[jelt2359]

  Yeah, I was thinking about getting the A12's, but the way that the project was ran really threw me off a bit. They didn't really answer anyone's questions, and seemed like they were almost dodging questions that people were asking. With the way it was going, and at $1200 USD, it's quite a bit of money that I just didn't quite trust them with.
 
The way the 1964's project was run was similar to what I saw in the Aurisonics project, where the project has a promising end product, but you don't know what's going on, and things could change without you knowing. In the end, I would just sum it up in one word, frustrating having a deadline, then having it slowly drift away without having any clue what is going on. The amount of times that we thought we were almost there, only to have to wait another month without response was just terrible.
 
On the other hand, Jack has been absolutely phenomenal in responding back and forth when I messaged him relatively close to the end of the project, and I feel quite comfortable handing him my hard earned money for a set of customs because of they way he handled the project, and the feedback I was getting from the community here at Head-Fi. There is just the feeling that he is going to do everything he can to make things work, and that if anything still happens, we'll all know about it he'll let us know exactly what he'll be doing to solve the problems.

Jack has been great. With 1964, Vitaliy also responds very fast, but you must contact him directly. The problem was that the kickstarter was being run by his partner, Stephen- less used to answering the crazy detailed questions of us audiophiles
 
Anyway, the real challenge is maintaining these standards as a company scales. I was a rather early buyer of the JH13 back then, and their response was pretty swell. Things have changed a bit since then.

 

[Tobias89]

  Yeah, I was thinking about getting the A12's, but the way that the project was ran really threw me off a bit. They didn't really answer anyone's questions, and seemed like they were almost dodging questions that people were asking. With the way it was going, and at $1200 USD, it's quite a bit of money that I just didn't quite trust them with.
 
The way the 1964's project was run was similar to what I saw in the Aurisonics project, where the project has a promising end product, but you don't know what's going on, and things could change without you knowing. In the end, I would just sum it up in one word, frustrating having a deadline, then having it slowly drift away without having any clue what is going on. The amount of times that we thought we were almost there, only to have to wait another month without response was just terrible.
 
On the other hand, Jack has been absolutely phenomenal in responding back and forth when I messaged him relatively close to the end of the project, and I feel quite comfortable handing him my hard earned money for a set of customs because of they way he handled the project, and the feedback I was getting from the community here at Head-Fi. There is just the feeling that he is going to do everything he can to make things work, and that if anything still happens, we'll all know about it he'll let us know exactly what he'll be doing to solve the problems.

Couldn't agree more. They didn't provide any reviews and kept dodging certain questions, so much so I didn't back them at that point in time. And by the time joker's early impression came out, I couldn't back them in time. I'm not saying that 1964 has poor service (They DID respond to some of my inquiries, and I've heard that they're better than some/many CIEM companies), but the project really wasn't well run especially when compared to Earwerkz project.
 
While I may not have tried any of Earwerkz offerings, I couldn't agree more that Jack has been phenomenal. Rarely does a company respond promptly to queries with such regularity (I'm guilty of asking a little too much, but Jack has been absolutely accommodating). Service + great product (based on reviews) means Earwerkz has got a new fan!
 
Still a fan of 1964, but for now I guess my money might end up in the Legend R! 1964 has to look over their shoulders soon! Good to see so companies improving themselves
 
*ps post has been edited to remove certain phrases!

 

[Dinerenblanc]

  Couldn't agree more. They didn't provide any reviews and kept dodging certain questions, so much so I didn't back them. By the time joker's early impression came out, I couldn't back them in time. I'm not saying that 1964 has poor service (They DID respond to some of my inquiries afterall, and I've heard that they're better than some/many CIEM companies), but the project really wasn't well run especially when compared to Earwerkz project, to which they fell short by a good distance.
 
While I may not have tried any of Earwerkz offerings, I couldn't agree more that Jack has been phenomenal. Rarely does a company respond promptly to queries with such regularity (I'm guilty of asking a little too much, but Jack has been absolutely accommodating). Service + great product (based on reviews) means Earwerkz has got a new fan!
 
Guess my money might end up in the Legend R!

They didn't provide any reviews because it was a work in progress. I'm not saying that anyone was wrong or right to support ADEL, but it's a very different Kickstarter. You really are funding what's essentially an idea with the ADEL, while Earwerkz is a proven concept. 

