[regal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCans /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes every dac does have a roll off but the pic below posted by a member here shows: white is EMU0404, Green is 19MK3. Now it may not be terribly audible given it still within 2.5db at 20k, but it is a roll off none the less that begins nearly at 5k. I am not suggesting this dac sounds dull or anything of the sort, that is for each to decide on their own. To me it would be nice if it wasn't there.

Having designed a few DAC's I can tell you that this graph is the sign of a good filter, it is called a slow-roll-off filter as opposed to a steep filter. IMO slow roll-off is more accurate because it has less phase distortion (something not measured with the EMU.)

 

[Currawong]

It's also worth adding that, at 10k, it's only 0.5 dB down, and only 2 dB down at 20k, which will have barely any audible effect (note that what we call "treble" is 2k to 10k to put it into perspective). If you stretched that graph out to -80 dB (considering normal listening levels are about 80 dB) that roll-off would be barely visible, if that helps visualise things.

 

[wavoman]

A few comments --

1. I'm pretty impressed with the Matrix DAC (sold new, on eBay only). Got a number of good reviews here. I purchased it for its ability to handle 192, and to use as a SPDIF diagnostic tool (it has a front panel bitrate display like Bel Canto, passes SPDIF thru -- converting optical to coax if need be -- and has a HP jack ... incredible combo for deugging SPDIF problems!). Sounds good too ... only $350, very strong offering.

2. I also love the SQ of the moodlab concept. I put a Monarchy DIP oversampler in front of it, coercing everything to 96 before the DAC. This (as another poster suggests) goes in to a tube amp (Head-Direct EF1) and then with Senn 600s or HF2's I have an amazing system, using a legacy all-metal Sony 555 Walkman with optical SPDIF out as the source. This is a "mini" CD system any audiophile would admire.

Picasa Web Albums - larry

Even in pure NOS mode the moodlab sounds great (sometimes I remove the Monarchy from the rack for use elsewhere).

 

[FauDrei]

I like my DacMagic in my office setup - it brings "more life" to my lossy portable music library. But his dual differential upsampling DAC chips can not compete on the level of "old" PCM1704 chip.

...as for roll-off "problem": the best hi-end DACs (f.e. Mark Levinson 30.6, various Wadia models) exhibit the similar response. One should be more worried how does it sound than how it measures.

IMO, in half $K DAC range 19mk3 is the best offer with a margin.

 

[Uri Cohen]

Thanks guys for the comments. Keep them coming!

It looks like that I might be adding a Stereo Receiver in the sound mix soon for $60. Getting a good ole Marantz 2226 from the late 70s. Personally I didn't feel like paying a lot for a new sound receiver so this one came in at a good price.

Right now my HP set up is pretty damn good ATM. I was planning to upgrade to the RS2i but I really, really like the SR225i right now so that upgrade is being on HOLD for god knows how long.

I will most likely put the receiver away from now until I'm able to find excellent speakers for them (most likely in the Fall).

My DAC is still doing great for the money and the Little Dot is great as well.

Decisions, Decisions.

 

[MikeW]

your asking opinions of dac's a year before your ready to commit to a purchase? seriously? there's no telling what will be availible then, your wasting your time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HyperDuel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well guys thanks for the comments. The 19MKIII will be in my short list, but the deal is do I really need a new DAC when my Monitor 02 US does the job just fine (the Monitor only has digital outputs, not inputs). I'll most likely order it if Audio GD still makes them late next year. Late next year is when I can really consider upgrading for real.

 

[regal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW /img/forum/go_quote.gif your asking opinions of dac's a year before your ready to commit to a purchase? seriously? there's no telling what will be availible then, your wasting your time.

high hoping is what its called.

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW /img/forum/go_quote.gif your asking opinions of dac's a year before your ready to commit to a purchase? seriously? there's no telling what will be availible then, your wasting your time.

Technically, I believe he is wasting our time, but the beauty of this thread is that others may well be able to make a purchase based on some of the advice given here. It would seem that we are spoilt for choice in terms of affordable DACs atm, so its all good.

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCans /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes every dac does have a roll off but the pic below posted by a member here shows: white is EMU0404, Green is 19MK3. Now it may not be terribly audible given it still within 2.5db at 20k, but it is a roll off none the less that begins nearly at 5k. I am not suggesting this dac sounds dull or anything of the sort, that is for each to decide on their own. To me it would be nice if it wasn't there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by regal /img/forum/go_quote.gif Having designed a few DAC's I can tell you that this graph is the sign of a good filter, it is called a slow-roll-off filter as opposed to a steep filter. IMO slow roll-off is more accurate because it has less phase distortion (something not measured with the EMU.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's also worth adding that, at 10k, it's only 0.5 dB down, and only 2 dB down at 20k, which will have barely any audible effect (note that what we call "treble" is 2k to 10k to put it into perspective). If you stretched that graph out to -80 dB (considering normal listening levels are about 80 dB) that roll-off would be barely visible, if that helps visualise things.

