[Dionysus]

So, Eric does EA have a policy ”warranty” in place for possible issues with regards to this oxidation with owners of the Lionheart? I’m concerned because I just purchased one and I would hate for this to happen to my 500 dollar cable. Thx in advance.

 

[theveterans]

What's really strange here is that Lionheart is supposed to contain gold-plated copper. Clearly not 24K pure gold but even at, say 10K, your cable shouldn't have oxidized this quickly. It's not like wherever you were vacationing folks can't own less than 24K gold or else it tarnishes within days, so this is very peculiar.

Copper diffuses over gold over time without diffusion barrier. Thus, even if the appearance is gold, there is an interlaminar layer of copper within the gold layer that is ready to oxidize upon contact to the air, unlike palladium-nickel or palladium plating.

 

[theveterans]

So, Eric does EA have a policy ”warranty” in place for possible issues with regards to this oxidation with owners of the Lionheart? I’m concerned because I just purchased one and I would hate for this to happen to my 500 dollar cable. Thx in advance.

He's the first one that I've seen where his Lionheart oxidizes. I've had mine for 5 months and no issues at all except on the memory shrink where it turns pinkish, but the wires and the cable sleeve themselves are in pristine condition.

My Lionheart cables have been exposed next to coffee, colas, sanitizers, etc as well

 

[natemact]

Copper diffuses over gold over time without diffusion barrier. Thus, even if the appearance is gold, there is an interlaminar layer of copper within the gold layer that is ready to oxidize upon contact to the air, unlike palladium-nickel or palladium plating.

Oh OK diffusion barrier it is! There are many gold-plated copper cable connectors that don't oxidize. WBT-0110 Cu one of the more popular ones. So is it dependent on thickness of plating or must these have another metal sandwiched between copper/gold?

 

[theveterans]

So is it dependent on thickness of plating or must these have another metal sandwiched between copper/gold?

Yes, it is thickness dependent too. For example, many contacts used on satellites do not use a diffusion barrier such as nickel due to electromagnetism effects. However, their gold plating is at the minimum 2.54 microns and some mil-specs go for 5 microns or higher of gold layer, while a typical consumer grade gold plating is only a "gold flash" of 0.03 microns or less. Of course a medical grade pet jacket that resist oxidizing agents from the air will be the most cost effective solution.

 

[EffectAudio]

May I have a question. in someday, Will Effect Audio utilize the termination choice to be 2.5 balanced with 3.5 ground which appears in e.g. HS Venom and PW 1980s?

Unfortunately i don't foresee that coming our way in the near future. It's not a direction that we would want to explore at this moment.

Great support from Eric as usual.

@davidmolliere I feel your pain. I had a Beat Audio Thor Copper cable and it turned entirely green, despite never leaving my house and in sunny California without humidity or anything. I researched the heck out of this and the consensus was that it would not affect the sound quality, but I would be lying if I said it didn't bug the living crap out of me. Anyway, as @Deezel177 mentioned this shouldn't happen with litz wires, so I'm glad to see EA helping you out with this. Have a look at how bad mine is
Hopefully it is not sacrilege to post a non-EA cable here

-Collin-

Don't worry about it Sharing is caring huh?

Hey Collin, thanks for sharing and your support
I thought copper was less prone to oxidation than silver, too bad

I didn't notice that it affected sound quality indeed, more worried down the line that it would cause some kind of disruption in the flow of current and possibly affect the (pricy) CIEM I own so I stopped using it altogether.
I didn't research it though, but I would have thought oxidation does affect the integrity of the metal so... but I am just a layman here.

In fact we realised during our Gen 1 cables that Copper are more prone to oxidation than Silver. While we've confirmed that the SQ will not be affected and it will not damage the pairing IEM, it does have a certain distaste in aesthetics. Unfortunately there is no current solution to stop oxidation altogether.

Ouch, ya this is verdigris, typically consisting of copper carbonate but can also contain copper chlorides (by the ocean), sulfides and sulfates (pollution). Copper oxidation will start off as turning darker shades of brown, eventually going green. What's strange is in cables the whole oxidation phase - from brown to green - tends to happen exceedingly fast, seemingly skipping the browning all together as verdigris from copper oxidation typically takes years to form under average air conditions. Copper carbonate is not electrically conductive - unless melted - and this is compounded by the skin effect of cables. How audible is copper oxidation leading to copper carbonate deposits? Not sure, as I've never A/B'd nor have I knowingly used copper cables containing copper carbonate....although I can guarantee I unknowingly have. But if you can't hear it, clearly that's all that matters.