 

[Ivabign]

  Couldn't agree more. They didn't provide any reviews and kept dodging certain questions, so much so I didn't back them. By the time joker's early impression came out, I couldn't back them in time. I'm not saying that 1964 has poor service (They DID respond to some of my inquiries afterall, and I've heard that they're better than some/many CIEM companies), but the project really wasn't well run especially when compared to Earwerkz project, to which they fell short by a good distance.
 
While I may not have tried any of Earwerkz offerings, I couldn't agree more that Jack has been phenomenal. Rarely does a company respond promptly to queries with such regularity (I'm guilty of asking a little too much, but Jack has been absolutely accommodating). Service + great product (based on reviews) means Earwerkz has got a new fan!
 
Guess my money might end up in the Legend R!

I'm confused - which one fell short? The project with the $24K goal that got $40K - Or the one with the $200K goal that got $600K. The one with  133 backers or the one with almost 1400? The new company getting into this business - or the company that has been in the business for years, who had a black friday sale that coincided with the end of their Kickstarter campaign so their staff had a few more balls in the air. I don't know much about logistics, but to expect the owner of the larger concern to answer 5-10 questions (every couple of days?) from each new prospective backer, who is then feeling that they are falling short by not answering all his questions (when he admits that he may be guilty of asking too many questions) on his preferred time schedule is a bit much - I'm being kind.
 
As for reviews - Each unit had a graph that gave info on the particular sound signature - one that could be compared to other units - Is this poorly run? The U-Series IEMs each had a corresponding V-Series IEM, each of which has numerous reviews available for perusing. There were at least 10 items on one company's Kickstarter - and I'm not talking about color combinations.
 
Sometimes I wonder about this place - my 1964 experiences have been great - including a refit -  but then, I'm a parent and am used to being patient.

 

[Blrag]

Yeah but still, whenever I went over to the project to look at the comments, they were always skirting around peoples questions. All their answers were really vauge, which made it really seem like it could be vapourware, or something that wasn't quite what they originally marketed it as.
 
They had an idea, and they wanted money but wasn't willing to explain to everyone what their idea actually was and what really set them apart. I think that was the difference when I visited their page.

 

[Tobias89]

 

  They didn't provide any reviews because it was a work in progress. I'm not saying that anyone was wrong or right to support ADEL, but it's a very different Kickstarter. You really are funding what's essentially an idea with the ADEL, while Earwerkz is a proven concept. 

 

  I'm confused - which one fell short? The project with the $24K goal that got $40K - Or the one with the $200K goal that got $600K. The one with  133 backers or the one with almost 1400? The new company getting into this business - or the company that has been in the business for years, who had a black friday sale that coincided with the end of their Kickstarter campaign so their staff had a few more balls in the air. I don't know much about logistics, but to expect the owner of the larger concern to answer 5-10 questions (every couple of days?) from each new prospective backer, who is then feeling that they are falling short by not answering all his questions (when he admits that he may be guilty of asking too many questions) on his preferred time schedule is a bit much - I'm being kind.
 
As for reviews - Each unit had a graph that gave info on the particular sound signature - one that could be compared to other units - Is this poorly run? The U-Series IEMs each had a corresponding V-Series IEM, each of which has numerous reviews available for perusing. There were at least 10 items on one company's Kickstarter - and I'm not talking about color combinations.
 
Sometimes I wonder about this place - my 1964 experiences have been great - including a refit -  but then, I'm a parent and am used to being patient.

 
True, I can't deny that. ADEL is a concept, an idea. But I feel they could have at least prepared something for someone to review. Afterall, a number of us were waiting for a review before the number of backers grew. When a review came out, I couldn't get it in time. Guess my disappointment came from there though!
 
I agree about the graph thing. It was simple and easy to understand, but the A12 had no direct comparison unlike the U8 vs V8 or U6 vs V6S. Thus my (and some others) apprehension. I never said 1964 had poor service, afterall, I did receive response, it just wasn't as prompt as Jack's response. When saying they fell short, I was just comparing about the response and of course, project details, without looking at company size and number of backers though. Also, when I said I asked too many questions, I was referring to Jack, not 1964.
 
1964 IS a good company, and considering their competition, they are great. I just felt Earwerkz (Jack) did ever so slightly better, thats all. I will be supporting both companies regardless.
 
Again, apologies to those offended in my previous post. I didn't mean no harm to 1964 nor their reputation. My disappointment got the better of me, so the way I wrote wasn't exactly what I meant. If I didn't like 1964, I wouldn't be still attempting to get the A12. 

