[CL14715]

Not sure if that is a fair argument given a lot of these folks are using other summit-fi IEMs that are the antithesis of “muddy” and not hearing elevated, overloaded upper-mids, even on these same “non-audiophile” type tracks.

I want someone else with more cables to cable roll to confirm or deny, but I genuinely attribute initial “meh” impressions, myself included, to possibly the Genesis synergy, which kinda sucks but let’s see. I can even hear some of the BCD magic that I recall from Mason FS. I had literally 0 of that from stock cable. Thoroughly enjoying my listen

I am assuming this is directed towards me as I’m one of the only few that’s expressed some concern with upper mids and treble and given tracks to elaborate on my claims too.

I understand your theory about the way Evo is tuned and the way the music may be mastered. However, these are the two IEMs I am comparing. They are not drastically different in the upper mids to mid treble, they mainly differentiate in the upper treble.

The difference in what I perceive as quality in the highs of both is rather substantial. X has quite an upper mid range emphasis too but the rendition is silky smooth and free of any harshness. Now, I’m unsure if I find Evo harsh maybe because there’s less upper treble? I assumed the more elevated bass would help balance it out a bit, but it just comes off as harsh to me. There’s no way for me to really know. I can only go based off what my ears tell me.

No no, not that the other high end IEM’s are muddy but rather tuned with electronic music in mind whereas someone like dean aims solely for instrumental accuracy. I’d imagine there has to be a slight difference for an intended outcome here. I could be wrong, that’s why I wanted to hear other theories.

Tuning with electronic mixing in mind at a high level will sound phenomenal. Much like some of the options you’ve mentioned. On the other end, mixing to enhance energy and clarity for consumer tuned items will mimic that same end result but at a much lower level. I’m wondering where the middle ground is or the idea behind it all.

No @aaf evo not aimed at you at all. A few people expressed mixed feelings or similar concerns.

 

[Darkestred]

Here you go, both of these songs were coming off as harsh to me in the upper mid range and higher on the Evo:



(For this song basically the whole opening/any time Nevve is singing and then again at the drop around 1:48)



(For this one, it started at :58 seconds when she starts singing but got me around 1:25 and on)

Edit * typing as i listen so some contradictions...

I dont experience harshness on Island. Its all very smooth but i think i can kind of see where you are coming from (i have tinnitus maybe this is why). But, its very smooth and im listening pretty loud. Smooth.

However, i think i see what you are getting at the drop. Its very energetic but not harsh.

The bass is impressive on this song with the EVO.

-----

Illenium

Vocals once again very smooth to me but i can once again see where you are coming from. There is a spike in "intensity." I can feel the intensity in 1:25. Now i'll have to mess with my other offerings when i have some more free time. Yup. I hear where you are coming from. Not horrible but also not very far from possibly being considered unpleasant.

 

[aaf evo]

Edit * typing as i listen so some contradictions...

I dont experience harshness on Island. Its all very smooth but i think i can kind of see where you are coming from (i have tinnitus maybe this is why). But, its very smooth and im listening pretty loud. Smooth.

However, i think i see what you are getting at the drop. Its very energetic but not harsh.

The bass is impressive on this song with the EVO.

-----

Illenium

Vocals once again very smooth to me but i can once again see where you are coming from. There is a spike in "intensity." I can feel the intensity in 1:25. Now i'll have to mess with my other offerings when i have some more free time. Yup. I hear where you are coming from. Not horrible but also not very far from possibly being considered unpleasant.

I think it is more down to my own sensitivity there which is basically what I have been saying. I think it’s just “too much” for me in the upper mid range regardless. Still puzzling to me why I can listen to it just fine on the X though which has less bass than the Evo.

 

[Chill iLL]

Seems like a few people are ultimately, “meh” about the upper mids of the EVO. So I played some tracks as recommended to see what others were hearing. A common theme I noticed was the correlation of instrument accuracy and overloaded electronic tracks, with respect to the upper high / low treble.

Dean tunes his high mid to low treble ranges to mimic instrument energy and accuracy. Typically a group of musicians will consciously balance that out themselves to avoid too much going on there. With electronic mixes I think sometimes less conscious efforts are exercised to avoid being too energetic in that area. After all, a lot of electronic music is energetic and mixed with crazy next level tech to capture and reproduce that vibrancy. I’m almost curious if they master their tracks assuming most listeners will be hearing it on typical muddy consumerish headphones. It would make sense as that would offer additional definition and clarity to please or wow most listeners. Just a thought and not a critique or criticism of anyones musical choices.

