[chinesekiwi]

james444, great review as always! Great to see it featured
 
Can you try the following EQ for the EQ-7 and see how they compare?
 
This is using Rockbox's graphical EQ and I think you got a rockbox'ed Fuze so:
 
80Hz: +0.5dB (0.7 Q)
3200Hz: -2.5dB (3.2Q)
4000Hz: 0.0 dB
10000Hz: -4.0dB (3.2Q)
10950Hz: +7.0dB (0.7Q)
 
Fantastic EQ setting that is. I've tweaked with it ALOT and I've found this setting to be the most detailed across the spectrum and improves the eq-7 quite a bit.

 

[james444]

@a_recording & goodvibes: Very interesting discussion about BA vs. MA. Not being an engineer myself, I've learned a lot from it. And btw thanks for keeping it civil. Not much to add to what's been said, except that Ortofon themselves don't shy away from calling their driver balanced armature:
 

 
Seems to me that MA might not be a universally established term yet. Of course that doesn't mean anything for the Final Audios, but suffice to say that whatever driver design they use must have the ability to move a lot more air than traditional BAs and sound eerily close to the e-Q7. I'll leave it at that for now - and no, I'm not going to crack open any of these beauties.

 
Two other thoughts about these phones came to mind, concerning sibilance and transparency. First of all, the SB and SS have hotter treble than the A1 and e-Q7, which I rather like because it makes them sound livelier. But they are also more prone to sibilance. Yet IME sibilance is greatly dependend on seal (or lack thereof) and the stock tips are too thin to provide a firm seal. So anybody wanting to try out these IEMs in a store or so should take some spare tips along.
 
The second observation is about transparency. All these four IEMs provide a similar stunning level of clarity and are extremely transparent in terms of their sound signature. Yet the SB (brass) and SS (steel) model are significantly heavier than the A1 and e-Q7, and interestingly enough this affects transparency in a negative way. Transparency is all about the phones opening a window to the music and removing themselves from the equation, and the sheer weight of brass and steel means you won't forget about them being in your ears. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean they're uncomfortable, they are in fact easier to wear than the Ortofons, it's just the sensation of their weight that constantly reminds you that they're there.

 

[rawrster]

All this recent discussion about MA based earphones make me want one again

 
I do have a question about the SB James. Am I correct in assuming that there is no chin slider since it is a flat cable. Also does it do over the ear well since I haven't really seen a flat cable that does it even close to a typical cable. These really do seem interesting but I wonder about the flat cable.
 
Lastly I didn't notice your disclaimer until now but you are right

Although I think you do a very good job in trying to stay impartial. I try to do no such thing in any of my reviews..probably

 

[a_recording]

Quote:

@a_recording & goodvibes: Very interesting discussion about BA vs. MA. Not being an engineer myself, I've learned a lot from it. And btw thanks for keeping it civil. Not much to add to what's been said, except that Ortofon themselves don't shy away from calling their driver balanced armature:
 

 
Seems to me that MA might not be a universally established term yet. Of course that doesn't mean anything for the Final Audios, but suffice to say that whatever driver design they use must have the ability to move a lot more air than traditional BAs and sound eerily close to the e-Q7. I'll leave it at that for now - and no, I'm not going to crack open any of these beauties.

 
Two other thoughts about these phones came to mind, concerning sibilance and transparency. First of all, the SB and SS have hotter treble than the A1 and e-Q7, which I rather like because it makes them sound livelier. But they are also more prone to sibilance. Yet IME sibilance is greatly dependend on seal (or lack thereof) and the stock tips are too thin to provide a firm seal. So anybody wanting to try out these IEMs in a store or so should take some spare tips along.
 
..

Do you know what amuses me greatly about that graph in that image? If you looked at the actual shape of the two curves in the diagram (rather than looking at how the Ortofon appears more sensitive because its producing more decibels at same input levels) the graph is a very fancy way of showing off how the E-Q7's treble rolls off. XD
 
I agree with your comments about the hot treble and weight on the SB, and why after listening I ended up choosing the A1 in the end (or at least, didn't feel bad about not spending the additional 100/150 I couldnt afford.) A lively presentation is nice, but really it to be my go to IEM and sibilance/hot treble really, really bugs me. 
 
I'm wondering James, which tips did you actually use? I might have missed it in your review. Now I'm using Sony hybrids on my A1's, which are nice and comfy but treble is just a little recessed. And if you didn't already have the E-Q7, or any of these models, would you choose the E-Q7 or the A1?