 

[jelt2359]

Now that the dust has cleared, I agree there are a few differences:

1) 1964 is an established company. There are many defenders of the company, most of which have bought from them before. That's a good thing- and they had less to prove.
2) Stephen was the one responding, not 1964, on kickstarter. He was probably responding to a very different group. Not audiophiles.
3) EarWerkz was relaunching a product that's available even now from their website. 1964 was launching a totally new product. In a sense the latter is more the essence of kickstarter. Luckily for them their review unit made it to joker, whom they seem to have a personal relationship with.

 

[Dinerenblanc]

Now that the dust has cleared, I agree there are a few differences:

1) 1964 is an established company. There are many defenders of the company, most of which have bought from them before. That's a good thing- and they had less to prove.
2) Stephen was the one responding, not 1964, on kickstarter. He was probably responding to a very different group. Not audiophiles.
3) EarWerkz was relaunching a product that's available even now from their website. 1964 was launching a totally new product. In a sense the latter is more the essence of kickstarter. Luckily for them their review unit made it to joker, whom they seem to have a personal relationship with.

Oh la la. Personal relationship with joker. 

 

[Tobias89]

Now that the dust has cleared, I agree there are a few differences:

1) 1964 is an established company. There are many defenders of the company, most of which have bought from them before. That's a good thing- and they had less to prove.
2) Stephen was the one responding, not 1964, on kickstarter. He was probably responding to a very different group. Not audiophiles.
3) EarWerkz was relaunching a product that's available even now from their website. 1964 was launching a totally new product. In a sense the latter is more the essence of kickstarter. Luckily for them their review unit made it to joker, whom they seem to have a personal relationship with.

I fully agree with Parts 1 and 2, and that the ADEL is more befitting of a kickstart that Earwerkz's project is. I won't comment the last part of 3 coz I have no idea about that.
 
From what I've read, there are quite afewn companies which DON'T or take ages to reply. So lets give credit to these two who at the very least, tries to engage their customers. They might not be perfect, and one might be or might not be better, but at least they try.
 
Cheers

 

[Levanter]

It is quite different, ADEL is a new tech unknown to many. There are many questions both technical/scientific and also the sound wise. Where else Supra has nothing new except for upgraded wires/cables and their tuning which are all sound related wise.
For sure there are bound to be more questions for 1964 compared to Supra, and considering the vast difference in the number of backers, the Supra is more manageable. The 1964 Kickstarter has questions all over the place which most have already been answered before but are merely repeats from new backers.
Though I agree they didn't handle the campaign well, their webcast was a good response to what everyone wanted to know.

 

[kenz]

At the end of the day, Earwerkz presented a project,
1. that's clearly identifiable to its targeted audience.
2. set very realistic targets/goals and the results backers can relate
3. gave very realistic stretch goals and the sweeteners were something backers can relate to or have experience with (hence knowing the value in it)
4. peppered plenty of small impressions and comments about the product (giving real world experience for immediate buying decision making)
5. that "One More Thing" approach (taken a leaf from Steve Jobs of Apple, God rest his soul), and gave the amazing Final Stretch Goal of custom cable + Custom built options.
6. No last minute add-on stretches to pull in more numbers (again, setting clear and realistic goals here)
7. amazing rapport and communication between the backers and Jack.
 
And clearly, the efforts of Jack and his team, has paid off with a very handsome margin to close the project funding.
The target $26K, the final pledge, $40K. That's over 50% more than final pledge target, or a whopping 525% of original target of 8K.
Instead of the dollars, i'd see the percentages and they are far more impressive than the results by the other project.
 
Very promising and talented company and team. We can look forward to even better things to come.

 

[Stereodude]

Okay, I'll be the bad guy and say it.  To me the two are not really comparable.
 
The 1964Ears / ADEL Kickstarter never provided any actual backup of their claims of how the ADEL module improved or altered the sound.  Even in the review A12 that was sent to ljokerl it wasn't functional enough for him to characterize how it changed the sound as it was adjusted.  Did it widen the soundstage?  We don't know.  Did the bass roll off as it was opened?  We don't know.  Did they start to leak as the ADEL "vent" was opened?  We don't know.  Could you widen the soundstage by opening it up without losing bass or compromising the isolation?  We don't know.  Ultimately there was no way to really know what you were going to get.  Even after the A12 review by ljokerl we can only say he liked the sound of them.  The ADEL tech and how it really changes things is still very much unknown.
 