Hi,

I totally agree with regal and Currawong comments about the measurements (By the way I am the one who did the measurements using the EMU 0404 usb as a recroding device).

I was also puzzled by the measurements back when I did them and I e-mailed Kingwa from audio-gd to explain the reason behind it. Well, according to the designer, the filter was made like that in purpose to give the best phase response among other things.
He also said that he could remove it in order to get a flat measurement but he said that it would degrade the sound quality. The EMU measures flat probably because it uses steep filters (or even lack one ?).

As for the sound, the roll off is not noticeable. In fact, the dac-19mk3 sounds more detailed in the highs in comparison with the EMU 0404 usb. Also, I measured both digital filters (PMD100 and DF1704) and they gave me similar results.
However, I found that high frequencies are "boosted" and more extended with the DF1704 but they still measure the same.

By the way, I found a measurement of the $28,000 naim cd player that has a comparable roll off in the highs (you can look at the results here). The naim uses comparable pcm1704 uk dacs and I doubt that they would have put an analog filter that measured like that if it didn't improve the sound of their flagship CD player.

To sum up, in my opinion, people should not be concerned too much by a slight roll off in the highs (something like -2db at 20khz). There are other parameters (such as the way transients are handled) that would make a DAC sound "dull", "bright", "fat" or "lean". Unfortunately, as far as I know, it would take more than the EMU 0404 usb and the RMAA I used to properly measure such things (if they are even measurable).

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by slim.a /img/forum/go_quote.gif To sum up, in my opinion, people should not be concerned too much by a slight roll off in the highs (something like -2db at 20khz). There are other parameters (such as the way transients are handled) that would make a DAC sound "dull", "bright", "fat" or "lean". Unfortunately, as far as I know, it would take more than the EMU 0404 usb and the RMAA I used to properly measure such things (if they are even measurable).

Well said. I agree.

 

[SilverCans]

Sadly the 19MK3 is no longer available. I wonder, and hope, the replacement model is even better. Anyone have insight on the new model that Kingwa has cooking?

 

[Uri Cohen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCans /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sadly the 19MK3 is no longer available. I wonder, and hope, the replacement model is even better. Anyone have insight on the new model that Kingwa has cooking?

Don't know. I'm hoping that I can get a new DAC soon. After getting this receiver today I will be needing some speakers and a DAC.

 

[jsplice]

You should be able to find a used PS Audio Digital Link III for around 500. Extremely good dac for the money. It has a very warm, smooth sound, with incredible dynamics. After briefly owning the Audio-Gd Compass, I'm a bit skeptical of the remainder of their product line. I of course can't judge it because I haven't heard the rest of their dacs, but the Compass was far from impressive. The price was adjusted from $400 down to $280 on the Compass, which I believe is a more suitable value.

EDIT: I also owned a DacMagic for a year before getting the DL III. My suggestion is to get a used DL III instead of a new/used DacMagic..the DL III blows it away.

 

[Currawong]

I emailed Kingwa before about the DAC19 a couple of weeks ago or so and I gather he's re-designing it and the Compass to use a different USB input chip as the current one wasn't available any longer.

 

[Vic Trola]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not modified in any way.....Joe is blowing marketing smoke. He prefers the B version which is the DF1704 filter while the A version has the widely loved PMD100 HDCD filter chip. I find it curious that Joe likes the DF1704 while most here prefer the PMD100 chip...go figure. I certainly did not get the impression from post's here WRT the PMD100 module that the unit lacked anything of the kind....oh well....different strokes for different folks. There is nothing in this model that can't be bought directly from Kingwa.....you simply buy both modules (A &B) at the time of order. Peete.

I guess it is because we heard and have had, the original version(DAC 19SE) that was truly magical. The "A" version lacked some of this magic, it returned with the "B" - although not completely. Although I would agree on most of your points. We do not mean to imply that the "A" version sounded bad, not by any means. Its just that the "B" version sounds so different. If you like the "A" sound, then the 3SE does this in droves. But, in my pretzel logic that you are now reading and I am writing, the "A" version, with its different sonic character, still beats the pants off of any other DAC in the price range - sans our modded MD-10 (that was a plug), where the bass goes deeper than the 19, and the mids a little softer.

Net-Net, my opinion is that the "A" version sounds like a class "A" preamp, and the "B" version sound like a NOS DAC, but with more resolution. Hence our excitement about the "B".

I also agree, that the PMD100 is superior in most applications. The DAC 19 Mk3 is not one of those, IMO.

I also agree, that at times I and/or Joe blows marketing smoke (we just cannot help ourselves sometimes) but, Audio gd calls it the "B" mod, or at least they use to, and I just copied it. The genius is in the plagiarism.