 

[james444]

Quote:

I do have a question about the SB James. Am I correct in assuming that there is no chin slider since it is a flat cable. Also does it do over the ear well since I haven't really seen a flat cable that does it even close to a typical cable. These really do seem interesting but I wonder about the flat cable.

Correct, there is no chin slider though it wouldn't be hard to add one. The cable is flat but only 3mm wide, which I think is far less than e.g. that on the Monster Beats. The crux with over-ear is more a bit of stiffness than the form-factor. In general it's no big problem as long as I wear the cable all the way down to my jeans-pocket, because its weight helps to keep it in place. But it's virtually impossible to carry your DAP in a breast pocket and keep the short part of the cable over-ears, and I also don't think it would stay in place while running. Adding a chin slider would possibly alleviate this problem though.

 

[james444]

Quote:

I'm wondering James, which tips did you actually use? I might have missed it in your review. Now I'm using Sony hybrids on my A1's, which are nice and comfy but treble is just a little recessed. And if you didn't already have the E-Q7, or any of these models, would you choose the E-Q7 or the A1?

I must admit I left that part about the tips out, because I was concentrating on the particularities of MAs. Moreover, tips and fit are always a highly personal affair. As for me, I keep alternating between piggy-backing the stock tips onto a second pair of silicons (to add stability and isolation) and the Sony Hybrids. Still haven't settled on a final solution yet, though I really like how you can tune the Hybrids to your liking, as described in this post from the other thread:
Quote:

I love the Sony Hybrids. First of all they come in four sizes instead of the usual three, so it's easier to find your perfect fit. Second, their outer rubber surface gives just enough friction to be worn with only a slight pressure against the inside of my ear canals and still achieve a great seal.
 
But the icing on the cake are their stems: they're long and highly elastic, so you can easily stretch them over wider nozzles. Of course, at full length, the Hybrids openings will be much narrower than the nozzle's and therefore they may tame sibilance, but also get a little congested and possibly overly bassy. Now, what I do is cut down their stem by say 1mm for starters. Then listen for a change in sound. Then cut down by one more mm, listen again, and so on. The shorter their stem, the less bassy and congested they'll become while still retaining a good amount of their treble taming virtues. If necessary you can cut their stem all the way down until their opening sits almost flush with the nozzle's and IME they'll still sound less sibilant than most other silicons I've tried.
 
Admittedly this method is kinda distructive for the Hybrids, but on the plus side you can virtually tune an IEMs sound signature (within certain limits) without modifying the phone itself.

 
Concerning the e-Q7 vs. the A1, as far as sound signature and fit are concerned I'd probably go for the A1. But the onset of winter here in Austria with the first freezing days left me really really worried about the A1's cables. I mean they stiffened to the point of being almost unusable, unless I wore them under my jacket. At the moment that's the biggest drawback with the A1, at least in my book.
 
Let's just say, if I lived in Florida or Hawaii I'd happily go for the A1.

 

[a_recording]

^ Ooh I've never considered that way for tuning the hybrids. I always assumed that because they have that lip near the bottom of the stem, cutting them down would make them unusable as they would no longer 'catch' on the nozzle.
 
And I sure am glad in this case that we don't have that freezing situation heh, quite the opposite. I've never actually noticed this problem with cables before - I've never even noticed them changing!

 

[DaEMoNteNTAcLe]

 
im not sure how bass is considered not far on eq7 vs fibass.. i think it's totally different
for me eq7 doesnt have body on the bass.. literally empty gush of air, sound without substance.
and fibass have the body and weight of an excellent (radius ddm like) dynamic driver bass, the kind that shakes the iem housing itself.. which eq7 cannot manage even quarter of it.
ck10 only manages half of that with aggressive eq, at the sub-bass level, but already on slightly distorted..

 

[james444]

Quote:

^ Ooh I've never considered that way for tuning the hybrids. I always assumed that because they have that lip near the bottom of the stem, cutting them down would make them unusable as they would no longer 'catch' on the nozzle.

Just give it a try. I admit it's a time consuming task, but IME it pays. I spent the better part of a whole day eating through a set of Hybrids for the Radius DDM. When I was finished it turned out the best balanced sound was with Hybrids 2 sizes smaller than my usual size (= very loose seal) and stems cut way down until the tips sat almost flush with the nozzle. But as a result they sound almost on par with the FX700 now.

 

[james444]

Quote:

 
im not sure how bass is considered not far on eq7 vs fibass.. i think it's totally different
for me eq7 doesnt have body on the bass.. literally empty gush of air, sound without substance.
and fibass have the body and weight of an excellent (radius ddm like) dynamic driver bass, the kind that shakes the iem housing itself.. which eq7 cannot manage even quarter of it.
ck10 only manages half of that with aggressive eq, at the sub-bass level, but already on slightly distorted..