In contrast the Supra is much more of a known quantity.  Sure, most the backers don't know exactly what they're going to sound like, but we have a reasonable idea.  Multiple people heard the final product.  There no new unknown tech that is supposed to alter the sound that could have undesired side effects.

 

[jelt2359]

  Okay, I'll be the bad guy and say it.  To me the two are not really comparable.
 
The 1964Ears / ADEL Kickstarter never provided any actual backup of their claims of how the ADEL module improved or altered the sound.  Even in the review A12 that was sent to ljokerl it wasn't functional enough for him to characterize how it changed the sound as it was adjusted.  Did it widen the soundstage?  We don't know.  Did the bass roll off as it was opened?  We don't know.  Did they start to leak as the ADEL "vent" was opened?  We don't know.  Could you widen the soundstage by opening it up without losing bass or compromising the isolation?  We don't know.  Ultimately there was no way to really know what you were going to get.  Even after the A12 review by ljokerl we can only say he liked the sound of them.  The ADEL tech and how it really changes things is still very much unknown.
 
In contrast the Supra is much more of a known quantity.  Sure, most the backers don't know exactly what they're going to sound like, but we have a reasonable idea.  Multiple people heard the final product.  There no new unknown tech that is supposed to alter the sound that could have undesired side effects.

I agree there are still many interesting questions about ADEL, but in my personal opinion, and I suspect in the opinion of many as well (hence the surge at the end), |joker| credibly answered the most important question: 'how does the A12 sound with adel port open'? 

 

[Ivabign]

  Okay, I'll be the bad guy and say it.  To me the two are not really comparable.
 
The 1964Ears / ADEL Kickstarter never provided any actual backup of their claims of how the ADEL module improved or altered the sound.  Even in the review A12 that was sent to ljokerl it wasn't functional enough for him to characterize how it changed the sound as it was adjusted.  Did it widen the soundstage?  We don't know.  Did the bass roll off as it was opened?  We don't know.  Did they start to leak as the ADEL "vent" was opened?  We don't know.  Could you widen the soundstage by opening it up without losing bass or compromising the isolation?  We don't know.  Ultimately there was no way to really know what you were going to get.  Even after the A12 review by ljokerl we can only say he liked the sound of them.  The ADEL tech and how it really changes things is still very much unknown.
 
In contrast the Supra is much more of a known quantity.  Sure, most the backers don't know exactly what they're going to sound like, but we have a reasonable idea.  Multiple people heard the final product.  There no new unknown tech that is supposed to alter the sound that could have undesired side effects.

Let me preface this by stating that I have purchased 3 IEMs/CIEMs from 1964 Ears - at full pop ($) - I have not received a discount that any other yahoo on these boards couldn't have got simply by watching the website and keeping track of holidays.
 
Yes, the Supra was more of a known quantity - it was a 2BA universal, full stop. The ADEL project was a larger program. Kickstarter is a place where ideas are grown and backed with a little "benefit of the doubt" thrown in for added measure - The amount of information presented wasn't substantial enough for some (but there was a great deal of it - more than many Kickstarter/Indigogo projects) But some questions couldn't be answered completely (IMHO) as much of this is still in prototype stage. People wanted to know if they would be heard in the subway with their ADEL headphones - to those people, I suggest you wait until the product is out and everything is etched in stone. But we all want a deal - to those, I suggest not buying the most expensive item on the list. $1200 is a lot of money - but not to everyone. If that was your IEM budget for 2015 - this wasn't the place to buy. What the emphasis was from the beginning was that you would be able to play your music louder with less volume - not "can you increase the soundstage by twisting the knob a quarter turn." With Kickstarter there should be an element of risk, but apparently hundreds wanted to have that risk mitigated for them and felt shunned when thousands of (IMO) these redundant questions were asked over and over and the risk couldn't be answered away. There really isn't any risk with a universal version of a custom already in production - companies do it all the time - nor is it difficult to find out what they sound like - they are on the market. There is no leap of faith - there is no new idea - there isn't really any breaking of new ground. It is comfy cozy. - They really don't need Kickstarter for it - other than for the publicity. But dropping over a grand on a new technology in the prototype stage has all those things. Yes, you can try to eliminate all the risk - don't back the technology. That's the kicker (pun intended) We are backing a new technology and trusting the folks to do it right. The Supra universal doesn't need backers - it needs buyers - and thats fine - but it isn't really what Kickstarter is for. 

