Either my ears are broken ~ Or this is all just a joke

[Jack C]

Quote:

 
 
We're outnumbered supersleuth - spending time at head-fi is like trying to survive in a world that's be taken over by crazy fast zombies (no offense to the zombies).
 
Jack - indeed headphone amps are different, and what you pointed out are "features".  What I'm trying to convey is that if an amp of adequate power makes something sound different (which to some people may be "better"), AND is objectively measurable, than it is either deliberately coloured (e.g. tubes), has too high a Zout for the headphone being driven, or has a feature like crossfeed or bass-boost enabled.
 
The OP wanted to know if his DT880 32ohm needed an amp.  The right answer is "no".  If he wanted to change the sound of the headphone without the use of an EQ by using a feature-rich or unique amp, then the answer would have precluded the OPs question.
 

Catharsis,
 
I don't know why you are so cynical and would resort to name-calling.
 
There is obviously a lot of puffery in the hi-fi world, but there are also real objective benefits - it's not healthy to fall towards either extremes. I was an electrical engineer by education and spent a couple of my working years doing small signal analog circuit design - during which I didn't sit around pondering whether vintage transistors gave me a better wave form.
 
Out of the 5 points I listed, only the last one includes "features", all the others deal with traits and characteristics that exist in any source/amp. For a demonstration of how a E7 that is not deliberately colored, with a near zero Zout, and no bass-boost enabled, can make an audible and measurable difference in sound, take a look at my post here:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/495707/fiio-e7-or-cmoy-bass-boost-v2-02#post_6781213
 
Given what I've demonstrated in the referenced post, to the question of whether the DT880 32Ohm needs an amp, the right answer is "it depends". 
 
Jack

 

[Catharsis]

 
Quote:

Catharsis,
 
I don't know why you are so cynical and would resort to name-calling.
 
There is obviously a lot of puffery in the hi-fi world, but there are also real objective benefits - it's not healthy to fall towards either extremes. I was an electrical engineer by education and spent a couple of my working years doing small signal analog circuit design - during which I didn't sit around pondering whether vintage transistors gave me a better wave form.
 
Out of the 5 points I listed, only the last one includes "features", all the others deal with traits and characteristics that exist in any source/amp. For a demonstration of how a E7 that is not deliberately colored, with a near zero Zout, and no bass-boost enabled, can make an audible and measurable difference in sound, take a look at my post here:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/495707/fiio-e7-or-cmoy-bass-boost-v2-02#post_6781213
 
Given what I've demonstrated in the referenced post, to the question of whether the DT880 32Ohm needs an amp, the right answer is "it depends". 
 
Jack

 
Hi Jack,
 
I think what you're saying, is that the E7 (I have the E5), makes up for shortcomings in the D2 player?  I've seen RMAA results before with load impedance loads (e.g. 16ohms) and the characteristic bass roll-off.  Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't find your results surprising with the exception of the improvements in SNR as the volume increases on the Cowon!  In any case, you've somewhat "helped" my arguement by demonstrating the a cheap amp such as the E7 (or E5) measures SO well that spending significantly more on an amp seems like an exercise in craziness.  I'm glad you're a graph-guy btw.
 
I couldn't find the appropriate specs for the D2, but certainly there must be some physical (electronic) reason why there is a roll-off with low imp phones.  Inadequate current perhaps?  It has ALWAYS been my observation that as long as there is adequate power, higher impedance headphones typically measure better in terms of SNR, THD, Freq Response, etc. 
 
I'm not saying that all amps are the same, simply that a $100 amp that measures perfectly in SNR, THD, FR (nearly) with adequate voltage and current, a reasonably low (ideally zero) output impedance, very high input impedance will sound transparent with most headphones.  A $1000 can't REALLY do anything better unless it aims to colour the sound.
 
Professional studios have fairly basic utilitarian amps that measure so well and provide so much power that any utterly expensive hi-fi audiophile amp would have to re-write the rules of physics to make it sound "better" without deliberately adding colouration.
 
Out of curiosity I even tried some (non-blind) ABX tests on my E5, HP4, and Emu -4-4 with my 250ohm DT880s and had a hard time really telling the difference, other than the fact that the E5 and Emu maxed out volume wize and the HP4 barely broke a sweat.  All 3 amps measure flat with low SNR, THD, crosstalk etc.   

 

[Katun]

There is some serious win in that last post Catharsis.
 
This thread is really quite interesting. I think I have learned more here than in most other threads.
 
