valid opinions, you cannot accept that YH-5000SE's chain pickiness can be a major advantage.

I have 4 wonderful headphones in my regular rotation. All of them sound great on every chain. Sure, there's still synergy at play here, and they'll sound slightly different on different chains, but their fundamental character remains enjoyable everywhere.

Ironically, you prove my point. You have 4 headphones and are getting 4 sound profiles out of them, but you can have one Yamaha YH-5000SE and get 𝑥 number of sound profiles, basically allowing you to own multiple headphones. Are you denying that getting multiple sound profiles out of a single headphone is an advantage? Or are you trying to deny that this is possible as a whole (despite multiple people sharing that it is indeed possible)?

Also, Kammerat has stated in the other thread that he has a friend who loves the YH-5K; while he doesn't share that friend's view, he has acknowledged it, so don't go around saying that's he's trying to slander the product. He's offering criticism, just like anyone has the ability to do here.

You dug yourself a grave with this one. Let's get the record straight:
1. My first post in the YH-5000SE with my findings
2. Kammerat suggesting Yamaha made a mistake, and making absolutist claims about its sound by referencing a FR response from ASR.

He said that Yamaha failed at whatever they were aiming for [I'm assuming in terms of tuning], he further reinforced his absolutist claims that the YH-5000SE is peaky, and also assumed that Yamaha is not selling a lot of these.​

And here's where it all starts—keep in mind, his post was made after mine, so this is his response to what I had to say about achieving two great improvements when using my iBasso DAPs as sources, and to my claim of getting rid of peaks when using the DX340 DAP—he indirectly dismisses my findings by [indirectly] comparing me to his buddy. His buddy loves Grado and compared the YH-5000SE to Grado. He is indirectly saying that his buddy loves peaks.​

3. My short response
4. Kammerat confirming his dismissal of my findings

By saying "No chain can remove a large midrange peak unless it uses equalisation", he indirectly tried to invalidate my observations and suggest that I was using EQ to achieve the results. Here he undeniably confirms that he is comparing my findings to his buddy's. Kammerat hates the YH-5000SE for how peaky it sounds in his pairings, but is saying that's exactly what his buddy loves it for = I love it for sounding peaky. Textbook gaslighting.​

5. My response

I literally called things for what they are. Everything I said here is true—if you claim otherwise, I'm all ears.​

6. Kammerat's reply. Aka Gaslighting Supremus.

After this, another member joined him in gaslighting. I stayed silent and responded to all of this in my article.

So, @SolarCetacean, that's not called criticism. He didn't do what you're claiming he did. I am not going to assume whether you intentionally tried to manipulate the narrative—just like Kammerat—but you did fall for his deceptive posts. I will say that putting intentions and words in another man's mouth never goes well.

Those Head-Fi posts aren't going anywhere. You can try to twist words, but the posts are there to serve as proof of what was actually said. The truth is there.​

Personal attacks are the last resort of those who’ve run out of arguments. If you’re upset that I won’t stoop to emotionally-driven insults or baseless claims to fit your caricature of me, I’ll gladly wear that as a badge of honor. The same way you're trying to frame me as someone I am not, you are trying to frame the YH-5000SE as something it's not—in the sense that you are saying how it sounds in an absolutists way, instead of simply stating that this is how it sounds through your XYZ pairings... Is that such a big deal for some of you? To admit that your observations and findings are limited?

The only valid thing you said in your post is:

And yes, I've read through your long sound impressions and even though you've found a good combo, there's no guarantee that if I heard the YH-5K on your chain that I'd come to the same conclusion as you. That's just the nature of headphones; two people can sit in the same room and listen to the same headphones on the same chain and come away with different conclusions.

---

When you’re done cherry-picking and are ready to address any of the points I raised, let me know. I'm always here to have a healthy debate.

 

[AsciiJC]

Lets keep things on the Yamaha headphones!

I am genuinely looking forward to these new releases. While I did not personally enjoy the yh5000se, it was by far one of the most well built and comfortable headphones I have worn. I really look forward to seeing more impressions on these new sets, and I really hope to see Yamaha make more! They could genuinely sweep up a lot of the compeition if they keep at it haha.

 

[Beagle]

@voja Kammerat's opinions on the YH-5K are not unusual. And if a headphone is so sensitive to chain that it sounds like a completely different headphone on another amp, then that itself is an attribute worthy of criticism.