If anyone knows I’d like to hear it. The science of it all is pretty interesting.

It's actually very common for solo musicians, as well as young producers to mix and master towards the lowest common denominator- since that is what the majority of their perceived audience will be listening to. I went to school for audio engineering and it was very commonly taught to almost always maximize your mix for a car or something like beats. It's also a reason the compression wars got as popular as they did.

 

[gnahra]

No no, not that the other high end IEM’s are muddy but rather tuned with electronic music in mind whereas someone like dean aims solely for instrumental accuracy. I’d imagine there has to be a slight difference for an intended outcome here. I could be wrong, that’s why I wanted to hear other theories.

Tuning with electronic mixing in mind at a high level will sound phenomenal. Much like some of the options you’ve mentioned. On the other end, mixing to enhance energy and clarity for consumer tuned items will mimic that same end result but at a much lower level. I’m wondering where the middle ground is or the idea behind it all.

No @aaf evo not aimed at you at all. A few people expressed mixed feelings or similar concerns.

i think you‘re asking a totally fair question.
not sure what the right answer is, but for me personally, I don’t think my problem is due to tuning with a specific genre in mind, only because i have similar issues across different IEMs and different manufacturers.

i think i am a bit of an outlier in terms of my sensitivity to upper mids and lower treble. I have found that range of frequencies to be tough on the fourte noir, hero, LXSE, v14, sultan LE, etc. i have not had the issue on the Erkly, U18s, bird, Solaris, EXT, Bomber, etc.
so I am not sure how the latter set of IEMs was tuned, but i would be surprised if all (or any frankly) were tuned with EDM in mind.
again, I think this is all about preferences. Plenty of folks whose opinions I think highly of love the upper mids/lower treble of the former set of IEMs that I cannot tolerate.

And, although I am selling my evo, there is a LOT to love about it. for me personally, given my preferences and sensitivities, the good stuff will never outweigh the challenges I heard unfortunately.

 

[CL14715]

It's actually very common for solo musicians, as well as young producers to mix and master towards the lowest common denominator- since that is what the majority of their perceived audience will be listening to. I went to school for audio engineering and it was very commonly taught to almost always maximize your mix for a car or something like beats. It's also a reason the compression wars got as popular as they did.

See now this provides great substance. In that same nerve, what would you say overall is the best way to tune for that market? Is there a particular frequency range that is emphasized typically or does it vary widely?

 

[Deferenz]

I think it is more down to my own sensitivity there which is basically what I have been saying. I think it’s just “too much” for me in the upper mid range regardless. Still puzzling to me why I can listen to it just fine on the X though which has less bass than the Evo.

Based on your comment on EVO, did you find Odin too much for you in the upper mids also?

 

[aaf evo]

Based on your comment on EVO, did you find Odin too much for you in the upper mids also?

Yeah but Odin to me never came off as harsh in quality, I just found the change from the lows to the upper mids way too drastic. I needed more low end. Evo brings that low end , but I hear harsh upper mids now. That is why I’m really confused. I think maybe my ears can only handle a certain threshold of that frequency before it just goes over the top for me? I don’t know. Doesn’t explain why I can handle X just fine. It is confusing to me, lol.

 

[Chill iLL]

See now this provides great substance. In that same nerve, what would you say overall is the best way to tune for that market? Is there a particular frequency range that is emphasized typically or does it vary widely?

It will definitely depend on what instruments are involved (virtual/plug-ins, electronic synths, real instruments etc.) as well as the genre of music. For example, in electronic music the key is to get a bass that is prominent in the mix, but does not clip. So compression will play a role here depending on what is being used. You can often hear the difference on something like Aphex Twin/Daft Punk where the songs are dynamic, the stage is big. There's a lot of analog instruments being used here in very specific ways. While more EDM type music, with more plug-in use, has a compressed dynamic range that is more about getting loud and getting that bass out there without clipping. Because of that kind of mix, you can have certain frequencies be louder than they would otherwise be- because the entire mix is getting squeezed down and then turned up for max volume. The initial studio mix is done in studio with monitors/headphones/speakers, but it will always be played on other stuff that's consumer driven and less expensive (especially the car), before it's mastered. However, for other genres of music, you will probably hear people talking most about frequency EQ when it comes to the drums. It takes a lot to get them right, even with great equipment, and something like symbols/snare can be extremely problematic if not mixed properly. See: St. Anger- Metallica. It is an absolute mess.