Thanks again to those of "Higher Experience" that share your knowledge.

 

[Jack C]

 
 
Quote:

I think what you're saying, is that the E7 (I have the E5), makes up for shortcomings in the D2 player?  I've seen RMAA results before with load impedance loads (e.g. 16ohms) and the characteristic bass roll-off.  Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't find your results surprising with the exception of the improvements in SNR as the volume increases on the Cowon!  In any case, you've somewhat "helped" my arguement by demonstrating the a cheap amp such as the E7 (or E5) measures SO well that spending significantly more on an amp seems like an exercise in craziness.  I'm glad you're a graph-guy btw.

 
I am not a graph-guy, I believe there are merits to both looking at/understanding graphs in terms of what they tell and don't tell you, as well as sighted/blind listening. Graphs are a nice tool for Internet discussions because they show you certain things in very absolute terms. The roll off of the D2 with a low-impedance load is very absolute. Whether someone will hear it depends on a host of other factors that neither you or I have any control over. At best we can offer evidence and opinion, but it's reckless to make someone's decision for them.
 
I don't know what the issue is with the D2's output, but it is what it is, and there are other sources out there with output issues that can benefit from a headphone amplifier. 
 
 
 
Quote:

I'm not saying that all amps are the same, simply that a $100 amp that measures perfectly in SNR, THD, FR (nearly) with adequate voltage and current, a reasonably low (ideally zero) output impedance, very high input impedance will sound transparent with most headphones.  A $1000 can't REALLY do anything better unless it aims to colour the sound.

 
The thing is, an amp that measures (nearly) perfectly in SNR, THD, FR and offers adequate voltage and current as well as reasonably low output impedance and very high input impedance, in a nice consumerized form factor and good build quality along with warranty will likely cost more than $100. The E7 is just about the best deal there is in terms of a retail headphone amplifier product at $100 and even it can't offer all you mentioned above, because it doesn't have adequate voltage to drive inefficient or 600-Ohm headphones to very high volumes.
 
I do agree that beyond a certain price range, people are looking for more euphonic types of sound from their amps rather than accuracy. Which is a fine pursuit if you ask me, to each their own. 
 
 
Quote:

Professional studios have fairly basic utilitarian amps that measure so well and provide so much power that any utterly expensive hi-fi audiophile amp would have to re-write the rules of physics to make it sound "better" without deliberately adding colouration.

 
I know people often bring this up, but it doesn't quite show what you are hoping it shows. Most audio these days are recorded/processed/mixed in the digital domain. The analog amps/speakers/monitors that they use are not in the signal chain, they are for monitoring only. And you don't need a lot of expensive equipment to do proper monitoring. Monitoring isn't the same as critical listening. The only time when an amp/speaker becomes a part of a recording is if it is mic'd, in which case the amp/speaker is just another musical instrument, and are being used for their unique distortion characteristics. When amp's and speakers do become a part of a recording, professional studios and musicians spend a large amount of money on them.
 
Jack

 

[bisayaboi]

Well thanks to this discussion, I think I will be using the E7 to drive a DT880 250ohm and use EQ to fullfill anything else.
Why get an amp that colors the sound when you can color the sound yourself?
EQ gave my AD700 the bass/body it was lacking.
 
I also probably won't ever spend more than $200-250 on amp thanks to this discussion.
 

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

Believe it or not, I quite like the sound the E7 gives my K701, though I do have to practically max out the volume on both the E7 and whatever source I have as well as use Bass Boost 3 for the higher gain... I'm waiting on the E9...SERIOUSLY. I need it like air.
 

 

[Catharsis]

 
Quote:

 
 
 
I am not a graph-guy, I believe there are merits to both looking at/understanding graphs in terms of what they tell and don't tell you, as well as sighted/blind listening. Graphs are a nice tool for Internet discussions because they show you certain things in very absolute terms. The roll off of the D2 with a low-impedance load is very absolute. Whether someone will hear it depends on a host of other factors that neither you or I have any control over. At best we can offer evidence and opinion, but it's reckless to make someone's decision for them.
 
I don't know what the issue is with the D2's output, but it is what it is, and there are other sources out there with output issues that can benefit from a headphone amplifier. 
 
 
 
 
The thing is, an amp that measures (nearly) perfectly in SNR, THD, FR and offers adequate voltage and current as well as reasonably low output impedance and very high input impedance, in a nice consumerized form factor and good build quality along with warranty will likely cost more than $100. The E7 is just about the best deal there is in terms of a retail headphone amplifier product at $100 and even it can't offer all you mentioned above, because it doesn't have adequate voltage to drive inefficient or 600-Ohm headphones to very high volumes.
 
