Empire Ears - Discussion & Impressions (Formerly EarWerkz)
Oct 14, 2021 at 12:38 AM Post #33,556 of 40,613
Like making love in the dark, turning on the lights to find out that the person you’re in bed with isn’t your partner of all these years, LOL.
😂😂😂 superb analogy. Partner randomly has Weapon 10s upgrade in the chest and you’re just thrown off your routine.

I am also noticing interesting BCD on tracks like Björk’s Hunter”-the intro “bass pings” that float fast left to right have incredible 3D-like heft to them, haven’t heard it like that before. And @SeeSax can vouch but Hans Zimmer’s “Why So Serious”, 3:25 onwards is truly a treat on EVO. Most prominent depths of subbass I’ve heard-again, likely due to the W10 weight. More of a feeling than actual sound.
 

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Oct 14, 2021 at 1:05 AM Post #33,557 of 40,613
That escalated reallllllllly quickly.

Anyways,

I think the conclusion is that the Evo isn't really the LX 2.0 or upgrade that a lot of folks were expecting or hyping for in the lead up to actual units getting into the market.

To be very fair, Jack saying that there wouldn't be upgrade to the LX in hindsight still holds. The Evo is not an upgrade to the LX, and Empire has never claimed that it was (to my knowledge).

I'm actually excited to hear the Evo myself since it might lineup to my preferences for something with LX lineage.
Yeah. They should have called it Thor and be done with it. 😅
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 1:06 AM Post #33,558 of 40,613
Hmm oh dear. I don’t listen to Massive Attack but went to hear those portions that you’ve indicated. I cannot imagine if this would be what I’m hearing - do you think this can be amelierioated or eliminated with (more) burn in? I’ll be receiving EVO next week and will test out with metal/hard rock music.
Hmm.., just did the same in Apple Music with Angel (Remastered 2018) on M8 with FitEar Titans. No issue as @Auricon experienced.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 1:13 AM Post #33,559 of 40,613
😂😂😂 superb analogy. Partner randomly has Weapon 10s upgrade in the chest and you’re just thrown off your routine.

I am also noticing interesting BCD on tracks like Björk’s Hunter”-the intro “bass pings” that float fast left to right have incredible 3D-like heft to them, haven’t heard it like that before. And @SeeSax can vouch but Hans Zimmer’s “Why So Serious”, 3:25 onwards is truly a treat on EVO. Most prominent depths of subbass I’ve heard-again, likely due to the W10 weight. More of a feeling than actual sound.

Damn, listening to your Zimmer recommendation, feels like the EVOs are going to jump out of my ears!
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 1:20 AM Post #33,560 of 40,613
Listening to Massive Attack’s “Angel - remaster” starting at 00:13 and noticeable through 01:12 where vocals start, the 2nd rhythmic deep bass beats starts but at the end of every beat - it’s ends with metallic-like hollow echo. It becomes more noticeable again at 5:44 and 06:00 until end. Hard to describe it sounds almost like hitting a hollow wooden block - it’s a bit disconcerting and shows on both the Socrates and Aeneid and all ear tips from Final E, Azla SendaEarFits short and Xelastics.

Tested the track on both UM MEST Mk2 and Traillii using the same cables and eartips - the bass beat ends clean and defined. Listened to the identical version on Apple Music and local FLAC off microSD off 3MAX. Granted it’s a single track of tens of thousands but bummed since it’s in the top 5 of my playlist.

From no cable to bass… sigh…
Uh... yeah... if there are extra tones on that kick on Massive Attack's Angel... that aren't actually in the recording... that's quite alarming.

I don't have my EVO yet. If I listen on Legend X, I might be hearing a little extra tone on the very last few kicks at the very end of the tune. But it's very low level and something you wouldn't normally really notice unless you're listening for it. I don't hear any kind of added tone to the kick anywhere else on the track... just a straight kick, dry, with no room tone or any "echo" or tail.

So if you're hearing that on the EVO... that's worrying me. I listen to a lot of electronic dub and abstract music with low end sub electronic bass, synth, and sub low end tones. I really don't want added tones or coloration from the IEM... just high accuracy sub low end.