Yes. Mating an 'uneven' headphone with an 'uneven' amp can sometimes line up and synchronize almost perfectly. Like a broken clock that is right twice a day. But do two wrongs make a right? Perhaps.

 

[SolarCetacean]

@voja you're jousting with windmills here and you're acting like every contrary opinion is some personal attack on you. I'm not some absolutist who's adamant about disliking the Yamaha. In fact, I've given the YH-5K many more chances than I've given other headphones; even when I didn't like what I heard on one demo or another, I've continued to seek out listening sessions with these headphones. That you're calling me closed-minded (which is an attack on someone's character by the way, for someone who is so riled up with personal attacks) is frankly insulting, but on par with every interaction you've had with others who didn't immediately think that the Yamaha was great.

Back to actual substance, you misunderstand my argument, and I admit I did not make the nuances of my personal viewpoint clear in my earlier post. I'm not arguing that the Yamaha is bad, but that it has many attributes that can be regarded as weaknesses depending on your point of view. You think that the chain variability is an advantage. I recognize the chain variability, but I also recognize that people may think of it as a problem. You say that the Yamaha can act like multiple headphones, but if half of the pairings sound bad and don't work, then I'm sure you see why that would be a problem for some people. A headphone that is picky with the chain is not going to be for everyone and not everyone will appreciate that variability. You can shout until you're blue in the face that "no, this chain sensitivity is a great thing", but some people will never come around to that view.

Isn't this a one-sided view? By saying it's worthy of criticism, you are indirectly saying it's not worthy of praise. lol

This is binary thinking. Just because a quality is worthy of criticism does not mean that it is not worthy of praise in another context or by another listener. Every sound attribute has two sides - it can be a strength or a weakness, depending on the observer and their subjective preferences and the music they are using. You seem adamant on spinning every attribute of the YH-5K as a positive, and painting those who think of them as negatives as closed-minded. I appreciate that people champion headphones, but you go beyond that to claim that every criticism that people have of the YH-5K is actually a strength and that others just don't realize it. There's a term for that sort of behavior...

I'm not going to quote your whole diatribe against Kammerat, but you seem to be taking offense at statements that aren't supposed to be offensive. Like you go off about him implying that people like peaks, but the thing is that everyone has peaks in their hearing; the outer ear and ear canal have resonances that will naturally form peaks in our hearing and we expect there to be peaks at those locations. Look at any FR graph and you will see that all headphones have peaks in their response. Many people think Stax headphones sound great, and those have peaks. In fact, the similarity of the YH-5K's midrange peak with the Staxen's midrange peak means that the YH-5K has a number of qualities reminiscent of Stax. Many people like Hifiman headphones and those have peaks too. Same deal even for Sennheisers. And other people think those headphones sound bad because of those same peaks. Different people have different tolerance and variation in hearing for peaks, so it's not worth it to get up in arms about someone claiming something about a peak here or there. You seem to get offended when he says that people like peaks, and I'm saying that you don't need to get offended; it's fine and natural to like peaks and what those peaks add to the sound as a whole. And I don't even agree with Kammerat's view on the Yamaha; I find it more interesting than he does, and I'm not bothered by the same things he is bothered by, but I understand his criticisms, share some of them too, and realize that the Yamaha simply isn't going to win everyone over.

To go back to that concept car analogy, the YH-5K is like a concept car that Yamaha used to test out all of these technologies and tuning decisions. They designed it to be sensitive to the chain so that audiophiles could have fun finding the synergies, and I think they achieved that, but that sensitivity isn't automatically a good thing. It works for some people and not for others, and I'm thinking that people who have more down-to-earth budgets aren't going to be pleased with a headphone that requires you to build your chain around it. And I'm sure that Yamaha engineers are looking at the feedback and finding out which synergies people preferred most to tune their next models in that direction. Just like a concept car is packed full of crazy technologies and design elements that most people aren't going to want or need, but eventually the ideas that people like are going to trickle down into real-world models. The YH-5K had some very interesting qualities, and I'm curious to see how those will be developed in these new models.

 

[OVERHATE]

I loved the YH5000 when i auditioned them. They had a thick bass and a weird and strange tuning that worked amazingly for some songs, and terrible for others. Love headphones like that. But the price was exorbitant despite the build, hopefully one of these is sub 2K

 

[voja]

Thank you for clearing some things up. However, you're still putting words in my mouth, which I do not appreciate.