In that case I suspect there must be something wrong with your e-Q7.

 

[goodvibes]

 

 
The second observation is about transparency. All these four IEMs provide a similar stunning level of clarity and are extremely transparent in terms of their sound signature. Yet the SB (brass) and SS (steel) model are significantly heavier than the A1 and e-Q7, and interestingly enough this affects transparency in a negative way. Transparency is all about the phones opening a window to the music and removing themselves from the equation, and the sheer weight of brass and steel means you won't forget about them being in your ears. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean they're uncomfortable, they are in fact easier to wear than the Ortofons, it's just the sensation of their weight that constantly reminds you that they're there.

I wonder how much is material and how much is the difference in venting/volume as it's effectively different among the 3 due to case and cable size vent blocking. I suppose the cables themselves have an effect. It's odd how much bass character and quantity can effect the perceived treble in an IEM. They may or may not all have the same drivers as the specs are identical between the Finals. Regardless, it's great info. Thanks again. I also liked the photo analogies.

 
  I'm now waiting for GR10s so my posts have nothing to do with bias against MA drivers or for BAs. I'm hoping the second generation Grado gets all it's ducks in a row. I know that the emphasis in the upper mids/ lower treble of the Orto would have been an issue for me. I'd have considered the GR8 but with the GR10 now available, well it will be an interesting compare to the DBAs when they both arrive. I get an impression from comments here that the Finals are a bit on the warmer/fuller side of neutral.
 
I also was trimming my hybrids for a pair of M1s a couple weeks back but decided the stocks were still better. It's a great trick for a super comfortable tip.

 

[mvw2]

Quote:

In that case I suspect there must be something wrong with your e-Q7.

Well, not necessarily.  I mean he's comparing bass of the DDM to the e-Q7.  I think it might have more to do with expectations than being broken.  There is the idea of how much should be there and overall balance of sound.  I too may call the e-Q7 slightly lean, but only slightly.  However, I may call something like the DDM or many other bass strong earphones, overwhelming.  Some earphones have a very thick presence, unnaturally so.  To come from one of these to the e-Q7, the e-Q7 would perceptibly have very little.  To say it is incorrect would be a stretch though.  There may simply be the expectation of retaining what he already had in excess.  Could the bass on the e-Q7 be fuller?  Well, sure, why not.  It could be.  Should it be?  Meh...  That's a matter of preference.
 
Could something be damanged?  Maybe.

 

[DaEMoNteNTAcLe]

Quote:

In that case I suspect there must be something wrong with your e-Q7.

i dont have eq7. i have ddm and ck10. i auditioned it once when i had my eterna, a lot of times b4 getting my ck10, and about 3-4 times after. unless it requires burnin, which from what a few people told me so far, results are same. All of the tested units are different unit, since the shop sells them quite fast. all consistently gave me same result, airy bass without substance, and doesnt goes as low as ck10, much less than ddm. when i tried fibass, it does goes very low. its the kind of bass that u only get from ddm (from iem), or very good open cans with very good low end extensions.
one of the tracks i used to compare bass is from shikata akiko's album, haikyo to rakuen, track 3. MARE (Andante molto espressivo). when the bass came in during the intro, it starts very low and goes from sound to vibration. so far out of all iems i tried, only fibass and ddm delivers the sound up until the vibration, most just produce the sound. ck10 can produce the vibration if eq'd more than 5db, but already distorted at that amount.

 

[james444]

 
Quote:

Well, not necessarily.  I mean he's comparing bass of the DDM to the e-Q7.  I think it might have more to do with expectations than being broken.  There is the idea of how much should be there and overall balance of sound.  I too may call the e-Q7 slightly lean, but only slightly.  However, I may call something like the DDM or many other bass strong earphones, overwhelming.  Some earphones have a very thick presence, unnaturally so.  To come from one of these to the e-Q7, the e-Q7 would perceptibly have very little.  To say it is incorrect would be a stretch though.  There may simply be the expectation of retaining what he already had in excess.  Could the bass on the e-Q7 be fuller?  Well, sure, why not.  It could be.  Should it be?  Meh...  That's a matter of preference.
 
Could something be damanged?  Maybe.

 
Of course you're right vs. the DDM, these are bass monsters if you wear them sealed. But he's claiming the e-Q7 have only half the bass of a CK10 and a quarter of the FI-BA-SS. And that's simply not the case with mine.

 

[kuraninja]

Wow again one really detailed review

Love to read your review