 

[CL14715]

i think you‘re asking a totally fair question.
not sure what the right answer is, but for me personally, I don’t think my problem is due to tuning with a specific genre in mind, only because i have similar issues across different IEMs and different manufacturers.

i think i am a bit of an outlier in terms of my sensitivity to upper mids and lower treble. I have found that range of frequencies to be tough on the fourte noir, hero, LXSE, v14, sultan LE, etc. i have not had the issue on the Erkly, U18s, bird, Solaris, EXT, Bomber, etc.
so I am not sure how the latter set of IEMs was tuned, but i would be surprised if all (or any frankly) were tuned with EDM in mind.
again, I think this is all about preferences. Plenty of folks whose opinions I think highly of love the upper mids/lower treble of the former set of IEMs that I cannot tolerate.

And, although I am selling my evo, there is a LOT to love about it. for me personally, given my preferences and sensitivities, the good stuff will never outweigh the challenges I heard unfortunately.

Understood. I have extremely sensitive hearing but have not found any sensitivity in regards to headphones or IEM’s. So it’s both intriguing and a mystery why some tunings land where they do with others.

This has nothing to do with your post @gnahra which I sincerely appreciate the respect but I figured I’d leave this here to avoid multi-posting. Full disclaimer since I can see my forwardness can sometimes be mistaken for hostility. I take no issue with others having preferential tunings or products outside of EE. I just happen to like their house sound. That being said I like others as well so it would be hypocritical for me to do so. I just don’t like when critiques come out of nonsensical places. This definitely isn’t one of those times. I think a broader understanding of what frequency areas hinder the audiophile community is both beneficial information for product development and competition. That’s why I asked. I’m just here to party.

I’m no audio engineer so I try to understand where the genres typically cross over into alternative tuning emphasis. There has to be some intention here. It can’t all be happy accidents as bob ross would say.

 

[CL14715]

It will definitely depend on what instruments are involved (virtual/plug-ins, electronic synths, real instruments etc.) as well as the genre of music. For example, in electronic music the key is to get a bass that is prominent in the mix, but does not clip. So compression will play a role here depending on what is being used. You can often hear the difference on something like Aphex Twin/Daft Punk where the songs are dynamic, the stage is big. There's a lot of analog instruments being used here in very specific ways. While more EDM type music, with more plug-in use, has a compressed dynamic range that is more about getting loud and getting that bass out there without clipping. Because of that kind of mix, you can have certain frequencies be louder than they would otherwise be- because the entire mix is getting squeezed down and then turned up for max volume. The initial studio mix is done in studio with monitors/headphones/speakers, but it will always be played on other stuff that's consumer driven and less expensive (especially the car), before it's mastered. However, for other genres of music, you will probably hear people talking most about frequency EQ when it comes to the drums. It takes a lot to get them right, even with great equipment, and something like symbols/snare can be extremely problematic if not mixed properly. See: St. Anger- Metallica. It is an absolute mess.

Incredible insight. Thank you

 

[aaf evo]

I’m going to leave the Evo on burn in over night. I want to see what happens when the cable is run in a bit, if anyone recalls my PW Orpheus impressions a few months ago on the PW and Traillii thread, they were entirely different after about 15-20 hours. We’ll see what happens.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

It's very common for solo musicians, as well as young producers to mix and master towards the lowest common denominator- since that is what the majority of their perceived audience will be listening to. I went to school for audio engineering and it was very commonly taught to almost always maximize your mix for a car or something like beats. It's also a reason the compression wars got as popular as they did.

This! Most “audiophiles,” tend to evaluate equipment primarily with un-amplified acoustic music. The reason being is that these instruments have a “sound” that isn't being manipulated by the engineer and is easily discernable and recognizable to a person who attends concerts, plays an acoustic instrument, or both. That way you have an “absolute sound,” that is immediately recognizable to a broad swath of people. You’ll of course have variations as intended by the artist, on rock, pop, EDM recorded since the early 2000s there's a lot of highly compressed dreck, I won't listen to 80% of it, even if I like it, the distortion is too distracting.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

One additional observation, I find that the fiddling I was doing with the EVO always left them in the same position. With my large ears I am tilting the EVO with cables up, at 90 degrees from the midpoint, this maximizes contact with the back of my earlobes. Try it, when you do this you’ll hear (and feel) the bass and lower mids “snap” into focus.

 

[GiullianSN]

It would be quite surprising that an IEM like LX/EVO were not tested/tuned with EDM/Electronic music AS WELL. If the pinnacle of the IEM is the low end, it is inevitable that people will want it for Electronic music.

I'm liking the discussion and learning about mixing and everything. But @aaf evo and @gnahra , can't be put against the wall for their preferences and opinions.