What's really strange here is that Lionheart is supposed to contain gold-plated copper. Clearly not 24K pure gold but even at, say 10K, your cable shouldn't have oxidized this quickly. It's not like wherever you were vacationing folks can't own less than 24K gold or else it tarnishes within days, so this is very peculiar.

If not going all the way to iem connectors, nor to Y-split, and considering it's on both channels (nicked both) air leakage is very suspect. With all this added up, skin contact makes the most sense. Acetic acid/salt from your skin will oxidize copper faster than wet and salty air, and this happened very fast indeed. But the insulation still needs to be broken down by something to allow seepage. Insect repellent, sunscreen, lotions, but especially LUBES could possibly break down PE over prolonged exposure, but this is a lot of guessing...and a little joking.

Unfortunately, I don't think you/they'll ever know exactly why this happened - depends if they want to CSI this or not - so I think the bigger question here is why gold-plated copper oxidized exactly like copper would? How much copper was in that gold-plating? Or....I don't even want to say it.

Very good explanation and it's exactly our thought process when SY and I discussed this case together this morning. Well, I'm definitely ready to CSI this. This is something I'm personally very curious about as this is the first case of Lionheart oxidising despite it's GPC configuration. I would definitely like to know under what types of specific conditions does the "Lionheart" oxidize at such a alarming speed. Like you said, it could be degradation to certain chemicals like insect repellent and etc. So, keep posted while we investigate this!

So, Eric does EA have a policy ”warranty” in place for possible issues with regards to this oxidation with owners of the Lionheart? I’m concerned because I just purchased one and I would hate for this to happen to my 500 dollar cable. Thx in advance.

Unfortunately, we do not have a standing warranty for "Oxidation" as it's a natural occurring phenomenon. Meanwhile though, under normal conditions or even rather extreme conditions like @Deezel177 puts his "Lionheart" through, it wouldn't oxidize.

He's the first one that I've seen where his Lionheart oxidizes. I've had mine for 5 months and no issues at all except on the memory shrink where it turns pinkish, but the wires and the cable sleeve themselves are in pristine condition.

My Lionheart cables have been exposed next to coffee, colas, sanitizers, etc as well

It's our first case as well, which makes it so much more interesting and we'll strive to get to the bottom of the matter

-Eric

 

[Bosk]

I noticed EA are selling a new style of more-expensive adapters on the website including PSquared adapters. Are these sonically improved or more durable? They're certainly prettier!

 

[Wyville]

So, Eric does EA have a policy ”warranty” in place for possible issues with regards to this oxidation with owners of the Lionheart? I’m concerned because I just purchased one and I would hate for this to happen to my 500 dollar cable. Thx in advance.

I wouldn't worry about it. I have had my Lionheart since the start of the year, it gets a lot of use and is not babied in any way and still looks as good as new. I think this was really an exceptional case and as you can see, Effect Audio's customer service is really good should anything untoward like this happen. Eric will bend over backwards to sort things out. (Not literally I hope. Although I am not sure how limber he is. )

I noticed EA are selling a new style of more-expensive adapters on the website including PSquared adapters. Are these sonically improved or more durable? They're certainly prettier!

I saw them too and it looks very interesting. @twister6 did a comparison between the Rhodium and PSquared connector in his Lionheart review (here) and based on that I expect it would make sense for anyone with a PSquared connector to also use the same for the adapter. I am thinking about picking up one for myself, as with my Phantom I have ended up using Lionheart from SE out a lot, but do not want to have it re-terminated.