Would be good if some others that have the EVO already could check that track out and see what you hear... even if it's not something you'd normally listen to.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 1:53 AM Post #33,562 of 40,613
😂😂😂 superb analogy. Partner randomly has Weapon 10s upgrade in the chest and you’re just thrown off your routine.

I am also noticing interesting BCD on tracks like Björk’s Hunter”-the intro “bass pings” that float fast left to right have incredible 3D-like heft to them, haven’t heard it like that before. And @SeeSax can vouch but Hans Zimmer’s “Why So Serious”, 3:25 onwards is truly a treat on EVO. Most prominent depths of subbass I’ve heard-again, likely due to the W10 weight. More of a feeling than actual sound.
Woah, I can feel that sub-bass and I've never experienced that before.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 1:53 AM Post #33,563 of 40,613
Maybe it's only at fairly high volume?

Or perhaps it's on the recording but only being heard the first time. I'm hearing tape bleed and all sorts of other little anomalies with the EVO that I haven't heard before.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 2:04 AM Post #33,564 of 40,613
I had EE graph mine with their rig which is beyond what most independent graphing folks can reasonably afford. I don’t know if it was normalized or smoothed but I don’t recall seeing the same treble dive that’s depicted in most available graphs. I suspect the more expensive equipment has a much higher sensitivity.
Measurement rigs like Crin's aren't generally reliable beyond 8-10kHz. He says it himself on his disclaimers. You'd need the ones the brands have to get reliable measurements there.

This is a great point! I think we need to carefully separate the resolution and harshness. In my view, the harshness comes from...
the time-domain characteristics of reproducing sharp transients. Think square wave which can be approximated by a sum of odd harmonics. If the IEM is capable of reproducing all the odd harmonics, then you will get a really harsh square wave like the noise you hear from modems and digital noise. In reality, as evident from the graphs, IEMs have peaks and troughs which change the shape of the square wave (if present in recordings) such that the corners get rounded (or exhibit sharper ringing, in a worse case). So this harshness comes from collective frequency domain characteristics, hence difficult to spot. It's not because of single frequency peaks.

On topic, EVO arrived today and I'm actually enjoying it!

img3828.jpg

As a background, this is my first EE purchase. Never heard LX. Only auditioned Odin from @CL14715. I don't consider myself bass-head and I was always afraid of the so-called "L" shaped sound... :sweat_smile: But Odin actually sounded quite good and balanced which pushed me to try the Evo. Odin was a little bit too dry and brittle throughout the spectrum for me.

Fast forward to today, Evo arrived. Put on my own Final-E (assuming that is what EE intended) and uh ok. Some upper mid forwardness (pedal steel guitar in country music) and plasticy timbre. I prefer a wide bore tips with this. Put on the Spiral dots and now the leading edge is slightly smoother, better balance and spaciousness overall.

img3829.jpg

Now the cable... my impression is that this is basically a nicer appointment PW No.5. It doesn't extend like the 1960/Orphy and it has a tendency to make the upper mids brittle, in my experience. Switched out to Orphy and ohhh my goodness! I have a much better filled mid-bass to low-mids, smooth extension on both ends, very musical!

Compared to MEST, I think this BCD has a more obvious effect which helps to image the sound outside of your head. I use Aeropex BCD headsets for work and exercise so I'm very familiar with the BCD effect. This BCD seems to kick in even at low volume. Must have been tough to balance BCD, BAs, and DD.

Still very early. Got other cables/tips/DAP to try. I think this might make a nice compliment to the bird!
Well, that's it, isn't it? It's how certain IEMs' frequency responses can emphasise certain components of the recordings, while others don't. Those IEMs aren't revealing anything new that the others aren't. They just happen to clash there with the recording. Sometimes, "peaks" themselves are also difficult to spot because the entire region's elevated. I recall an in-ear like the FiR M4, which has a bit of tizz to it at around 5kHz, but it wasn't evident on its graph because the frequencies leading up to it had risen as well. There are also sets of peaks that are generally found to be harsh. The 6-and-10kHz pairing is one of them. My ears tend to prefer the 5-and-8kHz pairing a lot more. But, yeah, it'll ultimately come down to individual preferences and tolerances.