I do agree that beyond a certain price range, people are looking for more euphonic types of sound from their amps rather than accuracy. Which is a fine pursuit if you ask me, to each their own. 
 
 
 
I know people often bring this up, but it doesn't quite show what you are hoping it shows. Most audio these days are recorded/processed/mixed in the digital domain. The analog amps/speakers/monitors that they use are not in the signal chain, they are for monitoring only. And you don't need a lot of expensive equipment to do proper monitoring. Monitoring isn't the same as critical listening. The only time when an amp/speaker becomes a part of a recording is if it is mic'd, in which case the amp/speaker is just another musical instrument, and are being used for their unique distortion characteristics. When amp's and speakers do become a part of a recording, professional studios and musicians spend a large amount of money on them.
 
Jack

Well we have come to an agreement then, as I agree with everything you have posted above....with one exception. 
 
You're right in that an amp is only part of the recording when it's mic'd, that I can't refute.  But audio professionals DO strive for transparency in their mixing / monitoring process (not so much tracking), hence the reason many hi-end studios are filled with superb nearfields, acoustic treatments etc.  While many studio professionals don't typically mix on headphones (some do), the same devotion to audio transparency leads many a professional into the DT880/K701/HD600 domain, and the search for a flat and transparent amp is also on that list. 
 
Critical listening IS important to audio professionals and a great set of headphones is often key to finding all the clicks, pops and audio mess that are often missed w/ speakers.  In any case, I've seen enough pro amps that measure (and sound) fantastic; and by fantastic I mean they don't sound like anything.
 
A number of pro headphone amps are built in to some serious metal consoles and interfaces (e.g. Central Station), though a number of distribution amps are also available that are so robust that you can throw them off a cliff.  Granted, they are as ugly as hell and from that standpoint, I can see why you wouldn't ever want to see them next to an exotic Edition 8, or GS1000.
 
I think we can agree on more than initially thought Jack.

 

[Catharsis]

Quote:

Well thanks to this discussion, I think I will be using the E7 to drive a DT880 250ohm and use EQ to fullfill anything else.
Why get an amp that colors the sound when you can color the sound yourself?
EQ gave my AD700 the bass/body it was lacking.
 
I also probably won't ever spend more than $200-250 on amp thanks to this discussion.
 

 
I would take Mad Lust Envy's advice on that one.  While my E5 does drive the DT880 loud enough to border on "loud" it doesn't offer much overhead, though I've yet to hear any clipping or audible distortion.  Older recordings of mine (some Pink Floyd for example) are even quieter.  I do listen pretty loud and will probably go deaf by the age of 50, but you might want something with a bit more juice to get the volume you want.  The E7 might have more power but I've yet to look into it.
 
The Presonus HP4 on the other hand (not portable) is about $130 and can run 4 headphones simultaneously to volumes so loud that you would blow your eardrums or your headphones before you reached max volume.  Seriously, I like my HP4, but it's a tad overkill and if you have jittery hands, you'll never get the volume knob right.
 

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

I mean, it's a temporary thing, but I and a few others liked what the E5 did with the K701. Sure, it's blasphemous for most people here, but with it's bass boost, it actually gave it a fun sound, and nothing about it sounded distorted or 'underdriven'. The E7 was even better, though I do know that it can be driven better by amps made to drive such hard to drive phones. However, I honestly don't believe in spending hundreds more for a slight gain in performance (not saying the E5/E7 is right for the headphones...they aren't, but they do sound good with them anyway). I believe the E9 will be a good price/performance desktop amp that I can enjoy with my K701 or DT990/600. Is there better? Sure. Do I wanna spend hundreds more for slightly more audible improvement? Not really. I'm in the camp that believes people justify their ridiculously expensive amp purchases as 'much' better because they want to believe their money was well spent. If I had the spending money, I'd get a decent tried and proven rig myself, but I won't knock my future E9 just because an amp worth 4 times as much is better. In any case, I'm no audiophile, and my cans are mostly used with the Mixamp for gaming anyways... XD

 

[Catharsis]

Quote:

I mean, it's a temporary thing, but I and a few others liked what the E5 did with the K701. Sure, it's blasphemous for most people here, but with it's bass boost, it actually gave it a fun sound, and nothing about it sounded distorted or 'underdriven'. The E7 was even better, though I do know that it can be driven better by amps made to drive such hard to drive phones. However, I honestly don't believe in spending hundreds more for a slight gain in performance (not saying the E5/E7 is right for the headphones...they aren't, but they do sound good with them anyway). I believe the E9 will be a good price/performance desktop amp that I can enjoy with my K701 or DT990/600. Is there better? Sure. Do I wanna spend hundreds more for slightly more audible improvement? Not really. I'm in the camp that believes people justify their ridiculously expensive amp purchases as 'much' better because they want to believe their money was well spent. If I had the spending money, I'd get a decent tried and proven rig myself, but I won't knock my future E9 just because an amp worth 4 times as much is better. In any case, I'm no audiophile, and my cans are mostly used with the Mixamp for gaming anyways... XD

 

If you like your E5 with the K701 then I'm happy you saved a bundle.  In my experience, the DT880 250ohm was driven fine and sounded great. 
 
Ever since I sold my LD MKIII I've been living off cheap amps and couldn't be happier.  (Not that the LD MKIII is expensive, just more exotic, hot and heavy)

 

[wind016]

Hearing an K701 properly driven is enlightening. Feeling, rather than just hearing, the impact of guitar strings being struck on K701s is an astounding experience. I'm not one of those people that spend a lot of money to believe they received a benefit. I returned my old Woo Audio 6 after 2 days. In fact, I doubt most members of head-fi are deluded from price. Unfortunately, I just have not heard anything that could give me power and clean sound for cheap. This especially applies for the K701. Even the Canamp that supposedly powers the K701 well enough for a rather low price, has it's problems.
 
Quote:

I mean, it's a temporary thing, but I and a few others liked what the E5 did with the K701. Sure, it's blasphemous for most people here, but with it's bass boost, it actually gave it a fun sound, and nothing about it sounded distorted or 'underdriven'.

So there's an agreement that powerful amps are very beneficial. I have used professional mixers before in studios when I went to school in my University, but they were anything but small and cheap. I've used personal mixers and I highly doubt they could provide audible benefits like the Meier Concerto. I am also seeking a neutral solid state amplifier with plenty of power for less money, but from what I experienced, power cannot be bought cheap without sacrifices.
 
Quote:

If you like your E5 with the K701 then I'm happy you saved a bundle.  In my experience, the DT880 250ohm was driven fine and sounded great. 
Ever since I sold my LD MKIII I've been living off cheap amps and couldn't be happier.  (Not that the LD MKIII is expensive, just more exotic, hot and heavy)

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

My next step after getting the E9 and maybe the DT770/600 (next year) is upgrading to a more powerful amp if and when the L7 cable comes out for the E7 to pair it with a proven amp. Probably something like the Matrix M-Stage. I intend to keep the K701, DT990, and DT770 as my three main cans (no intention on going above their price range, and I really wanted just one reference, one fun, and one closed with a balanced performance). Helping them reach a new level will be fine by me, but I swear if it sounds only a little better than the E9, I won't hesitate to return whatever amp I do get. No way I'd spend any more than the price of the M-Stage however. regardless of how much better they can sound, there's a limit to my own stupidity in this hobby.  I'm speaking for myself as a non-audiophile.

 

[sugarkang]

This thread needs to be revived. 
The thing that audiophile grade amps do well is that they look good.
Something like the HP4 looks bad in a home setting.
I'm still struggling as to what to do. 
I'm thinking a splitter into double FiiO E5s.
That way the power button on each can function as a mute switch. 
I can set the appropriate gains on each, and control volume from the computer itself. 

 

[Katun]

Indeed.
 
I've had a bunch of comments I was planning on posting here in the past weeks, but I wasn't sure if I should revive it or not. Unfortunately, I have forgotten many of them, but I willing to jump back into the action as soon as this thread picks up again.
 
As for the title I created over 2 months ago, I would say I still stand by it -- the 2nd part that is...
 
Even after buying a nice entry level amp, MKIII, and pairing it with phones such as the DT880, DT990, HD650, and D2000, I am still convinced there isn't "THE" jaw-dropping improvement like everyone seems to glorify so well. But the interesting thing is, not only was the improvement not that big from the amp itself, but it wasn't that big from "upgrading" and "switching" headphones themselves as well.

 

[wind016]

Be assured, there is a huge improvement with a good amp. I wouldn't touch crap like Fiio or Hifiman. FWIE, cheap amplifiers don't do anything. If they did, it is negligible.