 

[davidmolliere]

In fact we realised during our Gen 1 cables that Copper are more prone to oxidation than Silver. While we've confirmed that the SQ will not be affected and it will not damage the pairing IEM, it does have a certain distaste in aesthetics. Unfortunately there is no current solution to stop oxidation altogether. Very good explanation and it's exactly our thought process when SY and I discussed this case together this morning. Well, I'm definitely ready to CSI this. This is something I'm personally very curious about as this is the first case of Lionheart oxidising despite it's GPC configuration. I would definitely like to know under what types of specific conditions does the "Lionheart" oxidize at such a alarming speed. Like you said, it could be degradation to certain chemicals like insect repellent and etc. So, keep posted while we investigate this!
Unfortunately, we do not have a standing warranty for "Oxidation" as it's a natural occurring phenomenon. Meanwhile though, under normal conditions or even rather extreme conditions like @Deezel177 puts his "Lionheart" through, it wouldn't oxidize. It's our first case as well, which makes it so much more interesting and we'll strive to get to the bottom of the matter
-Eric

Thanks for the confirmation that it won't affect SQ or the IEM.
Didn't know I was the first and only case, lucky me

It's interesting that copper is more prone to oxidation... my Ares II was also with me on the trip, same transportation precaution, same use precaution. No excessive heat we never had more than 27°C there. You can discount chemicals, as I have not used anything against mosquitoes or whatever on myself. Never used it after swimming in the sea, always took a shower. Again, I have only used it in the bedroom at night during my stay before it went bad so unless residual soap after a shower could do this (which I doubt). Plus the Ares II would also have been affected and it's not. It's highly puzzling.

As discussed I'll ship it back to you for inspection, when I took the close up I zoomed in and didn't see anything on the sheathing but I am not a pro... I am sure very curious to get to the bottom of this!

 

[davidmolliere]

What's really strange here is that Lionheart is supposed to contain gold-plated copper. Clearly not 24K pure gold but even at, say 10K, your cable shouldn't have oxidized this quickly. It's not like wherever you were vacationing folks can't own less than 24K gold or else it tarnishes within days, so this is very peculiar.

If not going all the way to iem connectors, nor to Y-split, and considering it's on both channels (nicked both) air leakage is very suspect. With all this added up, skin contact makes the most sense. Acetic acid/salt from your skin will oxidize copper faster than wet and salty air, and this happened very fast indeed. But the insulation still needs to be broken down by something to allow seepage. Insect repellent, sunscreen, lotions, but especially LUBES could possibly break down PE over prolonged exposure, but this is a lot of guessing...and a little joking.

Unfortunately, I don't think you/they'll ever know exactly why this happened - depends if they want to CSI this or not - so I think the bigger question here is why gold-plated copper oxidized exactly like copper would? How much copper was in that gold-plating? Or....I don't even want to say it.

Great insight, thanks.
This being said : again, I had the Ares II on my VE8 and I split the listening sessions roughly half and half, in the same condition so something must be different as they were exposed to the same environment. I can't think of anything else than the sheathing being compromised, it wouldn't make sense but on both sides would be pretty unlucky...

 

[Dionysus]

I wouldn't worry about it. I have had my Lionheart since the start of the year, it gets a lot of use and is not babied in any way and still looks as good as new. I think this was really an exceptional case and as you can see, Effect Audio's customer service is really good should anything untoward like this happen. Eric will bend over backwards to sort things out. (Not literally I hope. Although I am not sure how limber he is. )

I saw them too and it looks very interesting. @twister6 did a comparison between the Rhodium and PSquared connector in his Lionheart review (here) and based on that I expect it would make sense for anyone with a PSquared connector to also use the same for the adapter. I am thinking about picking up one for myself, as with my Phantom I have ended up using Lionheart from SE out a lot, but do not want to have it re-terminated.

Thanks, I see Eric participates on these boards a lot, I always appreciate a voice from the trade.
I read that same review, part of the reason why I purchased the Lionheart. the PSquared connector on the Lionheart seems to make a significant difference positively on the cable performance.

 

[EffectAudio]

Thanks, I see Eric participates on these boards a lot, I always appreciate a voice from the trade.
I read that same review, part of the reason why I purchased the Lionheart. the PSquared connector on the Lionheart seems to make a significant difference positively on the cable performance.

Not as much as i would've like to as i did in the past. However rest assure that i've got your backs when it comes to after sales care

-Eric

PS - Im not authorised to release anything concrete at the moment but - Stay tuned for something. We'll be celebrating Singapore's National Day on the 9th of August

 

[Dionysus]

Received my Lionheart today, liking what I’m hearing so far. I’ll post further impressions with my A18 once I break them in. The package is very impressive. Cable is light, beautiful in apprerence.
Most of the Psquare photos have been green rings, mine are black any input.

 

[Bosk]

Congratulations Dionysus, the Lionheart is surely one of the most beautiful cables out there.

 

[Alson Chua]

Guys, need your help.. any recommendations cable for HD800S?