Pretty sure it's full range, @Jack Vang is that the case?
Jack stated that the WX driver covers frequencies from 5Hz to 35kHz on the EVO's reveal post, so it covers more frequencies than all the other drivers combined.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 2:42 AM Post #33,565 of 40,613
Delivery was super early and received my EVO. Just out of the box, I’m having a visceral audio experience, quite unlike what I’ve experienced. I seem to feel vibrations in my head. Emblas Saga by Brothers of Metal on EVO was particularly interesting with the female vocals in the opening entrance in my head/face… let’s see how (brain) burn in goes.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 3:13 AM Post #33,566 of 40,613
Delivery was super early and received my EVO. Just out of the box, I’m having a visceral audio experience, quite unlike what I’ve experienced. I seem to feel vibrations in my head. Emblas Saga by Brothers of Metal on EVO was particularly interesting with the female vocals in the opening entrance in my head/face… let’s see how (brain) burn in goes.

Looking forward to your impressions of EVO with metal. And I won’t hear a bad word about that particularly pairing! :p
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 3:42 AM Post #33,567 of 40,613
Apologies in advance for the lengthy multi-post, but you know, time zones...
One thing I've never managed to reconcile is the correlation between resolution and harshness.
It's not necessarily resolution on its own, but resolution + FR emphasis + track. So a highly resolving IEM that's upper-mid emphasised playing a track with lots of upper-mid energy (that may or may not have iherent recording flaws) will be harder on that track than a lower resolution IEM with less midrange emphasis. Wouldn't it be lovely if an IEM could just adapt itself to every track and hide the flaws...maybe that's what we mean by 'safe' tuning?
My main gripe with the Evo has never really been about tuning, it’s been about that “grain/harshness” I am hearing.
To me, EVO is revealing grain/hardness in tracks where, with my other IEMs, that FR range has either been recessed, de-emphasised, or just plain less resolving. Busy testing one of five different versions of Pink Floyd's 'Time' and the electric guitar solo (3:12 - 4:09) definitely sounds more forward and 'harder/grainier' on EVO than it does on LX or IE 900 (with the IE 900 being partocularly 'light' in this FR, which was a conscious tuning choice). That the EVO is more resolving than both IEMs means I'm also hearing every grain compared to the 'smoothed over' rendition I'm getting with the other IEMs. Now, switch to another Pink Floyd classic, 'Hey You' from The Wall, and a very similar guitar solo sounds ever so smooth and resolving and pitch-perfect on EVO, with plenty of crunch and edge but no grain or hardness, depsite the forwardness...with the caveat here that The Wall recording is far superior to all five versions (including the DSD) of Dark Side. Which tells me recording quality is key. Hence high resolution + upper-mid emphasis + poor/compressed recording = not ideal EVO fodder.
So that 4-5khz bump is what some folks are bothered by, I'm assuming Crin’s was straight out of the box, and as noted above there's no measuring bone conduction (that I'm aware of). @gLer I wasn't able to listen to those tracks (I will later tonight), was it simply overload distortion?
On these particular tracks (esp Island) it's not so much distortion as it is compression with over-emphasised upper-mid/lower-treble energy burned in to the track (at least that's how I hear it).
I prefer a wide bore tips with this. Put on the Spiral dots and now the leading edge is slightly smoother, better balance and spaciousness overall.
Definitely! Spiral Dot are a bit too diffuse for me and flatten the stage somewhat. To my ears, AET07 add back some sharpness/focus sans harshness, while expanding the stage, and the bass kicks more precisely. Narrow-bore like Final E has always messed up the mids too much for my liking, though it's ok with EVO (I just happen to prefer the comfort/sound of the 07s).
Switched out to Orphy and ohhh my goodness! I have a much better filled mid-bass to low-mids, smooth extension on both ends, very musical!
Oh yes...switched out to Cardas Clear (1950s equivalent) and the stage is wider, bass more precise and controlled without losing kick, and upper-mids/treble more delicate (yet still energetic). The irony here, for me, is that with all the hoo-ha about Genesis failures with the first batch, chances are folks will be switching Genesis out for 'better' cables as a matter of course.