I'm not arguing that the Yamaha is bad, but that it has many attributes that can be regarded as weaknesses depending on your point of view.

Yes, I agree. It depends on the listener's experience, which I am suggesting depends on the chain it's paired with [from my experience].

You say that the Yamaha can act like multiple headphones, but if half of the pairings sound bad and don't work, then I'm sure you see why that would be a problem for some people. A headphone that is picky with the chain is not going to be for everyone and not everyone will appreciate that variability.

Absolutely! That's why I am trying to get people to understand that it's likely down to their chain. I feel like those who didn't like it went straight to attack both Yamaha and the headphones... If someone doesn't reach a desirable sound profile, of course they won't appreciate the variability, or lack thereof. The thing is, some people have really expensive DACs and amps, and think that just because they cost so much, they heard all this headphone has to offer. I have a problem with that.

I'm trying to get people to be open-minded and acknowledge the possibility of this headphone sounding drastically different based on what it's paired with. Why is it that those of us who got it to sound great, and shared that, our observations got invalidated? You see the problem with that? Let's paint a whole picture, not show one side of it and call it the whole picture.

Every sound attribute has two sides - it can be a strength or a weakness, depending on the observer and their subjective preferences and the music they are using. You seem adamant on spinning every attribute of the YH-5K as a positive, and painting those who think of them as negatives as closed-minded.

This is false. You are downplaying the fact that Kammerat dismissed my observations and literally accused me of loving/enjoying peaks. My ears got used to them. No, sorry. You are once again manipulating the truth. I never criticized anyone disliking the YH-5000SE, but tried to get them to be open to the idea of that headphone sounding amazing through chain changes. If you want, you can go back to my posts here or on the YH-5000SE, and just read what I am actually criticizing.

If multiple people report that the headphone's sound drastically changes through chain changes, and you are fully aware of this and still deny it as a possibility, that would make you closed-minded, no? That means that you are only accepting your own experience as the truth =)

so it's not worth it to get up in arms about someone claiming something about a peak here or there. You seem to get offended when he says that people like peaks, and I'm saying that you don't need to get offended; it's fine and natural to like peaks and what those peaks add to the sound as a whole.

Look, I got to hear the YH-5000SE with really sharp and forward peaks, and managed to get rid of those by changing the source. I think that's what people don't understand: I got to hear the same flawed YH-5000SE that you got to hear! But I discovered that it sound profile completely shifted when I changed the source. Am I supposed to support people twisting my words? Is that fine by you? Someone using your own words to force their own narrative. No, I'm sorry, again, I will not allow that to happen. It's not about being offended, it's about people viewing themselves above others and giving themselves the right to manipulate other people's words. It's attacking me, attacking my intellect, and attacking my intentions.

You have to understand, I am not a listener. I really do write with full honesty and write for the community. As a critic, I spent so much time developing a complex approach to verbalize what my ears hear... All just to be painted as someone who got used to the peaks? As someone who is trying to say that there's only the positives and that negatives don't exist? That's not me. Try to place yourself in my shoes. I go through an excruciating process to confirm what I am hearing, I translate that into words, share that here, only for someone to take it and try to convince me that I don't know what I heard. To say that my ears and head got used to the sound? That's gaslighting.

I'm not taking any of this close to the heart, but it's deeply messed up. That's why I am speaking out against it.

They designed it to be sensitive to the chain so that audiophiles could have fun finding the synergies, and I think they achieved that, but that sensitivity isn't automatically a good thing.​

This. Yamaha designed it this way! I did my homework, I did so much research for my article. They were aware of it's sensitivity to chain changes. I'm not going to go into the debate whether or not cables make a difference—I'm neutral as far as that is concerned—but Yamaha did state that they worked on the cable for a while before they found a mix that allowed them to achieve the desired sound. You have to understand how insane it is for anyone—any single one of us from the whole audio community—to assume that Yamaha didn't know what they were doing when creating this headphone. This company acoustically tuned a whole car engine! Once again, I hope this is not taken out of context and people understand what I am saying.
https://archive.yamaha.com/en/news_release/2009/20091021.html

I am most definitely not saying that it's automatically a good thing! That's not what I think.

It works for some people and not for others, and I'm thinking that people who have more down-to-earth budgets aren't going to be pleased with a headphone that requires you to build your chain around it.