 

[Blrag]

 
Let me preface this by stating that I have purchased 3 IEMs/CIEMs from 1964 Ears - at full pop ($) - I have not received a discount that any other yahoo on these boards couldn't have got simply by watching the website and keeping track of holidays.
 
Yes, the Supra was more of a known quantity - it was a 2BA universal, full stop. The ADEL project was a larger program. Kickstarter is a place where ideas are grown and backed with a little "benefit of the doubt" thrown in for added measure - The amount of information presented wasn't substantial enough for some (but there was a great deal of it - more than many Kickstarter/Indigogo projects) But some questions couldn't be answered completely (IMHO) as much of this is still in prototype stage. People wanted to know if they would be heard in the subway with their ADEL headphones - to those people, I suggest you wait until the product is out and everything is etched in stone. But we all want a deal - to those, I suggest not buying the most expensive item on the list. $1200 is a lot of money - but not to everyone. If that was your IEM budget for 2015 - this wasn't the place to buy. What the emphasis was from the beginning was that you would be able to play your music louder with less volume - not "can you increase the soundstage by twisting the knob a quarter turn." With Kickstarter there should be an element of risk, but apparently hundreds wanted to have that risk mitigated for them and felt shunned when thousands of (IMO) these redundant questions were asked over and over and the risk couldn't be answered away. There really isn't any risk with a universal version of a custom already in production - companies do it all the time - nor is it difficult to find out what they sound like - they are on the market. There is no leap of faith - there is no new idea - there isn't really any breaking of new ground. It is comfy cozy. - They really don't need Kickstarter for it - other than for the publicity. But dropping over a grand on a new technology in the prototype stage has all those things. Yes, you can try to eliminate all the risk - don't back the technology. That's the kicker (pun intended) We are backing a new technology and trusting the folks to do it right. The Supra universal doesn't need backers - it needs buyers - and thats fine - but it isn't really what Kickstarter is for. 

 
Yeah, I don't know how much of a crowd-source funder you are, but while kickstarter is a platform where a little "benefit of the doubt" is required, it's not a place build an idea. It's more so a place where you have an idea and plan already, with the main goal of raising money to make the idea a reality. The backers are investors in a project, and they should treat them as such. You wouldn't walk into a product pitch without expecting plenty of questions about your project, especially about the defining feature of your product, so why would you do the same in a Kickstarter project? You say that they give more information than most Kickstarter/Indigogo projects, but they are backed by a solid company, with plenty of experience as you have mentioned with your exchanges with 1964 before. If so, they should not be compared to projects that are run by your everyday guy who has an idea and hasn't run a business by themselves before and I can say they they were a lot more disorganized than most successful projects. Someone mentioned about that a partner was running the project on Kickstarter, where the person who actually knew how to answer questions and was answering them was on head-fi.
 
Bottom line, the ADEL project wasn't ready to do a Kickstarter project when they did. They should have just waited a month or two to actually get all their information in order before running the project. It shouldn't be that hard to know what kind of questions would be coming in (especially the ones that were asked over and over again), and put them in the FAQ at the bottom of the project like most projects do. You don't have to eliminate all of the risk, but you have to find a way to explain how you are mitigating the risk, or have checks and balances in place (like reviews) to give confidence in the project.
 
Also, I completely disagree that the Supra universals didn't need backs, and that they need buyers. The project wasn't run because it was something completely new and revolutionary, but it was used for a smaller company to see if there was an interest in a mid tier universal IEM that was chosen based on response on the community. Earwerks isn't a large company that could afford to just continue to add different models to their line, and Kickstarter is the perfect platform. Kickstarter doesn't always have to be a massive leap of faith, It allows people with ideas and/or designs without enough cash flow to test the market for interest and actually get a first batch going based on people willing to commit to the idea/design. Sure they can use the platform to tweak their ideas/designs based on the feedback that they can get over the project life, and sure they could always use more exposure for the future, but in the end Kickstart is a platform to collect money to make something a reality.
 
Oh and I bet you 90% of the projects you see isn't some sort of revolutionary product that requires a leap of faith, they just have a reasonable or querky idea that they need some money to make a first/single run of. No leap's of faith required other than to trust that the project developer won't run away with your money, or plan poorly and miss deadlines/require more money.