Listening to Massive Attack’s “Angel - remaster” starting at 00:13 and noticeable through 01:12 where vocals start, the 2nd rhythmic deep bass beats starts but at the end of every beat - it’s ends with metallic-like hollow echo. It becomes more noticeable again at 5:44 and 06:00 until end. Hard to describe it sounds almost like hitting a hollow wooden block - it’s a bit disconcerting and shows on both the Socrates and Aeneid and all ear tips from Final E, Azla SendaEarFits short and Xelastics.
I think I'm hearing what you're hearing, but to me it sounds like EVO is resolving something in that second bass note that I couldn't hear with my other IEMs. It sounds more precise too. That said it's so subtle, it's hardly something I'd even pay attention to if you didn't mention it, but FWIW I enjoy that track more on EVO than LX or IE 900.
I honestly think that could be an extreme case of the BCD working some unique voodoo? Echo is one of the potential effects of the W10 I imagine. Less noticeable as the subbass starts ramping up.
Could well be, as I've heard extra detail and aspects of tracks I'm very familiar with on EVO that I haven't heard with other IEMs. Also, EVO empasising different FR more than the other IEMs means my focus is pulled more to part of tracks the others previously glossed over, and vice versa. It's definitely not your run-of-the-mill safe tuning, and will likely take some brain burn-in time, especially if you're switching between IEMs. Something that sounds 'wrong' on EVO usually does so in direct comparison to other IEMs, or because it's presented differently to what you're used to. But give it a few listens, and some exclusive ear time, and you'll notice the ship 'righting itself' to the point where switching to other IEMs just makes them sound veiled or lacking in cerrain areas. (Also, the reverse can be true, if EVO sn't your cup of tea).
Or perhaps it's on the recording but only being heard the first time. I'm hearing tape bleed and all sorts of other little anomalies with the EVO that I haven't heard before.
Yep, like I said above, I'm hearing new parts to tracks I know well. I don't think it's a case of EVO adding anything, rather a combination of specific FR emphasis, higher resolution than most IEMs I've heard, and the 'unknown quantity' that is BCD. Since my BCD hearing is somewhat better than my air conduction (ear drum) hearing (as confimed by my last audiologist visit), it's very likely I'm able to hear and feel things with EVO that I simply can't with other IEMs. This effect is likely less prominent if you have equally excellent air/BCD hearing.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 3:57 AM Post #33,568 of 40,613
Looking forward to your impressions of EVO with metal. And I won’t hear a bad word about that particularly pairing! :p
I’ve not tried many tracks and I guess it’s still early, if and how burn in works in this context. I do find certain songs thickly presented in certain portions of the song which I don’t hear with any of my other IEMs. And yes, I’ll be keeping my LX - it remains my top love which remains unsurpassed. I think I’m quite sensitive to the BCD, I feel a little fatigued by it. Akin to how I’m in a rock/metal concert, it is very energetic but will need to take a break lol…
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 4:02 AM Post #33,569 of 40,613
I’ve not tried many tracks and I guess it’s still early, if and how burn in works in this context. I do find certain songs thickly presented in certain portions of the song which I don’t hear with any of my other IEMs. And yes, I’ll be keeping my LX - it remains my top love which remains unsurpassed. I think I’m quite sensitive to the BCD, I feel a little fatigued by it. Akin to how I’m in a rock/metal concert, it is very energetic but will need to take a break lol…
I'm definitely listening to EVO at lower volume than other IEMs without feeling that I'm missing out on detail or bass. That could be a good or bad thing, depending on your preferences. I'd love to know what volume Dean tunes his IEMs at, because they are wildly different at different volumes.
 
Oct 14, 2021 at 4:08 AM Post #33,570 of 40,613
Apologies in advance for the lengthy multi-post, but you know, time zones...

It's not necessarily resolution on its own, but resolution + FR emphasis + track. So a highly resolving IEM that's upper-mid emphasised playing a track with lots of upper-mid energy (that may or may not have iherent recording flaws) will be harder on that track than a lower resolution IEM with less midrange emphasis. Wouldn't it be lovely if an IEM could just adapt itself to every track and hide the flaws...maybe that's what we mean by 'safe' tuning?