This is only true if people cannot achieve great results with inexpensive chains. I never ruled out the possibility of constructing a functional inexpensive chain! In the food analogy part of the conclusion in my article, I said, "As far as I’m concerned, it could have the richest flavor when eaten off a cotton shirt!"

---

You still misunderstood some of my intentions and arguments, and used a few unnecessary personal jabs, but still, I want to thank you for sharing a more neutral response. I hope we are now at a more neutral ground when I clarified some of my own stances. I appreciate you.


I felt like my character and intentions got crucified in the past posts directed at me [in general], so I addressed those allegations and misunderstandings—whatever you want to call them. I think it's not okay, and I hope we are now past the stage of trading insults. I'm just someone who wants the community to experience the same YH-5000SE I got to experience, and if not, I want it to experience a YH-5000SE that they love. That's why I spent so much time on writing my article. I want to hear more people achieving desirable results with the YH-5000SE, and want them to share that. And also want people to share the non-functional setups so we know what doesn't work!

 

[OVERHATE]

omg cant you guys take it into DM's instead and measure your things somewhere else?

 

[Ike1985]

Yes, you're right. You get 2% more sound quality for 800% more cash outlay.

It's way more than 2%. = P

 

[Rolu]

They might be joking

The guy above me started it

 

[aznablerey]

Well this has been a fun read.

I hope Yamaha did their homework and retuned the headphone(s) according to user feedback.

I won’t argue anyone, so spare yourself engaging with me. I’m just going to drop off my 25¢ and piss off…

1) Higher cost doesn’t guarantee quality.

2) Also cables only make an audible difference if they’re doing something wrong lol so have fun with that.

Yamaha, if you’re reading- I love your motorbikes and pianos, I wish your headphones were as naturally performing.

 

[GREQ]

I'll see if I can get to High End Munich this year.
Very much looking forward to trying out the new models.
Hopefully Yamaha has their own source chain so I can hear what they're all truly capable of.

 

[F208Frank]

Can't say if it is intentional but that image looked like the headlights of the Yamaha R1!

I had owned 3 different Yamaha R6 bikes in my younger days.

1 was stolen
1 was dropped
1 was sold

Haha.

 

[MDKrinkles]

omg cant you guys take it into DM's instead and measure your things somewhere else?

Yeah I mean as much as I love sponsor announcement posts turning into weird personal arguments I’m also ya know interested in the actual new products.

I don’t spend a ton of time reading through threads here but I mean I’ve genuinely never seen people get personal or rude outside of sponsor announcement posts. Maybe it’s the speculative nature that brings out arguments? Idk. It can be entertaining I guess?

 

[SolarCetacean]

I don’t spend a ton of time reading through threads here but I mean I’ve genuinely never seen people get personal or rude outside of sponsor announcement posts. Maybe it’s the speculative nature that brings out arguments? Idk. It can be entertaining I guess?

It's more common on the forums than you think, though it might not be in threads that you frequent. In general, the thread for any polarizing headphone (or amps/DACs in general) will have some level of confrontational discussion as fans and detractors square off. Much of the spat in this thread originated in even more heated exchanges in the YH-5000 thread. In any case, what else is there to do? No one has heard these, so we can't discuss actual listening impressions. We can't do any comparisons, no questions can be answered, and there's not much to say other than "I [did/didn't] like the previous entries, I hope this one is good!" Which is what everyone has been saying in this thread.

I for one am curious about the closed-back in particular. Closed-back planars have been rare, and the ones that have been good (e.g. DCA headphones) haven't entirely been to my taste. However, the orthodynamic driver on the Yamahas has a physical shape that seems a bit more like a dynamic driver (spiral magnet trace rather than switchback), so it might act a bit more similarly to a dynamic driver. That's just speculation on my part though.

 

[Beagle]

Yeah I mean as much as I love sponsor announcement posts turning into weird personal arguments I’m also ya know interested in the actual new products.

I don’t spend a ton of time reading through threads here but I mean I’ve genuinely never seen people get personal or rude outside of sponsor announcement posts. Maybe it’s the speculative nature that brings out arguments? Idk. It can be entertaining I guess?

People can go postal around here when they are teased with a potential new headphone product. The as of now non-existent fantasy dream tends to recall previous
products by this manufacturer and then the arguing over those commences.