To me, EVO is revealing grain/hardness in tracks where, with my other IEMs, that FR range has either been recessed, de-emphasised, or just plain less resolving. Busy testing one of five different versions of Pink Floyd's 'Time' and the electric guitar solo (3:12 - 4:09) definitely sounds more forward and 'harder/grainier' on EVO than it does on LX or IE 900 (with the IE 900 being partocularly 'light' in this FR, which was a conscious tuning choice). That the EVO is more resolving than both IEMs means I'm also hearing every grain compared to the 'smoothed over' rendition I'm getting with the other IEMs. Now, switch to another Pink Floyd classic, 'Hey You' from The Wall, and a very similar guitar solo sounds ever so smooth and resolving and pitch-perfect on EVO, with plenty of crunch and edge but no grain or hardness, depsite the forwardness...with the caveat here that The Wall recording is far superior to all five versions (including the DSD) of Dark Side. Which tells me recording quality is key. Hence high resolution + upper-mid emphasis + poor/compressed recording = not ideal EVO fodder.

On these particular tracks (esp Island) it's not so much distortion as it is compression with over-emphasised upper-mid/lower-treble energy burned in to the track (at least that's how I hear it).

Definitely! Spiral Dot are a bit too diffuse for me and flatten the stage somewhat. To my ears, AET07 add back some sharpness/focus sans harshness, while expanding the stage, and the bass kicks more precisely. Narrow-bore like Final E has always messed up the mids too much for my liking, though it's ok with EVO (I just happen to prefer the comfort/sound of the 07s).

Oh yes...switched out to Cardas Clear (1950s equivalent) and the stage is wider, bass more precise and controlled without losing kick, and upper-mids/treble more delicate (yet still energetic). The irony here, for me, is that with all the hoo-ha about Genesis failures with the first batch, chances are folks will be switching Genesis out for 'better' cables as a matter of course.

I think I'm hearing what you're hearing, but to me it sounds like EVO is resolving something in that second bass note that I couldn't hear with my other IEMs. It sounds more precise too. That said it's so subtle, it's hardly something I'd even pay attention to if you didn't mention it, but FWIW I enjoy that track more on EVO than LX or IE 900.

Could well be, as I've heard extra detail and aspects of tracks I'm very familiar with on EVO that I haven't heard with other IEMs. Also, EVO empasising different FR more than the other IEMs means my focus is pulled more to part of tracks the others previously glossed over, and vice versa. It's definitely not your run-of-the-mill safe tuning, and will likely take some brain burn-in time, especially if you're switching between IEMs. Something that sounds 'wrong' on EVO usually does so in direct comparison to other IEMs, or because it's presented differently to what you're used to. But give it a few listens, and some exclusive ear time, and you'll notice the ship 'righting itself' to the point where switching to other IEMs just makes them sound veiled or lacking in cerrain areas. (Also, the reverse can be true, if EVO sn't your cup of tea).

Yep, like I said above, I'm hearing new parts to tracks I know well. I don't think it's a case of EVO adding anything, rather a combination of specific FR emphasis, higher resolution than most IEMs I've heard, and the 'unknown quantity' that is BCD. Since my BCD hearing is somewhat better than my air conduction (ear drum) hearing (as confimed by my last audiologist visit), it's very likely I'm able to hear and feel things with EVO that I simply can't with other IEMs. This effect is likely less prominent if you have equally excellent air/BCD hearing.

Well, my point is that...
So a highly resolving IEM that's upper-mid emphasised playing a track with lots of upper-mid energy (that may or may not have iherent recording flaws) will be harder on that track than a lower resolution IEM with less midrange emphasis.
...would still be true, no?

Even if you took resolution out of the equation, you'd still run into the same issue. Similarly, if an IEM's FR played nicely with the track, then adding or reducing resolution wouldn't change that at all. So, it's ultimately a matter of FR, rather than one of technique. To your point that resolution worsens that clash - say, it plays a 10% role - there could be some merit to it. But, then, to me, you wouldn't attack and reduce the resolution to fix that issue, would you? You'd still reduce the offending frequency. So, again, it's a tonal matter to me.
 

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